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Luton: Why does it feel like a rundown Northern ex-mill town but is 45 minutes from London?

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bramling

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #3 originally in this thread.

Luton is a dump. Horrible. What I find really confusing is that it is like a northern town but 45 minutes form London. Why has the affluence passed Luton by?

That’s an interesting question I’d love to know the answer to. In fact I’d say Luton is worse than the Northern towns you refer to. It certainly resembles the stereotypically unattractive places like Blackburn or Burnley, but is massively more congested, and lacks some of the old characterful buildings even these places have.

Drive just 10 minutes from Luton and the contrast couldn’t be more stark arriving in a neighbouring town like Harpenden or Hitchin.
 
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AM9

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That’s an interesting question I’d love to know the answer to. In fact I’d say Luton is worse than the Northern towns you refer to. It certainly resembles the stereotypically unattractive places like Blackburn or Burnley, but is massively more congested, and lacks some of the old characterful buildings even these places have.

Drive just 10 minutes from Luton and the contrast couldn’t be more stark arriving in a neighbouring town like Harpenden or Hitchin.
I remember that Luton a few years ago had the nickname: "the only ex-mill town in the south". Rather fitting at the time, but many of the real mill towns in the north have since tidied their acts up and become quite desireable to those working in Manchester and Leeds.
 

DarloRich

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That’s an interesting question I’d love to know the answer to. In fact I’d say Luton is worse than the Northern towns you refer to. It certainly resembles the stereotypically unattractive places like Blackburn or Burnley, but is massively more congested, and lacks some of the old characterful buildings even these places have.

Drive just 10 minutes from Luton and the contrast couldn’t be more stark arriving in a neighbouring town like Harpenden or Hitchin.

I remember that Luton a few years ago had the nickname: "the only ex-mill town in the south". Rather fitting at the time, but many of the real mill towns in the north have since tidied their acts up and become quite desireable to those working in Manchester and Leeds.

I really don't understand it. It does have a Mill Town feel although my experience is more ex coal/ex steel towns in the north east. We don't have the Manchester effect on Teesside or Wearside.

I know Luton was historically a manufacturing town and that sector has contracted massively however i don't understand why that hasn't led to a change to an affluent London commuter town. Afterall it has rows and rows and rows of small terraced houses ideal for young people starting out. Could it be an ethnicity/demographic thing?
 

AlterEgo

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Luton feels like a northern mill town because of ethnic tensions between white people and second and third generation Islamic immigrants. It’s a dreadful place.
 

DarloRich

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Luton feels like a northern mill town because of ethnic tensions between white people and second and third generation Islamic immigrants. It’s a dreadful place.

i think that is part of it but the town is awful. Even with ethnic tensions the town should be a better place. it is so grotty.
 

Iskra

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Bizarre thread. There are plenty of unattractive places all over the country, proximity to London and its 'affluence' (obviously, nobody apart from Londoners has any money) do not prevent places being unpleasant. There are large swathes of London that I would describe as unpleasant.

Perhaps I'm weird but I find former mills more aesthetically pleasing than almost anything built in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.

Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.
 

AM9

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Bizarre thread. There are plenty of unattractive places all over the country, proximity to London and its 'affluence' (obviously, nobody apart from Londoners has any money) do not prevent places being unpleasant. There are large swathes of London that I would describe as unpleasant.

Perhaps I'm weird but I find former mills more aesthetically pleasing than almost anything built in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.

Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.
I could have guessed that somebody would take offence from the use of the 'N' word. However, none was intended nor implied from my post (or it seems from anybody's post since). The term 'mill town' itself is taken from the wool and cotton towns which happen to be largely in Yorkshire and Lancashire. As their industry contracted they went through a period of economic depression. From my travels in recent years, many of them have been revived with new employment opportunities and the relics of the former industries are still there in new employment or residential use. Luton on the other hand had grown into a town specialising in hat manufacture and in 20th century, large scale motor vehicles. Now the hats are largely gone and the Vauxhall operations are much less than in their heyday, the town has hit hard times, but unlike many northern post-industrial towns, doesn't seem to have found a new role.
 

Iskra

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I could have guessed that somebody would take offence from the use of the 'N' word. However, none was intended nor implied from my post (or it seems from anybody's post since). The term 'mill town' itself is taken from the wool and cotton towns which happen to be largely in Yorkshire and Lancashire. As their industry contracted they went through a period of economic depression. From my travels in recent years, many of them have been revived with new employment opportunities and the relics of the former industries are still there in new employment or residential use. Luton on the other hand had grown into a town specialising in hat manufacture and in 20th century, large scale motor vehicles. Now the hats are largely gone and the Vauxhall operations are much less than in their heyday, the town has hit hard times, but unlike many northern post-industrial towns, doesn't seem to have found a new role.

