Luton Travelcard time restriction

[soil]

You mean from Bedford St. Johns? Would it not be reasonable to use Bedford?

No, for example for a journey such Lidlington - Hampstead Heath via West Hampstead.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oh I see, well that is unfortunate, you best get on to the relevant TOC about that. Any thoughts about using a Luton Off-Peak Travelcard on a service like the 0732 tomorrow, as it is not explicitly prohibited in the restriction code so it must be valid.

 

[soil]

Correct.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Care to try it?

 

[soil]

Care to try it?

Why would I want to visit Leicester?

 

[Qwerty133]

Why would I want to visit Leicester?

Cause it's better than anywhere else nearby

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Why would I want to visit Leicester?

Only you could know, the 0732 is from Luton.

 

[soil]

Only you could know, the 0732 is from Luton.

There must be quite a few 07:32 trains.

I thought we discussing a journey from Leicester on a train not stopping at Luton.

The restriction code states that you may only travel from Luton at 09:14 or later, so the 07:32 from Luton is not valid.

The validity of travel from other stations that aren't in the list is not stated.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The restriction says it is valid on the 0914 and all later trains. You said that if the restriction does not explicitly prohibit something, it is permitted. The 0732 from Luton is not explicitly prohibited, therefore it must be permitted, right?

 

[soil]

Luton, Bedford, et al are explicitly restricted.

Other stations, not listed, are not.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are they? All I see is a list of what is valid, nothing to say what isn't valid. By what you have said, you must agree that any train before 0914 is as valid as any after that because they are not explicitly prohibited.

 

[soil]

Are they? All I see is a list of what is valid, nothing to say what isn't valid. By what you have said, you must agree that any train before 0914 is as valid as any after that because they are not explicitly prohibited.

No that would be absurd. It is a restriction, ergo it restricts. If trains before the listed times were permitted, it wouldn't be a restriction at all.

There is no such logical necessity that the trains from Leicester, Bletchley, etc. be restricted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So are you actually saying that was isn't explicitly prohibited may, or may not, be permitted depending on what agenda you have?

 

[soil]

So are you actually saying that was isn't explicitly prohibited may, or may not, be permitted depending on what agenda you have?

The text states that travel from Bedford, Luton, and other stations is permitted after a certain time. Therefore travel from those stations is not permitted before that time.

This is an uncontroversial statement.

There is nothing stated about other stations, not in the list. According to some people in this thread, we should calculate the time that those trains pass the station on the restriction, although whether we should use the origin station of the ticket, or all times on the restriction, or something else, has not been clearly explained.

Furthermore, some tickets with this restriction will not involve travel via any of the stations on the list. For these tickets, there are no grounds to pick an arbitrary 'not valid before' time, and nobody has attempted to explain what restriction, if any, should apply to these routes.

My view is that per consumer contract law, where there is any ambiguity in the contract, it should be interpreted in favour of the consumer. You obviously have a different view.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The text states that travel from Bedford, Luton, and other stations is permitted after a certain time. Therefore travel from those stations is not permitted before that time....

There is no mention of what is not valid, only what is.

....There is nothing stated about other stations, not in the list....

So there is nothing to say that it is valid at all then?

....According to some people in this thread, we should calculate the time that those trains pass the station on the restriction, although whether we should use the origin station of the ticket, or all times on the restriction, or something else, has not been clearly explained.....

There are loads of restrictions like this, just look for a journey to, from or via London and see how many have restrictions not just from London but stations outside of London, no-one argues about those.

....Furthermore, some tickets with this restriction will not involve travel via any of the stations on the list. For these tickets, there are no grounds to pick an arbitrary 'not valid before' time, and nobody has attempted to explain what restriction, if any, should apply to these routes....

The restriction says when the ticket is valid, you do the maths. You have an issue with those restrictions I suggest you contact the TOC concerned so that they can alter them.

My view is that per consumer contract law, where there is any ambiguity in the contract, it should be interpreted in favour of the consumer. You obviously have a different view.

Okay, so why can't I use the 0732 from Luton on that ticket? If you are right about what is not explicitly prohibited, and there is NOTHING to explicitly prohibit it, why would it not be permitted?

 

[soil]

So there is nothing to say that it is valid at all then?

No, but an 'any permitted' ticket from say Stewartby with this restriction code is permitted via Bletchley. It would not be reasonable to state that that any permitted ticket is not valid via Bletchley, because this a time restriction, not a route restriction, which exist separately.

There are loads of restrictions like this, just look for a journey to, from or via London and see how many have restrictions not just from London but stations outside of London, no-one argues about those.

I am not sure what part of which restrictions you are referring to.

