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Lowest capacity service bus?

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TheSel

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The Bristol Cityline 8 seat Technobuses. Borrowed shot but think I'm driving it !View attachment 77997
Are you sure they were eight seaters? I'm not arguing, as I never went on one of that batch, but these which (First) PMT operated in Birkenhead were definitely nine seaters.

1589641415013.png

And way back, mid to late 1960s (long before the "Minibus Revolution"), Crosville operated two of these Harrington bodied (12 seat) Commers, one in Bala and one in Pwllheli, on rail replacement services. SCP2 here - in private ownership after withdrawal, with and without destination equipment.

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TheSel

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That's them:

13293240335_d0de999e48_b.jpg

Technobus in Merseytravel livery - not my photo
No, Sir - that's one of the second batch on Merseytravel services - operated in St Helens by Selwyns of Runcorn. That batch seated 11. See posts #32 and #33 for the earlier, smaller ones.
 

MotCO

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Are you sure they were eight seaters? I'm not arguing, as I never went on one of that batch, but these which (First) PMT operated in Birkenhead were definitely nine seaters.

View attachment 78011

And way back, mid to late 1960s (long before the "Minibus Revolution"), Crosville operated two of these Harrington bodied (12 seat) Commers, one in Bala and one in Pwllheli, on rail replacement services. SCP2 here - in private ownership after withdrawal, with and without destination equipment.

View attachment 78012

View attachment 78013
Similar buses also operated on Orpington to Biggin Hill routes by North downs. One was FPM282C, but not sure about the other. Both photos are on Flickr (not my photos)
 

Tom B

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Tangentially, buses seem to have many fewer seats in general, especially in London.

I remember LRT having Tridents which seated 82 and with standees could take in excess of 100; the equivalent London tridents were 62-seaters I believe.
 

MotCO

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Tangentially, buses seem to have many fewer seats in general, especially in London.

I remember LRT having Tridents which seated 82 and with standees could take in excess of 100; the equivalent London tridents were 62-seaters I believe.

But weren't LRT's the long version, and there was only one set of doors.
 

High Dyke

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Lincolnshire Road Car had a batch of 12-seat Freight Rover minibuses. Ironically they were too small for me to drive. Management didn't believe me when I refused to drive one in service, and they had to send to head office for a copy of my licence to prove I was telling the truth.
 

Eyersey468

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Lincolnshire Road Car had a batch of 12-seat Freight Rover minibuses. Ironically they were too small for me to drive. Management didn't believe me when I refused to drive one in service, and they had to send to head office for a copy of my licence to prove I was telling the truth.
Why were they too small for you to drive?
 

randyrippley

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Just checked the Mountain Goat website, their original Transits for use on the Kirkstone pass were 12-seaters.
Begs the question of what did Ribble use previously?
 

Jordan Adam

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What about a Chrysler Grand Voyager...

 

PG

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What about a Chrysler Grand Voyager...

I'll say that doesn't fit with the OP criteria
I'm going to define the qualifying criteria as:
* Proper fitted destination blind/display
* Power door(s)
* Ticket machine fitted
Besides which I think the driver of that vehicle is likely to fall foul of some regulation or other due to part of the windscreen being obstructed with what I presume is an attempt at displaying a destination!
 

Jordan Adam

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I'll say that doesn't fit with the OP criteria

Besides which I think the driver of that vehicle is likely to fall foul of some regulation or other due to part of the windscreen being obstructed with what I presume is an attempt at displaying a destination!

Fair point, i had forgotten that by the time i had read through the thread! Still a interesting one to post regardless.

Indeed, even them i'm not sure on the legalities of a car being used on a registered public service that would normally be operated by a Solo.
 

PG

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Fair point, i had forgotten that by the time i had read through the thread! Still a interesting one to post regardless.

Indeed, even them i'm not sure on the legalities of a car being used on a registered public service that would normally be operated by a Solo.
Yes I think the legality or otherwise of using a car on a registered service would merit discussion on a different thread to avoid going well off-topic!
 

