Luton: Why does it feel like a rundown Northern ex-mill town but is 45 minutes from London?

[DarloRich]

Sorry but it is you that is fixated, in a vain attempt to prove that Luton's problems have nothing to do with Muslims... if you read ALL my posts up until you decided to pull me up on one point you will see that I have given a number of reasons for Luton's problems

That isn't what i am saying at all. I am happy to acknowledge that some of lutions problems stem form a divided community. You seem unable to consider any other reason for that other than evil muslims. I think if you start from that point of view you will never get to the answer or ever found a solution.

actually it was formed as a direct consequence of 2 militant Islamic groups staging a demonstration against, and disrupting, a parade in honour of Afghanistan veterans. You could say that it was the straw that broke the camel's back in Luton after years of militant Islamic activity which had and still is largely ignored by the establishment and authorities for fear of being seen as racist

It seems that the EDL and their supporters want to present themselves as being formed as a patriotic response to a military remembrance parade being desecrated by a small group of stupid islamonutjobs. The truth is that such activity presented a convenient excuse for an offshoot of the BNP ( based around football hooligan groups and far right street agitators) to move into slightly more sophisticated tactics. It also offered a useful recruitment touchstone enabling them to present themselves as defenders of our democratic way of life. The truth is they are far right nut jobs and wrong uns.

I suspect this poster is sympathetic to their views.

It was interesting to note @Teflon Lettuce ‘s comment that the EDL was formed in Luton - I was unaware of that. I think that demonstrated the issue. If people are not listened to, and issues are swept under the carpet, it just gives oxygen to extremism.

Once again I agree on the point about people not being listened to. There is clearly an issue with both young, poorly educated and relatively unsophisticated (both politically and socially) white working class males and their Muslim counterparts.

The North East is hardly known for it's mill towns. Steel, coal, locomotives, shipyards, yes. Mill towns are more of a Lancashire and Yorkshire thing.

Did you manage to read what I wrote? it seems not. That is EXACTLY The point i made!

You seem to associate Northern, with crap- that's the impression you're giving off. You do realise we aren't in the 80's anymore and a lot of these 'desolate Northern towns' have changed and are doing quite alright without the blight of heavy industry? Crushing futility, still? Most pits have long since closed down and you'd hardly know they were ever even there. Are you a glass half-empty person by any chance?

.

No - I come from the North East. I assume you have not visited Seaham or Easington or Houghton Le Spring or Hetton le Hole or Consett or South Bank. They aren't doing very well. Perhaps you aren't from that bit of the "north". I am.

 

[Iskra]

Did you manage to read what I wrote? it seems not. That is EXACTLY The point i made!

No - I come from the North East. I assume you have not visited Seaham or Easington or Houghton Le Spring or Hetton le Hole or Consett or South Bank. They aren't doing very well. Perhaps you aren't from that bit of the "north". I am.

Are you able to reply in any form of debate without resorting to being rude or condescending? I really don't see how that's what you said at all, but okay.

I used to go out with a lass from Chester-le-Street so have spent a fair bit of time in the area, I have been to Consett from your list, it seemed alright to me. I've no doubt there are run-down places but there are pleasant or thriving places in the North East too. To go back to my original point; run-down places aren't exclusive to the North and Luton. You get them all over the country, so we don't need to draw stereotypical comparisons between Luton and Northern towns, we can keep things simple and describe towns as run down or not run down.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

That isn't what i am saying at all. I am happy to acknowledge that some of lutions problems stem form a divided community. You seem unable to consider any other reason for that other than evil muslims. I think if you start from that point of view you will never get to the answer or ever found a solution.



It seems that the EDL and their supporters want to present themselves as being formed as a patriotic response to a military remembrance parade being desecrated by a small group of stupid islamonutjobs. The truth is that such activity presented a convenient excuse for an offshoot of the BNP ( based around football hooligan groups and far right street agitators) to move into slightly more sophisticated tactics. It also offered a useful recruitment touchstone enabling them to present themselves as defenders of our democratic way of life. The truth is they are far right nut jobs and wrong uns.

I suspect this poster is sympathetic to their views.



Once again I agree on the point about people not being listened to. There is clearly an issue with both young, poorly educated and relatively unsophisticated (both politically and socially) white working class males and their Muslim counterparts.

How dare you totally and deliberately misrepresent me and my views and accuse me of racism, just because I from my own personal experiences of having grown up in Luton have a different view to you!

For your information here is my original post on this thread in full:
Speaking as a Lutonian born and bred I can affirm that Luton is an absolute dump. There are many varied reasons for this, many going back to the 60's and 70's

First of all, Luton was "blessed" with the first undercover mall in the UK. It was just plonked right in the heart of the town, ensuring the destruction of many of the more interesting {and aesthetically pleasing} buildings. In short the Luton Arndale ripped the heart out of the town centre... There is an urban myth in Luton that any architect commissioned to build a new shopping centre is taken around the Luton Arndale and then told "that's what we don't want.

