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LSL ScotRail push/pull set.

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On a visit to Crewe yesterday, I noted a Loco-hauled MK3 in ScotRail InterCity (1980s) livery. Would the recent acquisition of DBSO 9704 from DRS (also observed, still in full DRS) point towards a new LSL rake? IIRC 47712 is in an appropriate livery...
 
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matt

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On a visit to Crewe yesterday, I noted a Loco-hauled MK3 in ScotRail InterCity (1980s) livery. Would the recent acquisition of DBSO 9704 from DRS (also observed, still in full DRS) point towards a new LSL rake? IIRC 47712 is in an appropriate livery...

I thought it was the intention of the owners of 47712 (it is only on hire to Locomotive Services Ltd) to create a short push pull rake. I think they also bought a few (three?) mark 3s and a DBSO.
 

hexagon789

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Is the intention to fit 47712 with TDM, to operate as an actual push-pull set?

(Given the original BR/Brush two-wire simplified TDM equipment has almost certainly long gone and the DBSOs were all converted to the modern TDM system, so wouldn't be backwards compatible anyway.)
 

fgwrich

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I thought it was the intention of the owners of 47712 (it is only on hire to Locomotive Services Ltd) to create a short push pull rake. I think they also bought a few (three?) mark 3s and a DBSO.
They do, their vehicles are still over in the Crewe Heritage Centre. Though, as both operations largely have the same people at the helm (the owners of 712 + the Mk3s and DBSO), and LSL, something is seemingly afoot between the two operations. Hopefully these Mk3s will retain some Standard Class this time!
 

hexagon789

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They do, their vehicles are still over in the Crewe Heritage Centre. Though, as both operations largely have the same people at the helm (the owners of 712 + the Mk3s and DBSO), and LSL, something is seemingly afoot between the two operations. Hopefully these Mk3s will retain some Standard Class this time!
A realistic set could be:

47712 - 3 TSOs - Composite - DBSO

(The sets were reduced to 5-coaches for a period in 1986 after the FO were converted to CO, but then made back up to 6 mostly in 1987, sometimes with a Mk2D TSO interloper.)
 

hexagon789

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On a visit to Crewe yesterday, I noted a Loco-hauled MK3 in ScotRail InterCity (1980s) livery. Would the recent acquisition of DBSO 9704 from DRS (also observed, still in full DRS) point towards a new LSL rake? IIRC 47712 is in an appropriate livery...
It seems it would but with 9707, LSL posted this on their Facebook page today:


DBSO 9707, the final vehicle for LSLs' ScotRail push-pull set, has been released from the paint shop today.

We have now assembled a six-coach set to operate with Crewe Diesel Preservation Groups' locomotive 47712.

311495539_182967097570190_4587402946794409456_n.jpg
(Photo of Mk2F DBSO 9707 repainted into BR ScotRail Express livery.)
 

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hexagon789

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Now there’s a sight I didn’t think I’d ever see again. :)
And me!

Apparently it will even be push-pull capable, though seemingly not with the original Brush/BR two-wire system (I doubt that was feasible tbh.)

I also imagine there will be a 95mph limit with 47712, given the very restrictive way in which 100mph was officially authorised back in the day.
 

MiNi

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I think it was always the plan to return the set to as the same as the olden days of push pull on the Edinburgh -Glasgow/Aberdeen shove sets. It's been in the long term planning for it.712 was restricted to 75 mph before it's new bogies and tyres were fitted.
 

43096

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I wonder if ScotRail / Transport Scotland have given permission for the ScotRail name to be used?
 

pdeaves

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For strict historical accuracy, should there be a corridor connector on the DBSO? (genuine question). Not that I object to the 'new look' either way! :)
 

hexagon789

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I think it was always the plan to return the set to as the same as the olden days of push pull on the Edinburgh -Glasgow/Aberdeen shove sets. It's been in the long term planning for it.712 was restricted to 75 mph before it's new bogies and tyres were fitted.
I hadn't realised that was an aim, it seemed to be more dream-like than a possible reality.

It will be very nice to see it out up here.

I wonder if thet are they planning an appearance in time for ScotRail's 40th anniversary as a brand next year. Or for when the livery turns 40 a littlr further on.

For strict historical accuracy, should there be a corridor connector on the DBSO? (genuine question). Not that I object to the 'new look' either way! :)
Yes, but they were removed when the vehicles passed to the GEML and the requirements for front-end lights, note the marker above where the gangway connection would be, means refitting isn't practical.
 

Cowley

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For strict historical accuracy, should there be a corridor connector on the DBSO? (genuine question). Not that I object to the 'new look' either way! :)

Yes that’s true. I didn’t clock it first because I’m used to seeing them without one these days.
 

fgwrich

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For strict historical accuracy, should there be a corridor connector on the DBSO? (genuine question). Not that I object to the 'new look' either way! :)
Being completely strict on historical accuracy, the livery should be using Intercity Falcon Grey and not black too. Given the way those cabs were (very) heavily rebuilt by RVEL, I’d be surprised if they could easily re-instate the original corridor connection now.
 

Cowley

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Those little deflectors next to the windscreens are interesting. Does anyone know what they’re for?
 

hexagon789

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Those little deflectors next to the windscreens are interesting. Does anyone know what they’re for?
They are to prevent the wipers sliding off the window when propelling! ;)

Only added when they were transferred to the GEML and the gangways removed.

I understand the removal of the gangway altered the leading airflow and caused problems with the wipers being blown off at speed, hence the 'blinkers' to stop that.
 