Observer

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'sgi', I believe they were a community bus operator in and around Leeds/Huddersfield. I seem to remember they had a few Wright Crusader Dennis Darts but with most of the seats removed to comply with the regulations at the time which stated community operators couldn't operate vehicles with more than 16 seats.... or something along those lines!
Wasn't even a community interest company at the start at it, it ran on a restricted O-license which meant that they could only have 16 seats.

I recall they also had some long DAF Mylennium vehicles that also had that treatment given to them.

When they were allowed those section 22 community permits they did reseat the Dart to something normal.

Quite a strange operation anyway! The Traffic Commissioner eventually put an end to them although even they found it awkward to deal with due to the lack of powers they had.

Leeds-based SGI Community Transport CIC (SGICT) has been ordered to pay 3,850 by Traffic Commissioner (TC) Kevin Rooney, for failing to operate bus services in accordance with its registered details.

In addition the TC banned it from using large buses on its seven large bus permits, and refused an application for an additional five permits.

SGICT, of The Crescent, Adel, Leeds, had been called before the TC at a Leeds Public Inquiry, but failed to attend.

The TC said that SGICT’s Director Dale Steel had a short but already chequered history operating PSVs. On 11 January 2013 he was the sole director of Steel Group Investments, which was granted a restricted PSV O-Licence. It quickly came to his attention that Mr Steel was using the licence, which authorised vehicles of nine-16 seats, to operate at least one full-size single-deck bus.

It became apparent that he had ceased using the bus under his restricted licence and it was being used by SGICT under Section 22 permits. Mr Steel’s offer to surrender the restricted licence was accepted.

SGICT was called to a preliminary hearing on 19 March 2014 as a result of complaints and concerns in relation to service reliability, the company’s response to VOSA’s concerns, and social media material posted by the company and/or its agents suggesting it was in some way in a dispute with Arriva Yorkshire, some of which was grossly offensive. A formal warning was given.

The complaints continued, leading the DVSA to conduct a monitoring exercise.

While that exercise was ongoing, the DVSA’s customer contact centre received a complaint from a driver from Arriva Dewsbury relating to anti-competitive behaviour, alleging that SGICT drivers were instructed to stay in front of Arriva Buses at all times, causing them to speed and overtake unsafely.

Traffic Examiner Joanna Batley said that on Tuesday 31 March, she was on duty observing SGICT at Dewsbury Bus Station with her colleague Ann Anderson. A SGICT vehicle pulled on to the stand at 1300hrs, displaying on its destination board route 284 to Thornhill.

She saw that the vehicle was displaying an O-Licence identity disc in the name of Dean Hawkins, trading as Station Coaches, with whom SGICT shared an operating centre. She introduced herself to the driver, who said he was working for Dale Steel. He wasn’t aware of what sort of disc was in the window.

He pulled the vehicle off the stand to a layover area. He then returned to base, saying that he hadn’t been paid by Mr Steel and wasn’t happy to run the service without the correct licence disc.

SGICT had seven permits, but analysis of their timetables showed a PVR of 10. She monitored 97 journeys on two services in October. Forty-two ran more than one minute early, two ran more than five minutes late, and 15 failed to operate.

On 24 October a SGICT vehicle was not waiting at the timing point but on the opposite side of the road outside residential properties. The vehicle did not depart from the bus stop or attempt to wait at the bus stop. A passenger had to cross the road to pick up the SGICT service. When the Arriva bus arrived, the SGICT bus departed early.

For Mr Hawkins, Harry Bowyer said that his information was that the SGICT buses had been parked up since April.

Mr Hawkins said that he had borrowed a vehicle from SGICT following a breakdown. His disc had therefore been in the window, but he had gone on holiday and not realised the disc had stayed there when the vehicle was again used by SGICT.

The TC said that service deficiencies from June to October 2014 had compliance levels between 36% and 39%, dramatically below the 95% standard.

The allegations of predatory behaviour appeared to be confirmed by the evidence of TE Batley.

Were this a holder of a national PSV O-Licence, the holder’s repute would be very much in question. Loss of good repute was, though, not a legal ground for the withdrawal or revocation of a Section 22 bus permit.