Then there is the collapse of manufacturing... Luton, and Dunstable with it, were home to Vauxhall/Bedford, Commer cars, SKF, electrolux, Leyland and many others... all now gone. There was nothing really done to attract new business to Luton, certainly not on the scale as in other southern manufacturing towns such as Reading

Then there is the inner ring road which took over 35 years to complete... completion being long after other towns had realised the error of such roads being bulldozed through... and bit by bit that road destroyed even more of the character of the Town Centre... in effect it acts more like a prison wall to contain the town centre so it can never escape and infect the rest of the town...

then comes the thorny issue of race relations. Whilst it is no longer politically correct to mention racial tensions, there is plenty in Luton... especially involving Muslims... Luton has a long history of militancy amongst it's Muslim population. I remember a Bingo hall in the Asian area of Luton being firebombed for being an affront to Islam {ok so it was a bit insensitive to call it Mecca Bingo but still...} then there was the kebab house that was forced to close because it called itself Kosher Kebabs... I well remember the debate raging about the Muslim population wanting ALL school dinners to be Halal... don't forget Luton is where the EDL started, and is where Tommy Robinson hails from... Whilst I don't condone his views or actions, I know full well how and why he became what he is...
who in hell would want to live in a town with tensions like that?

Then there is the council policy of "if it's green build on it" yes Luton has some lovely large parks... but in general on estates every last green patch has been or is planned to be built on.

In short Luton is a depressing place to live or work.... even now, 25 years after leaving the town, a depression descends over me if I even just pass it on the motorway

I wouldn't say Luton's a dump.... but the best way of going sightseeing is with your eyes tightly shut and a bag over your head![/QUOTE]

As you can see... in a list of 5 different reasons I gave for Luton's problems, I placed the race relation issue at number 4!

Frankly, as a Messianic Jew I find it offensive that you would accuse me of having sympathies with a neo-Nazi group, and if you dare to repeat your assertion that I am in any way connected with neo-Nazism I will report you to the moderators.

I'm sorry but as I said above, it is you that has fixated on the race relations issue, and I guess you are attempting to shut down any rational discussion on the part played by a failed policy {in Luton at least} of multiculturism.

As a final word, if you really believe that Luton's Muslims are just misrepresented and that they just want to live a peaceful, integrated life I strongly suggest you go onto YouTube and type in "Luton Muslim Protest" and see what pops up... it might just open your eyes to a few salient points about Luton's Muslim population!

I note you don't live or work in Luton, you only know a few work colleagues from there..

 

[DarloRich]

Are you able to reply in any form of debate without resorting to being rude or condescending? I really don't see how that's what you said at all, but okay.

The following post may be seen as rude or condescending. This is what i actually said:

What I find really confusing is that it is like a northern town but 45 minutes form London

It does have a Mill Town feel although my experience is more ex coal/ex steel towns in the north east. We don't have the Manchester effect on Teesside or Wearside

You obviously missed those statements in your righteous indignation.

I used to go out with a lass from Chester-le-Street so have spent a fair bit of time in the area, I have been to Consett from your list, it seemed alright to me. I've no doubt there are run-down places but there are pleasant or thriving places in the North East too. To go back to my original point; run-down places aren't exclusive to the North and Luton. You get them all over the country, so we don't need to draw stereotypical comparisons between Luton and Northern towns, we can keep things simple and describe towns as run down or not run down.

You seem to willfully miss the point. You do get run down areas all over the country. However you get less in the SE and Luton stands out as being very different form the surrounding towns. They are all affluent. Luton is not. The feel there is very northern and seems very similar to the towns I know at home. As i said perhaps you haven't experienced towns like that in the North East. I have. Luton feels the same.

 

[DarloRich]

How dare you totally and deliberately misrepresent me and my views and accuse me of racism, just because I from my own personal experiences of having grown up in Luton have a different view to you!

For your information here is my original post on this thread in full:
Speaking as a Lutonian born and bred I can affirm that Luton is an absolute dump. There are many varied reasons for this, many going back to the 60's and 70's

First of all, Luton was "blessed" with the first undercover mall in the UK. It was just plonked right in the heart of the town, ensuring the destruction of many of the more interesting {and aesthetically pleasing} buildings. In short the Luton Arndale ripped the heart out of the town centre... There is an urban myth in Luton that any architect commissioned to build a new shopping centre is taken around the Luton Arndale and then told "that's what we don't want.

Then there is the collapse of manufacturing... Luton, and Dunstable with it, were home to Vauxhall/Bedford, Commer cars, SKF, electrolux, Leyland and many others... all now gone. There was nothing really done to attract new business to Luton, certainly not on the scale as in other southern manufacturing towns such as Reading

Then there is the inner ring road which took over 35 years to complete... completion being long after other towns had realised the error of such roads being bulldozed through... and bit by bit that road destroyed even more of the character of the Town Centre... in effect it acts more like a prison wall to contain the town centre so it can never escape and infect the rest of the town...

then comes the thorny issue of race relations. Whilst it is no longer politically correct to mention racial tensions, there is plenty in Luton... especially involving Muslims... Luton has a long history of militancy amongst it's Muslim population. I remember a Bingo hall in the Asian area of Luton being firebombed for being an affront to Islam {ok so it was a bit insensitive to call it Mecca Bingo but still...} then there was the kebab house that was forced to close because it called itself Kosher Kebabs... I well remember the debate raging about the Muslim population wanting ALL school dinners to be Halal... don't forget Luton is where the EDL started, and is where Tommy Robinson hails from... Whilst I don't condone his views or actions, I know full well how and why he became what he is...
who in hell would want to live in a town with tensions like that?