Strathclyder

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Looks fantastic and will look even better with 47712 shoving at the other end. Thumbs up from me.

I wonder if ScotRail / Transport Scotland have given permission for the ScotRail name to be used?
I imagine that they have, given that 712 already carries the ScotRail name.
 

D6968

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I imagine that they have, given that 712 already carries the ScotRail name.
Is 47765 still in Scotrail livery? I really wouldn’t have its no different to the likes of say 50031 being in it’s current fictional Intercity livery.
 

D6968

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I believe so, but it never carried that in BR days.

The only ScotRail Express livery locos were the 47/7s and the sole 47/4 - 47461.
I know it wasn’t a livery carried by that particular example, just wondering if it still carries it.
 

hexagon789

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I know it wasn’t a livery carried by that particular example, just wondering if it still carries it.
Sorry.

In answer to your question, there is a photo dated from 10 days ago on the loco's own dedicated Facebook page - in the photo she is still wearing ScotRail.
 

alexl92

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The set looks amazing. Surely though they’ll have to have a second TDM-fitted loco? Seems like spending all that money to refurbish this set to a high standard, but only having one loco able to work with it seems like a bit of a wild idea?!
 

43096

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The set looks amazing. Surely though they’ll have to have a second TDM-fitted loco? Seems like spending all that money to refurbish this set to a high standard, but only having one loco able to work with it seems like a bit of a wild idea?!
The DBSO is not TDM fitted: it was converted to Blue Star by DRS. I suspect the solution is to fit Blue Star to the 47 and Mark 3s.
 

hexagon789

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The set looks amazing. Surely though they’ll have to have a second TDM-fitted loco? Seems like spending all that money to refurbish this set to a high standard, but only having one loco able to work with it seems like a bit of a wild idea?!
The DBSO is not TDM fitted: it was converted to Blue Star by DRS. I suspect the solution is to fit Blue Star to the 47 and Mark 3s.
Some 47s had Green Spot which is very similar to Blue Star, mostly some wiring differences.

So I imagine fitting Blue Star to the locos is not too difficult.
 

VEP3417

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scotrail livery still looks very smart all these years later, i seem to prefer it to intercity livery for some reason, the last time i personally saw a dbso it was in anglia livery :lol:8-) but nice to see all these retro liveries on railtours now
 

D365

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The DBSO is not TDM fitted: it was converted to Blue Star by DRS. I suspect the solution is to fit Blue Star to the 47 and Mark 3s.
Indeed - even if it were possible, it would be a fruitless exercise to fit TDM, given that it's being ripped out of Mk3s, Mk4s and (eventually) the Class 90s.
 

12LDA28C

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Some 47s had Green Spot which is very similar to Blue Star, mostly some wiring differences.

So I imagine fitting Blue Star to the locos is not too difficult.
Fitting Blue Star to the loco(s) will not be required as the Blue Star system on the DBSO and stock has been modified to work with the Green Circle system on the 47.

Although 47712 will naturally be the dedicated loco for this set, this should mean that any Green Circle fitted loco will be able to work in push-pull mode with the DBSO.

A tour is pencilled in early next year following main line testing which will commence shortly.

And me!

Apparently it will even be push-pull capable, though seemingly not with the original Brush/BR two-wire system (I doubt that was feasible tbh.)

I also imagine there will be a 95mph limit with 47712, given the very restrictive way in which 100mph was officially authorised back in the day.

47s are perfectly capable of reaching well in excess of 100mph and not just the 47/7s which were authorised for this speed.

Whether authorised or not, when the 47/7s migrated south to T&C services and then the 'Mule' as well as on Parcels trains and hired in for IC / XC services, many drivers took advantage of the sign in the cab which read 'Max Speed 100mph' despite it not being officially sanctioned on any other routes than those approved in Scotland.
 
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hexagon789

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Fitting Blue Star to the loco(s) will not be required as the Blue Star system on the DBSO and stock has been modified to work with the Green Circle system on the 47.

Although 47712 will naturally be the dedicated loco for this set, this should mean that any Green Circle fitted loco will be able to work in push-pull mode with the DBSO.

A tour is pencilled in early next year following main line testing which will commence shortly.
The primary difference is a 180 degree rotation of the cable if I read correctly.

So I imagine it was a very easy fix.

47s are perfectly capable of reaching well in excess of 100mph and not just the 47/7s which were authorised for this speed.

Whether authorised or not, when the 47/7s migrated south to T&C services and then the 'Mule' as well as on Parcels trains and hired in for IC / XC services, many drivers took advantage of the sign in the cab which read 'Max Speed 100mph' despite it not being officially sanctioned on any other routes than those approved in Scotland.
Oh I'm well aware of that, but officially the ceiling was 95mph.

Even the 47/7s were not 100mph locos, as was explained to me, rather they were specially authorised to operate at 100mph on the Edinburgh-Glasgow line with special maintenance. If the maintenance lapsed, the officially reverted to 95mph again.

I don't believe the cab desk sign, nor data panels were altered, just a red plate denoting the modification was applied to the can doors.

Did see a photo of same somewhere.

The field diverts were also modified for 100mph running.


As it is, I don't see authority for 100mph being granted, if it was even something considered.
 

d9009alycidon

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I would imagine if this was being prepared for railtour duty that there would need to be a dedicated catering vehicle, any plans for that? In service a Mk.2D Micro-buffet was used on Aberdeen services, but I would think a mk3 catering vehicle would be used for future excursion use
 
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