LU announcements regarding 'regulating the service'

[meolebrace]

Driver...we are held here (West Ham) for 68 seconds to regulate service.

Never heard that before.

How come?

 

[jyte]

Train behind you is late and TfL wants to hide that fact and even out the gaps between the services by making yours late. Seems counterproductive, but they do it a LOT.

At least that's what platform staff and drivers have told me.

 

[yorkie]

It's to provide an even interval service and avoid large gaps (and potential for overcrowding).

I've heard it a few times and I live in Yorkshire; it's not new nor uncommon.

 

[Ianno87]

It's to provide an even interval service.

I've heard it a few times and I live in Yorkshire; it's not new nor uncommon.

Which is what TfL are measured on performance wise. As that's what almost all tube passengers care about rather than how late an individual train is against the non-published timetable.

 

[jyte]

non-published timetable.

It is published somewhere. I found a PDF copy of the bakerloo line timetable on their website once about 3 years ago, but it was utter garbage with trains arriving whenever the wanted to and not following it at all! - ultimately that's what the tube is, it's turnup and go. People don't really care about the timetable as long as there's a train every 2-3 minutes.

 

[yorkie]

It is published somewhere. I found a PDF copy of the bakerloo line timetable on their website once about 3 years ago,....

It's not a public timetable in any meaningful sense.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables

Working Timetables (WTT)
Working Timetables (WTT) are the rail industry version of public timetables. They show all movements on the Tube network including empty trains and train movements in and out of depots.

Working Timetables include identification codes for each train, times at locations other than stations (eg junctions) and do not necessarily show times for all stations where a train is scheduled to stop.

Important: These timetables are made available for rail industry professionals and should not be confused with the passenger version which is available using Journey Planner

 

[306024]

Driver...we are held here (West Ham) for 68 seconds to regulate service.

Never heard that before.

How come?

It is a common occurrence on the Jubilee at West Ham. Train leaves Stratford to vacate the platform for an inbound train, but ahead at North Greenwich another train will be starting it’s westbound journey. Waiting at West Ham evens out the service frequency.

Best announcement ever was on the Jubilee line. Driver...we are instructed to make an announcement if we stand at a red signal for more than 30 seconds, ........ so this is it.

 

[jyte]

It's not a public timetable in any meaningful sense.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables

Fair fair...I should have said I found it purely by accident - I wasn't looking for it and yes they definitely don't make it obvious.

 

[Daniel]

As others have said trains are regulated to (try to) ensure even gaps between trains. It doesn’t matter if the whole line is 20mins late as a customer we’ll still see exactly the same train intervals, theoretically.

If you’re asking why the driver was so specific with 68 seconds it’s because the Jubilee (and Northern) use a signalling system called TBTC which has an in cab screen which, along with other information, shows the driver how long (in terms of a countdown clock) until they receive a target point, (equivalent to a green signal).

 

[meolebrace]

And...also a new announcement at Stratford....'if a passenger falls ill, please let them off the train as we can care better for them on the platform'

If in full cardiac arrest etc...they are going nowhere.

 

[Hyphen]

it was utter garbage with trains arriving whenever the wanted to and not following it at all!

If there had been earlier disruption, I think a lot of that will be necessitated to recover the service.

Curiously enough, I once planned an afternoon out on the Met, from Aldgate to the ends of all but the Uxbridge branches, using the WTT. Every single train arrived/departed within a couple of minutes of the plan, even down to the train service numbers...!

 

[Lrd]

If there had been earlier disruption, I think a lot of that will be necessitated to recover the service.

Curiously enough, I once planned an afternoon out on the Met, from Aldgate to the ends of all but the Uxbridge branches, using the WTT. Every single train arrived/departed within a couple of minutes of the plan, even down to the train service numbers...!

I would hope so, seeing as though that's what the signallers and drivers run to. The vast majority of time I am running to timetable, easily 90-95% of the time. Losing the odd 30 seconds here and there can cause you to be 10 minutes down by your destination if you lose your path.

 

[bramling]

It is published somewhere. I found a PDF copy of the bakerloo line timetable on their website once about 3 years ago, but it was utter garbage with trains arriving whenever the wanted to and not following it at all! - ultimately that's what the tube is, it's turnup and go. People don't really care about the timetable as long as there's a train every 2-3 minutes.

It certainly isn’t garbage, although some lines are more prone to late running than others.

The Northern is pretty solid nowadays, and was even before the resignalling. Even the Vic runs pretty much to the second.

By contrast the Picc is very prone to running late, as is the Met especially during the peaks.