The originally quoted post is poorly worded, based on flawed stereotypes, I make no apology for calling that out.

As you say post industrial decline is not exclusively Northern, nor is it specific to mill towns. That is my point exactly.

Plenty of areas across the country have suffered due to the collapse of a major industry, whether that be steel in South Wales, coal in the midlands (as well as the North), dock workers in London or Liverpool, fishing in many coastal towns or shipbuilding on Tyneside or on the Clyde.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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Speaking as a Lutonian born and bred I can affirm that Luton is an absolute dump. There are many varied reasons for this, many going back to the 60's and 70's

First of all, Luton was "blessed" with the first undercover mall in the UK. It was just plonked right in the heart of the town, ensuring the destruction of many of the more interesting {and aesthetically pleasing} buildings. In short the Luton Arndale ripped the heart out of the town centre... There is an urban myth in Luton that any architect commissioned to build a new shopping centre is taken around the Luton Arndale and then told "that's what we don't want.

Then there is the collapse of manufacturing... Luton, and Dunstable with it, were home to Vauxhall/Bedford, Commer cars, SKF, electrolux, Leyland and many others... all now gone. There was nothing really done to attract new business to Luton, certainly not on the scale as in other southern manufacturing towns such as Reading

Then there is the inner ring road which took over 35 years to complete... completion being long after other towns had realised the error of such roads being bulldozed through... and bit by bit that road destroyed even more of the character of the Town Centre... in effect it acts more like a prison wall to contain the town centre so it can never escape and infect the rest of the town...

then comes the thorny issue of race relations. Whilst it is no longer politically correct to mention racial tensions, there is plenty in Luton... especially involving Muslims... Luton has a long history of militancy amongst it's Muslim population. I remember a Bingo hall in the Asian area of Luton being firebombed for being an affront to Islam {ok so it was a bit insensitive to call it Mecca Bingo but still...} then there was the kebab house that was forced to close because it called itself Kosher Kebabs... I well remember the debate raging about the Muslim population wanting ALL school dinners to be Halal... don't forget Luton is where the EDL started, and is where Tommy Robinson hails from... Whilst I don't condone his views or actions, I know full well how and why he became what he is...
who in hell would want to live in a town with tensions like that?

Then there is the council policy of "if it's green build on it" yes Luton has some lovely large parks... but in general on estates every last green patch has been or is planned to be built on.

In short Luton is a depressing place to live or work.... even now, 25 years after leaving the town, a depression descends over me if I even just pass it on the motorway

I wouldn't say Luton's a dump.... but the best way of going sightseeing is with your eyes tightly shut and a bag over your head!
 

cactustwirly

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It isn't just Luton, look at Slough, Stevenage, Bracknell, Dartford, Basildon, Gravesend, Tilbury and to a lesser extent Reading.
 

Iskra

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In answer to the original question- is it Luton’s proximity to London that has been part of its demise; London sucking the life out of the town as it obviously has a much better offering of just about everything.
 

si404

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Luton's north of Watford - it's in the north ;)

It fails at being much more than a dormitory and an airport wrt London's economic pull. Other belt-around London places like Bracknell, Hemel, Stevenage, etc were New Towns (or expanded as New Towns) and so have more business parks and the like designed in. And despite being part of 'England's Economic Heartland' - the largest urban area, geographically central in the area - it is treated as peripheral and edge to that too, almost as if it doesn't exist!

It's just constantly overlooked.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The gateway to the settlement - Luton Station is enough to make you despair in any case.

In reality - the acres of what should be ideal terracing houses for starting in life youngsters (with a reasonable enough commute in normal times) has not happened. I presume we can all ask , or work out why.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Perhaps I'm weird but I find former mills more aesthetically pleasing than almost anything built in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.

Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.

The interesting thing is that Trowbridge, Melksham, Westbury and Bradford on Avon would also come under as mill towns but not to the same extent as Huddersfield, Halifax, Todmorden, Brighouse and Batley were.

Luton feels like a northern mill town because of ethnic tensions between white people and second and third generation Islamic immigrants. It’s a dreadful place.