It was clear that the performance and behaviour of SGICT fell very far below that expected of an operator of PSVs. Yet the legislation did not allow him to revoke the permit and disqualify the holder from applying for more. It might be that Parliament never envisaged a CIC operating in that way, but the fact that SGICT was registered as a CIC did not appear to have caused the business to adopt a high moral standard, nor to act with any degree of integrity.

The TC ordered the company to pay the maximum penalty of 550 per vehicle and attached a condition to the existing permits that no large bus can be used.
 

PG

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Have fixed it, should work now.
Thanks, it's now working for me :)
Looks to be a useful kind of motor with a cleverly designed transition from a narrower front axle to a wider rear one.
As someone who was brought up with forward control (front axle behind driver) the change to an Optare Solo occasionally resulted in a clouted kerb :oops: as the front width of a Solo was slightly less yet the front axle was still full width.
 

PG

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Wasn't even a community interest company at the start at it, it ran on a restricted O-license which meant that they could only have 16 seats.

I recall they also had some long DAF Mylennium vehicles that also had that treatment given to them.

When they were allowed those section 22 community permits they did reseat the Dart to something normal.

Quite a strange operation anyway! The Traffic Commissioner eventually put an end to them although even they found it awkward to deal with due to the lack of powers they had.

Thanks for that link, never realised the commissioners' lack of powers in that regard - every days a school day!
 

LancasterRed

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These cute things roaming around the Ribble Valley.

The 35 doesn't run anymore, but the buses are still in Preston Bus' control. The controversial 45 now runs using rented Solos.
 

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scotrail158713

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These cute things roaming around the Ribble Valley.

The 35 doesn't run anymore, but the buses are still in Preston Bus' control. The controversial 45 now runs using rented Solos.
I think Prentice Coaches have one of these. They tend to run on the 110 council contract service to Elphinstone. I want to say they have 19(?) seats.
 

F Great Eastern

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Smallest, actual city/town bus I have been on is the Solaris Alpino 8.6m in Poland.

In a two door format it can have as little as 10 seats. The one I was on was a 12 seater with two seats missing for some reason, I assume they had been broken or vandalised.
 

PG

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While not strictly meeting the OP's criteria a 3 seater Morris Marina bus operated by Bristol Omnibus on a dial-a-ride service when Bristol Parkway station opened in 1972.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/28431353@N02/6399580015/in/photolist-aKvwbt
Thanks for that, and although not meeting the OP criteria I'd say that is the smallest licenced PSV I've ever seen!
Seeing as how the caption details that they were PSV tested I wonder what counted as the means of communication with the driver - "Oi! driver"
 

LancasterRed

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Does the Carlisle Airport shuttle count? It's not exactly a public bus service but marketed as one.
 

OmniCity999

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I think Prentice Coaches have one of these. They tend to run on the 110 council contract service to Elphinstone. I want to say they have 19(?) seats.

The Prentice examples are (DF66 PSX) - B21F & (LO18 TXB) - B20F. Or were at least when new. I think they may both now be B20F
 
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High Dyke

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Why were they too small for you to drive?
I'm assuming that because of the way that PSV drivers licences were issued;
and that way back you could pass a PSV test without holding an ordinary (Category B) car licence;
@High Dyke wasn't permitted by their licence to drive a PSV (for hire or reward) which had <16 seats.
That was indeed the case. I had a car licence at the time of training, but the PSV licence criteria was applied. I qualified with a full manual licence. My late father didn't drive when he began on the buses in 1971, but they put him through the driver training - in due course - as he progressed from a conductor to a driver. We never owned a car during my youth so he'd never bothered to learn to drive prior to starting on the buses.
 

Eyersey468

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That was indeed the case. I had a car licence at the time of training, but the PSV licence criteria was applied. I qualified with a full manual licence. My late father didn't drive when he began on the buses in 1971, but they put him through the driver training - in due course - as he progressed from a conductor to a driver. We never owned a car during my youth so he'd never bothered to learn to drive prior to starting on the buses.
Thank you for the explanation @High Dyke every day is a school day as they say.
 
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