Different lines have different characteristics which make them more vulnerable to late running and how disruptions affect the service. The Northern for example rarely goes totally up the wall as the branch setup means there are often options to divert round a problem, plus a problem on one branch often means only half the overall service is affected. By contrast a problem on the Picc will quickly start to affect the whole line.

 

[bramling]

It's to provide an even interval service and avoid large gaps (and potential for overcrowding).

I've heard it a few times and I live in Yorkshire; it's not new nor uncommon.

I wouldn’t place too much emphasis on the use of the word regulating. In LU jargon this word has a very specific meaning, which is when the signaller (or signalling system) holds trains in such a way as to even out gaps, even if this means making a train late.

However, many drivers use the term to describe a wide range of things. Being held at a red signal when the train is running a minute or two early isn’t being regulated in the strictest sense. For all one knows a train could have been signalled out of its origin early and simply being held at the next location back to right time. Or it could even be booked stand time in the timetable.

Regulating is a word some drivers latch on to and use without actually realising what is meant!

 

[Mojo]

And...also a new announcement at Stratford....'if a passenger falls ill, please let them off the train as we can care better for them on the platform'

If in full cardiac arrest etc...they are going nowhere.

That is not true. The only reason not to remove someone from a train is if they have a spinal injury. If they are in the active stage of a seizure (“fitting”) or too large to be moved then it is possible to wait for it to be an appropriate time to remove them. If they cannot be moved there and then for any of the aforementioned three reasons, then the train would be moved to an appropriate location for ambulance teams to attend and remove them from the train.

 

[philthetube]

And...also a new announcement at Stratford....'if a passenger falls ill, please let them off the train as we can care better for them on the platform'

If in full cardiac arrest etc...they are going nowhere.

Still better off off the train, no harm is going to be done by quickly moving them and more space available to work on them away from cramped conditions, also you have to consider the likelihood of additional illness to people on following trains if they are forced to stand in cramped conditions in a tunnel for a period of time.

 

[Ianno87]

It certainly isn’t garbage, although some lines are more prone to late running than others.

The Northern is pretty solid nowadays, and was even before the resignalling. Even the Vic runs pretty much to the second.

By contrast the Picc is very prone to running late, as is the Met especially during the peaks.

Different lines have different characteristics which make them more vulnerable to late running and how disruptions affect the service. The Northern for example rarely goes totally up the wall as the branch setup means there are often options to divert round a problem, plus a problem on one branch often means only half the overall service is affected. By contrast a problem on the Picc will quickly start to affect the whole line.

I stood on the westbound Central Line platform at Stratford a couple of years ago for 45 minutes and compared the working timetable to what was happening on a "typical" day. I think the whole service was running about 2-3 minutes late, with at least one train missing entirely in the period. The latter is the only thing anyone else on the platform actually noticed, as it created a notably longer gap,on the service headway.

 

[bramling]

I stood on the westbound Central Line platform at Stratford a couple of years ago for 45 minutes and compared the working timetable to what was happening on a "typical" day. I think the whole service was running about 2-3 minutes late, with at least one train missing entirely in the period. The latter is the only thing anyone else on the platform actually noticed, as it created a notably longer gap,on the service headway.

What will be found is that if everything is late, perhaps over 10 minutes, although this may not initially be noticeable to the passenger, eventually things like short meal reliefs or missed step backs will start to bite, which will mean adjustments occur. These adjustments may well be very noticeable to passengers who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, as it may mean trains being put away or whatever, leading to gaps.

There’s another subtle thing that may be noticeable to passengers if the service is running late. On conventional lines it’s likely the train won’t be held to time anywhere, so the overall journey time could well be quicker. If you’re on some of the ATO lines it is also likely to mean the train will be going flat out with minimum station dwell times (on the Vic Line there will be no coasting, and on the Seltrac lines no velocity ceilings imposed). If the driver isn’t hanging about with the doors this can lead to a very rapid journey compared to normal.

 

[rebmcr]

And...also a new announcement at Stratford....'if a passenger falls ill, please let them off the train as we can care better for them on the platform'

If in full cardiac arrest etc...they are going nowhere.

Paramedics will move patients off trains (where they would otherwise be left in situ) in order to avoid 1000s of passengers being stuck in hot tunnels, causing chain reactions of falling ill.

 

[Mojo]

Paramedics will move patients off trains (where they would otherwise be left in situ) in order to avoid 1000s of passengers being stuck in hot tunnels, causing chain reactions of falling ill.

Not just paramedics, staff are expected to, unless any of the three exceptions detailed above apply, then the train would be moved where possible (unless say assistance is arriving within a couple of minutes).

