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LU Sub-Surface re-signalling: Will it end railtours?

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MatthewRead

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I understand once the surface sections of the Underground are fully re-signaled in 2023 it will mean railtours such as the Met1/Sarah Siddons, the 1938 tube stock and the Q stock (still undergoing restoration) will not be able to operate is this true?, if so that might explain why LU didn't bother to preserve a complete A stock or C stock etc.
 
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simple simon

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Because the Piccadilly line trains are not being replaced or converted for CBTC automated signalling so at least in theory the museum trains can travel on its tracks, which includes the Uxbridge branch where the signalling system will include colour lights for human driven trains and an extra blue light indicator to give drivers of computer-driven trains confidence that all is well. The blue lamp will illuminate instead of any of the other colours.

Likewise tracks used by Chiltern Railways services (Harrow On the Hill* - Amersham) are also being fitted with a signalling system that will be compatible with trains not equipped for CBTC.

However, how trains would get between these sections of railway and the depot at Ealing Common is the question mark. Especially between Rayners Lane and Harrow-On-The-Hill. I suppose that if there was a willingness (and funding) they could be hauled by service stock - possibly battery locomotives. Or travel at night under 'possession'. Oh and maybe use Neasden Depot as a base, for a few days.

(*Only the non-stop line along the four track section is being fitted with signals for human-driven trains ... some people may say that this is the 'fast' line but at a somewhat sluggish 60 mph the speed limit is actually slower than it used to be in the days when BR trains went all the way to Manchester)
 

bramling

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I understand once the surface sections of the Underground are fully re-signaled in 2023 it will mean railtours such as the Met1/Sarah Siddons, the 1938 tube stock and the Q stock (still undergoing restoration) will not be able to operate is this true?, if so that might explain why LU didn't bother to preserve a complete A stock or C stock etc.

They would be able to work if fitted with the equipment necessary to be compatible with the new signalling.

It’s been done for battery locomotives, and there are technical challenges getting it work on old stock let alone reliably, but the main issue is ££££££ which is something LU doesn’t have much to spare at the moment!

If someone can find the money then it could happen, subject to technical staff resource being available of course.

Having said that, get an emergency brake application and it will likely flat all the wheels. That can only happen too many times before it becomes unaffordable to keep repairing them. Unfortunately emergency brake interventions will be quite likely with the Thales system.
 

Nym

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Won't happen for anything except the Battery Locomotives and D78 RAT.

I doubt Sara Siddons will be done, the TRV and AIT aren't being done now if I recall correctly

TRV = Track Recording Vehicle (Still somehow running)
AIT = Asset Inspection Train (Shortly to be Razor Blades)
 

class387

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Would the 1938 stock not be used after this then? It would be a shame given the recent overhaul.
 

Nym

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Would the 1938 stock not be used after this then? It would be a shame given the recent overhaul.
It won't be fitted with S60 CBTC and isn't fitted with S40 TBTC, CL-ATP or DTG-R (Victoria Line), so could still be used on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines.

CBTC = Communications Based Train Control
TBTC = Transmission Based Train Control
CL-ATP = Central Line Automatic Train Protection
DTG-R = Distance to Go Radio
 

class387

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It won't be fitted with S60 CBTC and isn't fitted with S40 TBTC, CL-ATP or DTG-R (Victoria Line), so could still be used on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines.

CBTC = Communications Based Train Control
TBTC = Transmission Based Train Control
CL-ATP = Central Line Automatic Train Protection
DTG-R = Distance to Go Radio
Bakerloo would be good. The Piccadilly might be a bit difficult to fit around the normal service.
 

bluegoblin7

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It will still be able to operate on the Met Main between Harrow platform 2 and Amersham (only), and indeed this is generally accepted to be the plan for future heritage operations, including Sarah Siddons. The difficulty will be transferring the trains to and from that part of the Met.

Both the 1938 stock and Sarah (and the Q stock) have been costed for CBTC, but it is extremely unlikely that this will come to fruition on funding grounds.

There is capacity to operate the '38 stock on the Picc and this is most likely due to there being easy access from Ealing Common. Movements onto the Bakerloo will require arduous engineering hours transfers, and would be far more complicated than a transfer onto the Met (indeed, you'd have to transit via the Met...). Capacity on the Bakerloo is very tight down towards Elephant also.

All that said: the only accurate answer at the moment is "no-one knows". CBTC is running later and later, and until the first section goes live and settles down the possibilities are literally endless.
 
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rebmcr

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Movements onto the Bakerloo will require arduous engineering hours transfers

Could be Class 20-hauled via Aylesbury, Greenford, Willesden Junction?