Then comes the thorny issue of race relations. Whilst it is no longer politically correct to mention ethnic tensions, there is plenty in Luton... especially involving Muslims... Luton has a long history of militancy amongst it's Muslim population. I remember a Bingo hall in the Asian area of Luton being firebombed for being an affront to Islam {ok so it was a bit insensitive to call it Mecca Bingo but still...} then there was the kebab house that was forced to close because it called itself Kosher Kebabs... I well remember the debate raging about the Muslim population wanting ALL school dinners to be Halal... don't forget Luton is where the EDL started, and is where Tommy Robinson hails from. I know full well how and why he became what he is.

Who in hell would want to live in a town with tensions like that?

What's possibly causing the tensions between the ethnical groups is the ever expanding zoneification that Luton seems to have which isn't benefitting anyone. I see it happening in Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford sooner or later.

Lets face it, these tensions will only become worse over time.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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The gateway to the settlement - Luton Station is enough to make you despair in any case.

In reality - the acres of what should be ideal terracing houses for starting in life youngsters (with a reasonable enough commute in normal times) has not happened. I presume we can all ask , or work out why.
hmmm... High Town, Park Town, Bury Park, the original parts of Farley Hill... all row after row of Victorian/ Edwardian terraces... then there are the "London Overspill" estates such as Lewsey Farm, Hockwell Ring, Farley Hill Estate, Wigmore/ Putteridge in Stopsley... Tithe Farm in Houghton Regis... all 50's/ early 60's council stock... considered the best sort of council stock to invest in {see Homes under the Hammer}... certainly it isn't the housing stock in itself that deters people from wanting to live in Luton and/ or depresses house prices... in fact the house prices in Luton in themselves should be reason enough to move to Luton... it has some of the cheapest house prices in the Home Counties!
 

Teflon Lettuce

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What's possibly causing the tensions between the ethnical groups is the ever expanding zoneification that Luton seems to have which isn't benefitting anyone. I see it happening in Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford sooner or later.

Lets face it, these tensions will only become worse over time.
but also remember, the segregation of the islamic community in Luton is self-imposed....
 

cactustwirly

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The interesting thing is that Trowbridge, Melksham, Westbury and Bradford on Avon would also come under as mill towns but not to the same extent as Huddersfield, Halifax, Todmorden, Brighouse and Batley were.





What's possibly causing the tensions between the ethnical groups is the ever expanding zoneification that Luton seems to have which isn't benefitting anyone. I see it happening in Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford sooner or later.

Lets face it, these tensions will only become worse over time.


Bradford-on-Avon is quite affluent, but the others aren't so nice.
But lets face it, I'd much rather live in somewhere like Trowbridge, Melksham, Halifax, Huddersfield etc than a southern ****hole like Luton.

In the southyou tend to get absolute ****holes or really affluent places and nowt in between.
Look at Reading, looks nice on the surface, lots of offices, nice town centre etc.
Then you drive to the housing estates towards the South/West of the the centre, and it all falls down...

It may not quite have the jobs, but Leicester is a hell of a lot nicer.
 

Busaholic

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I don't know Luton, but I've been to Basingstoke - just the once....
 

class387

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Luton is by far the worse town I've been to in the UK by far and as someone who visited there quite frequently I concur with the statements made by others fully. It has sort of become a joke in our school whenever we talk about crime, terrorism and generally horrible places
 

Busaholic

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I don't think Basingstoke is that bad...
I've just looked up the original 'crap towns' list from 2003, based on voting apparently, and Basingstoke came ninth, so I'm not the only one. Hull came top, interestingly, so, on that basis, Luton will be European City of Culture in a few years time. (Brexit City of non-Culture, more like it.)
 

MidnightFlyer

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As someone who grew up in a former mill town which thankfully didn't go the way of many of its smaller counterparts, I see why it is the yardstick being used in the OP - towns that existed almost solely for one reason that all of a sudden had to find a new one when the industry vanished. Many of the larger towns have weathered that storm with some success - Bolton, Huddersfield, Bury, Stockport, Blackburn, Halifax etc. - but the ones on the periphery, without the leading MPs, decent transport links or substantial existing population, still struggle - go for a walk around Pendle or in the valley towns around southern Lancashire and many of them still look like they never recovered. To that end the comparison to Luton is valid.

I have only ever been to Luton twice, only once have I left the station. I think my opinions on the place have been summarised well by those above!

Edit - Not sure why the hating on Basingstoke. Dozens upon dozens of worse towns out there.
 

Hornet

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It isn't just Luton, look at Slough, Stevenage, Bracknell, Dartford, Basildon, Gravesend, Tilbury and to a lesser extent Reading.

One of the things that ties many of these places together is the 70's brutalist architecture. 'Come friendly bombs' has never been more apt for many of the above places, (not just Slough, kip that Slough is and always has been).
 