 

[Clip]

Not just paramedics, staff are expected to, unless any of the three exceptions detailed above apply, then the train would be moved where possible (unless say assistance is arriving within a couple of minutes).

indeed - its much easier to help someone and deploy the AED whilst on an open platform than it is to try and do so on a cramped carriage

 

[LU_timetabler]

I wouldn’t place too much emphasis on the use of the word regulating. In LU jargon this word has a very specific meaning, which is when the signaller (or signalling system) holds trains in such a way as to even out gaps, even if this means making a train late.

However, many drivers use the term to describe a wide range of things. Being held at a red signal when the train is running a minute or two early isn’t being regulated in the strictest sense. For all one knows a train could have been signalled out of its origin early and simply being held at the next location back to right time. Or it could even be booked stand time in the timetable.

Regulating is a word some drivers latch on to and use without actually realising what is meant!

Is absoloutely spot on with this.
Further information:
If you do have a look through the published timetables, anywhere you see a letter in the middle of a station departure time, means there will be extra waiting time at that station. This is usually to even out the intervals - so it could be regarded as regulating. Other times due to delays on other trains behind a train may be held to even out the service - this is definitely regulating. Also what the timetable does not show easily but what is there is extra run time. If you look at quoted journey time between stations in the front of the published timetable, you may then find there are places where the timetable shows the train taking longer, this is where either a stand has been put in at a non-published location, or an additional run-time has been inserted, often to correct timings around a junction or entering the crossovers at a terminal station, or possibly to give an even service (which would make it regulating again). Therefore whatever the actual reason for a wait is, unless it is an indefinite sit and wait due to an incident drivers will say they are being regulated - though technically they may not be, or they might be but they won't necessarily know whether it is timetabled or line controller commanded as the signalling system on some lines can be set to automatically regulate at certain locations no matter what the timetable says.
Places I can virtually gurantee you will have a longish wait - Baker Street on the Met, Earl's Court and Barking on the District, Queen's Park on the Bakerloo, Acton Town on the Picc, Aldgate on the Circle, Edgware Road and or Baker Street on the Circle and Hammersmith & City. Leytonstone on Central. If you don't get a long wait at these places - the train is late, but the rest of the service is not AND there is no driver changeover.

 

[Romilly]

On London buses, the corresponding announcements I have heard recently now have no reference to regulating the service but say something like: "The driver has been instructed to wait at this bus stop for a short while to even out the service." I couldn't help thinking that "even out" was plainer English than "regulate".

 

[rebmcr]

On London buses, the corresponding announcements I have heard recently now have no reference to regulating the service but say something like: "The driver has been instructed to wait at this bus stop for a short while to even out the service." I couldn't help thinking that "even out" was plainer English than "regulate".

"Even out gaps in the service" is also used on the S Stock's prerecorded announcements.

 

[Rogmi]

On the Northern line, not making an announcement if the train was held for more than 30 seconds could lead to discipliniary action, go on a driver's record, etc. Detection was often carried out by spies (managers or light duty rail staff) either hiding out of sight at a station (Kennington was a good example, where trains were usually held to time) or riding on the train. I assume that the same went on on other lines.

 

[Mojo]

On the Northern line, not making an announcement if the train was held for more than 30 seconds could lead to discipliniary action, go on a driver's record, etc. Detection was often carried out by spies (managers or light duty rail staff) either hiding out of sight at a station (Kennington was a good example, where trains were usually held to time) or riding on the train. I assume that the same went on on other lines.

It is a standard company-wide policy. Assessments are carried out by experienced mystery shoppers working for a global market research company and carried out in line with the Market Research Society code of conduct. Announcements only have to be made within 30 seconds whilst stopped between stations; in the platform this is increased to 90 seconds.

 

[rmt4ever]

On the Northern line, not making an announcement if the train was held for more than 30 seconds could lead to discipliniary action, go on a driver's record, etc. Detection was often carried out by spies (managers or light duty rail staff) either hiding out of sight at a station (Kennington was a good example, where trains were usually held to time) or riding on the train. I assume that the same went on on other lines.

Nobody has ever been disciplined for not doing this. It’s scare mongering from the company. If there is conversation between signaller, station staff etc going on the passenger announcement is lowest priority. It’s not a safety issue. If they ever tried to discipline a Driver for not complying there would be certain industrial action.

Also the mystery shopper contract has been cancelled as it was costing £1000s. Managers in theory monitor now, but this is rare. Only a real jobsworth would shop one of their members of staff.

The idea of trying to use other train crew or railway staff on light duties to check up on and grass up colleagues was dropped ages ago for very obvious reasons!

 

[bnm]

It's to provide an even interval service and avoid large gaps (and potential for overcrowding).

I've heard it a few times and I live in Yorkshire; it's not new nor uncommon.

Very loud announcements are they? Or impressive hearing!