The restriction says when the ticket is valid, you do the maths. You have an issue with those restrictions I suggest you contact the TOC concerned so that they can alter them.

I don't have an issue, the restrictions work fine - they are restricted from the named stations before the specified times. If you want to go from Stewartby via Bletchley, for example, at 7am, then NRE will sell you an off-peak ticket. If that's a problem, it's certainly not my problem.

Okay, so why can't I use the 0732 from Luton on that ticket? If you are right about what is not explicitly prohibited, and there is NOTHING to explicitly prohibit it, why would it not be permitted?

But there isn't NOTHING to say it is not permitted. It is stated that trains from those stations are permitted after those times.

The corollary of that statement is that trains from those stations are not permitted before those times.

Otherwise they might as well replace the text with 'ooga booga bish bash bosh', because it would be equally meaningless.

It is the answer to the question 'when can I travel?', and the answer is 'from these stations after these times'. It is not an answer to 'when can I travel from Leicester?' or 'when can I travel from Stewartby', and given that these restriction codes are the only answer that we have, it is unreasonable to read any further restrictions beyond those plainly stated.

 

[tony_mac]

it is unreasonable to read any further restrictions beyond those plainly stated.

Again, that's just one opinion. I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret it as restricting travel via those routes at earlier times; even if the train doesn't stop.

I think that it would be extremely naive (and that's being kind!) for anyone to deliberately risk putting themselves in front of a magistrate with that argument - I really don't think it would end well.

 

[soil]

Again, that's just one opinion. I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret it as restricting travel via those routes at earlier times; even if the train doesn't stop.

At what earlier times?

I think that it would be extremely naive (and that's being kind!) for anyone to deliberately risk putting themselves in front of a magistrate with that argument - I really don't think it would end well.

The appropriate 'penalty' if travelling during peak times on an off-peak ticket is an excess to an anytime ticket. Not a trip to the magistrates court.

 

[tony_mac]

The appropriate 'penalty' if travelling during peak times on an off-peak ticket is an excess to an anytime ticket. Not a trip to the magistrates court.

Obviously that's assuming you don't pay the excess. If you would pay the excess anyway when you inevitably get challenged, what's the point of arguing about it?

 

[soil]

Obviously that's assuming you don't pay the excess. If you would pay the excess anyway when you inevitably get challenged, what's the point of arguing about it?

Well, you could sue for the return of the money.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....But there isn't NOTHING to say it is not permitted. It is stated that trains from those stations are permitted after those times....

The restriction states a train on which the ticket is valid, yes? And it states that all later trains are valid, yes? So where does it say that earlier trains are not valid? It doesn't.

....The corollary of that statement is that trains from those stations are not permitted before those times...

Ah, so you think that because it IMPLIES that it is prohibited, it is prohibited. even though it is not explicitly prohibited? Perhaps now we are getting somewhere.

Given that the ticket has no validity north of Luton, that it originates at Luton, that the restriction code states that trains at or after 0914 are valid and that you seem now to believe trains before 0914 are not valid, how can a ticket not valid before 0914 be used before 0914?

....Otherwise they might as well replace the text with 'ooga booga bish bash bosh', because it would be equally meaningless....

It might as well be written like that if some of the ways it is read are to be believed.

 

[soil]

The restriction states a train on which the ticket is valid, yes? And it states that all later trains are valid, yes? So where does it say that earlier trains are not valid? It doesn't.

Ah, so you think that because it IMPLIES that it is prohibited, it is prohibited. even though it is not explicitly prohibited? Perhaps now we are getting somewhere.

It is necessary that they are prohibited from these stations, otherwise the text has no meaning, and clearly that is not a reasonable argument.

It is not necessary that trains not calling at those stations be prohibited.

Further, nobody in this thread has explained what the validity of these tickets should be when the origin is not one of the named stations

Given that the ticket has no validity north of Luton, that it originates at Luton, that the restriction code states that trains at or after 0914 are valid and that you seem now to believe trains before 0914 are not valid, how can a ticket not valid before 0914 be used before 0914?

Such tickets can be used before 0914, according to NRE, on journeys that do not call at one of the named stations.

The restriction applies to the named stations before the named times.

Seems simple enough to me, there is no need to try and calculate passing times, or imagine words that aren't there.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is necessary that they are prohibited from these stations, otherwise the text has no meaning, and clearly that is not a reasonable argument....

So we can agree that no train before the 0914 from Luton (on a ticket from Luton) is valid?

....It is not necessary that trains not calling at those stations be prohibited....

There is no distinction in the restriction code between trains that call and trains that do not, only that all trains at or after 0914 are valid (except the explicitly mentioned 0919).