Bromley boy

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #3 originally in this thread.



That’s an interesting question I’d love to know the answer to. In fact I’d say Luton is worse than the Northern towns you refer to. It certainly resembles the stereotypically unattractive places like Blackburn or Burnley, but is massively more congested, and lacks some of the old characterful buildings even these places have.

Drive just 10 minutes from Luton and the contrast couldn’t be more stark arriving in a neighbouring town like Harpenden or Hitchin.

Intrestingly I was discussing this very question with my stepdad the other day. He originally hails from Harpenden and knows the surrounding area pretty well. He likened Luton to Croydon, with a rough centre but some nicer bits on the periphery.

I’ve only been to Luton a few times and I would personally say it seems a good deal worse than Croydon, which I visit very frequently and shows signs of regeneration having a newly opened Box Park and a Westfield on the way (supposedly).

His other observation, which also seems to be supported on this thread, was that Luton has experienced ghettoisation along ethnic/religious (one religion in particular). I imagine this is a big part of the problem.
 
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EM2

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It isn't just Luton, look at Slough, Stevenage, Bracknell, Dartford, Basildon, Gravesend, Tilbury and to a lesser extent Reading.
I have never been to Luton, but I have been a resident of Slough, have family that live in Basildon, and live close (and therefore am a frequent visitor) to both Dartford and Gravesend.
I have never had a moment's bother in any of them. Yes, some areas aren't that aesthetically pleasing, but I've never experienced any tension, nastiness, unfriendliness, or hostility. There's nothing wrong with any of them.
One of the things that ties many of these places together is the 70's brutalist architecture. 'Come friendly bombs' has never been more apt for many of the above places, (not just Slough, kip that Slough is and always has been).
Slough has improved a lot since the early '90s and there weren't any major problems even then.
Brutalism isn't bad architecture just because it's brutalist.

As for Luton, is it possible that the traditional industries have died a while later than the traditional heavy industries in the other towns mentioned, and its time just hasn't come yet?
 
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AM9

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The originally quoted post is poorly worded, based on flawed stereotypes, I make no apology for calling that out.
There's nothing to call out. Read what I said, not what you thought that I said.

As you say post industrial decline is not exclusively Northern, nor is it specific to mill towns. That is my point exactly.
Correct, as I said. It's an expression, - not mine, maybe somebody with experience of northern mill towns coined it.

Plenty of areas across the country have suffered due to the collapse of a major industry, whether that be steel in South Wales, coal in the midlands (as well as the North), dock workers in London or Liverpool, fishing in many coastal towns or shipbuilding on Tyneside or on the Clyde.
That's true, but it seems that Luton's continued decline despite immense pressures on affordable housing in the south-east is an exception. Luton doesn't even have any sense of identity, except maybe from EDL supporters.
 

yorksrob

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I've just looked up the original 'crap towns' list from 2003, based on voting apparently, and Basingstoke came ninth, so I'm not the only one. Hull came top, interestingly, so,

Very interesting, considering that Hull is a really fascinating historical town with some wonderful architecture, great pubs and an excellent sporting culture.

I would class it as one of Britain's better cities.
 

AlterEgo

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Intrestingly I was discussing this very question with my stepdad the other day. He originally hails from Harpenden and knows the surrounding area pretty well. He likened Luton to Croydon, with a rough centre but some nicer bits on the periphery.

I’ve only been to Luton a few times and I would personally say it seems a good deal worse than Croydon, which I visit very frequently and shows signs of regeneration having a newly opened Box Park and a Westfield on the way (supposedly).

His other observation, which also seems to be supported on this thread, was that Luton has experienced ghettoisation along ethnic/religious (one religion in particular). I imagine this is a big part of the problem.

Croydon is a sparkling metropolis compared to Luton. I worked in Luton for a year. I like to see the good in every place but it is a really bad place. The Muslim ghettoes and white ghettoes are so distinct and obviously segregated it’s almost like being in Belfast. Luton has a lot more terrorists than Belfast these days though - and I’m being completely serious about that.
 

PeterY

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I live near Luton (Hemel Hempstead) but I would never dream of going to Luton. Locally it has a bad reputation. I've heard it joked the best bit of Luton is the take off runway at the airport. :):):):)
 

cactustwirly

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Very interesting, considering that Hull is a really fascinating historical town with some wonderful architecture, great pubs and an excellent sporting culture.

I would class it as one of Britain's better cities.

Really?

I can think of many cities that are much better than Hull.
 
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