Alternately, would it be possible for the engineering hours LU transfers to be dragged by modern stock? Not something I imagine could be done during passenger hours, but perhaps better than a full possession?
 

bluegoblin7

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Could be Class 20-hauled via Aylesbury, Greenford, Willesden Junction?

The 38 stock is not currently registered to transit over NR lines, and that would incur vastly greater expense than engineering hours transfer via the Piccadilly, Met and Jubilee. You'd also still need an EH transfer to get the train to Amersham (avoided by simply going into Ruislip, of course).

Alternately, would it be possible for the engineering hours LU transfers to be dragged by modern stock? Not something I imagine could be done during passenger hours, but perhaps better than a full possession?

This could be achieved with CBTC-fitted battery locomotives, onto the Met at least, within traffic hours (if they ever get them working...), and that is the most likely scenario (if the costs can be justified). As you would need something on either end you're going to start running into berth issues if you use passenger stock (notwithstanding potential coupling issues).
 

ijmad

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I wonder if some of the near-London heritage lines like The Watercress Line could run them, hauled by a steam or diesel loco.
 

simple simon

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By 'the Piccadilly line' do you also mean the former Aldwych branch?

the Piccadilly line is very busy and even on a Sunday the service is very frequent.


On the main topic of this thread, as I understand it some battery locomotives are to be fitted with CBTC equipment, so maybe they could haul passenger carriages - as happened in 1988 with a Gatwick Express InterCity rake of Mk 2 carriages?
 

bluegoblin7

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Fitting an additional, non-stop train along the Piccadilly on any day of the week is feasible, except during the peak.

Running a train to Aldwych is not feasible. Mk 2 stock is not cleared anywhere on LU.
 

bluegoblin7

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But it was managed quite safely in 1988!

I assume the huge upgrade programme to the network over the last thirty years has passed you by...?

Just because they fitted in the tunnels in 1988 it doesn’t mean they do now. What a ridiculous comment. The railway does not exist for jollies.
 

bluegoblin7

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I think this was simple simon's actual suggestion, before being jumped on...

My emphasis:

On the main topic of this thread, as I understand it some battery locomotives are to be fitted with CBTC equipment, so maybe they could haul passenger carriages - as happened in 1988 with a Gatwick Express InterCity rake of Mk 2 carriages?

Considering other comments made by this poster in the past and elsewhere, and the suggestion that it was done in 1998, it is very clear that they did indeed mean Mk2 coaching stock.

However... could the CBTC battery locomotives be attached to the 1938 Stock, I wonder...?

It is theoretically possible, although would require a safe method of working to be established, which doesn't exist. There would also need to be a way of powering the on board systems devised. All of this assumes that the problems with the CBTC battery locomotives are solvable too. Essentially it comes back to "Who pays?".
 

simple simon

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I think this was simple simon's actual suggestion, before being jumped on...

Thanks - Although the main driver for what I said was the Gatwick Express InterCity trains railtour I was thinking, in hope, of any and all trains, including the Q Stock - although in light of what Dstock7080 said about the platform edge nosing stones I wonder if the flare sided Q38 stock cars would now foul the platforms?

---------------

For those who do not know, the Q38 cars had a near identical physicality as the CO/CP and R stocks, although they were different electrically; also, many Q38's were rebuilt into R38's whilst the later R stocks were brand new and whilst very similar had a slightly different window arrangement.
 

Dstock7080

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However... could the CBTC battery locomotives be attached to the 1938 Stock, I wonder...?

The 1938TS could still have its shoes down, even if it's not providing traction nor a driving cab.
How would a passenger emergency alarm in the 1938 Stock be transmitted to the two battery locos when the ‘38 has an auto-coupler and the locos buckeye ?
 

rebmcr

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How would a passenger emergency alarm in the 1938 Stock be transmitted to the two battery locos when the ‘38 has an auto-coupler and the locos buckeye ?

Steward in the '38 cab with a radio? Honestly though, is a passenger alarm even 100% necessary on a non-public heritage special?
 

bionic

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I assume the huge upgrade programme to the network over the last thirty years has passed you by...?

Just because they fitted in the tunnels in 1988 it doesn’t mean they do now. What a ridiculous comment. The railway does not exist for jollies.

Best comment I've seen on here in a long time. Do people seriously think London Underground are losing any sleep puzzling about how to run heritage rolling stock for the benefit of a few chuffer nutters when they are currently undergoing massive financial problems, huge cuts and probably the biggest signalling upgrade in their history?


The railway does not exist for jollies.

Classic! :D
 
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