....Further, nobody in this thread has explained what the validity of these tickets should be when the origin is not one of the named stations....

If you maintain that there is validity, there is no supporting evidence of what that validity is. The restriction code tells us when the ticket is valid, by your own argument if it is not listed as valid it must be assumed that it is not (unless you wish to change your mind again).

....Such tickets can be used before 0914, according to NRE, on journeys that do not call at one of the named stations....

As previously mentioned, journey planners are only as good as the programming, I would be interested to see if you could provide a screen shot of NRE that shows a Luton Off-Peak Travelcard is valid on a train that passes through Luton before 0914 without stopping?

....The restriction applies to the named stations before the named times....

Indeed and we have a ticket from one of those named stations, Luton.

....Seems simple enough to me, there is no need to try and calculate passing times, or imagine words that aren't there.

Please explain? How can we know that a ticket, not valid before 0914, is valid if we do not know when the train passes? Also, given that there is no distinction between passing and stopping trains in the restriction code, the only way to believe passing trains are fine at all times is to believe that the restriction only applies to stopping trains. There are no words in the restriction code to support this theory, so who is imagining words that aren't there?

 

[All Line Rover]

Please explain? How can we know that a ticket, not valid before 0914, is valid if we do not know when the train passes? Also, given that there is no distinction between passing and stopping trains in the restriction code, the only way to believe passing trains are fine at all times is to believe that the restriction only applies to stopping trains. There are no words in the restriction code to support this theory, so who is imagining words that aren't there?

The restriction - "valid on the train shown and all later services" - clearly lists departures of trains. A train cannot depart a station if it does not stop there. Therefore the restriction "valid on 0914 train and all later services" does not apply to a train that does not stop at Luton. This does not require a leap of logic. This does not require inserting words that aren't there, or ignoring words that are there. It is a twist of logic to claim that the words 'train' and 'service' do not actually refer to departures but simply to an arbitrary point in time.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The restriction - "valid on the train shown and all later services" - clearly lists departures of trains. A train cannot depart a station if it does not stop there. Therefore the restriction "valid on 0914 train and all later services" does not apply to a train that does not stop at Luton. This does not require a leap of logic. This does not require inserting words that aren't there, or ignoring words that are there. It is a twist of logic to claim that the words 'train' and 'service' do not actually refer to departures but simply to an arbitrary point in time.

Okay, so from the yes camp we have we have the following to play with:

• The restrictions state what is valid.
• If validity is not mentioned we can assume there is no validity (corollary of the restriction).
• The valid trains/services are the 0914 and all later services.
• Trains that do not call are not services.
• Anything that is not explicitly prohibited is permitted, unless it is not.

Well, that's made it all crystal clear, I'm so glad we got this straightened out.

 

[maniacmartin]

I've resisted wading into this discussion until now, but...

The restriction - "valid on the train shown and all later services" - clearly lists departures of trains. A train cannot depart a station if it does not stop there.

I think the only way that makes any sense to interpret these rules with split tickets is that a train still departs from a station even if it does not call there. In the electronic timetables, there is a timing point at most stations that are passed through which I would class as the departure time.

 

[soil]

I've resisted wading into this discussion until now, but...

I think the only way that makes any sense to interpret these rules with split tickets is that a train still departs from a station even if it does not call there. In the electronic timetables, there is a timing point at most stations that are passed through which I would class as the departure time.

However in electronic systems, there is a distinction between restrictions that apply 'departing', 'arriving', and 'via'. These are clearly 'departing' restrictions.

It does not make sense to interpret the rules in a special way, when specific 'via' restrictions do exist, but have not been used here.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Can these 'electronic systems' show that a Luton Travelcard is valid for travel from Luton on a train that does not stop at Luton?

 

[RJ]

So long as the ticket covers the distance between Luton and London, it qualifies for a Condition 19c split. I think it is optimistic to assume that restriction code text as a whole accounts for the possibilities that right allows.

 

[jkdd77]

I've resisted wading into this discussion until now, but...



I think the only way that makes any sense to interpret these rules with split tickets is that a train still departs from a station even if it does not call there. In the electronic timetables, there is a timing point at most stations that are passed through which I would class as the departure time.

I agree with this interpretation.

In my view, there is a general problem where it is not always clear from restriction codes what the valid trains are if used by an unusual (but nevertheless valid) route, or from an intermediate station not listed in the restriction code (e.g. what is the first weekday train a Penzance- London Paddington '2X' SSR can be used on when starting short from Bristol Parkway?).

However, this is not really the case here, where the train does pass through a listed station, and think that the alternative interpretation that it is valid seems to be a case of wanting to 'have one's cake and eat it'!