Then there is the council policy of "if it's green build on it" yes Luton has some lovely large parks... but in general on estates every last green patch has been or is planned to be built on.

In short Luton is a depressing place to live or work.... even now, 25 years after leaving the town, a depression descends over me if I even just pass it on the motorway

I wouldn't say Luton's a dump.... but the best way of going sightseeing is with your eyes tightly shut and a bag over your head!

As you can see... in a list of 5 different reasons I gave for Luton's problems, I placed the race relation issue at number 4!

Frankly, as a Messianic Jew I find it offensive that you would accuse me of having sympathies with a neo-Nazi group, and if you dare to repeat your assertion that I am in any way connected with neo-Nazism I will report you to the moderators.

I'm sorry but as I said above, it is you that has fixated on the race relations issue, and I guess you are attempting to shut down any rational discussion on the part played by a failed policy {in Luton at least} of multiculturism.

As a final word, if you really believe that Luton's Muslims are just misrepresented and that they just want to live a peaceful, integrated life I strongly suggest you go onto YouTube and type in "Luton Muslim Protest" and see what pops up... it might just open your eyes to a few salient points about Luton's Muslim population!

I note you don't live or work in Luton, you only know a few work colleagues from there..

I don't disagree with much of what you have written in particular the decline of manufacturing and heavy industry ( which is why I said it felt very northern and particulary north eastern - an area i know very well) however you are clearly wrong about the 7/7 bombers and imo you are unable to look beyond blaming the Muslims for all of the social problems in Luton.

I don't seek to excuse them from blame or to say that they are innocent. Far form it. I just want to try and work out the reasons for the problems. I also don't seek to tar all with the same brush. You also seem unable to deal with any challenge to your views.

I hesitate to point out another error but the EDL is not, technically, a traditional neo nazi group. It is certainly Islamophobic & selectively racist but it is not driven by a fascist or neo facist ideology or end goal.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don't disagree with much of what you have written in particular the decline of manufacturing and heavy industry ( which is why I said it felt very northern and particulary north eastern - an area i know very well) however you are clearly wrong about the 7/7 bombers and imo you are unable to look beyond blaming the Muslims for all of the social problems in Luton.

I don't seek to excuse them from blame or to say that they are innocent. Far form it. I just want to try and work out the reasons for the problems. I also don't seek to tar all with the same brush. You also seem unable to deal with any challenge to your views.

I hesitate to point out another error but the EDL is not, technically, a traditional neo nazi group. It is certainly Islamophobic & selectively racist but it is not driven by a fascist or neo facist ideology or end goal.

I think that if you read my posts with an open mind you will see that I have, in fact, stood corrected on the facts of 7/7. I have no problem with having a rational discussion about racial tensions... it is you that appears to have a problem with anyone questioning your posts or comments... as evidenced by the fact that you are currently having 2 arguments with 2 different members where your tone is "I am right, you are wrong" end of discussion.

Are the EDL anti one race/ religion? yes! definition of fascism from dictionary.com:

noun

1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

so therefore EDL are neo-fascist... as are Jihadists and as are some sections of ultra Orthodox Zionism! quite apart from the fact that the EDL was, at it's inception, linked with the BNP which was the successor party of National Front... need I say more...

also your arrogance in not offering an apology for your offensive remarks regarding what I may or may not believe has been noted and I will, for the moment leave it to others to draw their own conclusions as to your motives from that fact.

The truth is, I have not only analysed the social problems of Luton I have lived them... and the conclusion I, along with many residents and ex-residents of Luton, have come to is that they are down to the Muslim community, especially those from the Indian subcontinent, refuse to integrate into mainstream society in Luton... I can't help it if you don't like the conclusion I've come to, but that is the conclusion... I'm willing to have a rational debate on why I have reached that conclusion, but I refuse to debate the issues if every time I say something you find uncomfortable you shout "racist" at me... quite apart from the fact that it will be absolutely pointless as there is none so blind as those who will not see!

 

[DarloRich]

I think that if you read my posts with an open mind you will see that I have, in fact, stood corrected on the facts of 7/7. I have no problem with having a rational discussion about racial tensions... it is you that appears to have a problem with anyone questioning your posts or comments... as evidenced by the fact that you are currently having 2 arguments with 2 different members where your tone is "I am right, you are wrong" end of discussion.

Only two arguments simultaneously - i must try harder.

Are the EDL anti one race/ religion? yes! definition of fascism from dictionary.com:

noun

1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

so therefore EDL are neo-fascist... as are Jihadists and as are some sections of ultra Orthodox Zionism! quite apart from the fact that the EDL was, at it's inception, linked with the BNP which was the successor party of National Front... need I say more...

also your arrogance in not offering an apology for your offensive remarks regarding what I may or may not believe has been noted and I will, for the moment leave it to others to draw their own conclusions as to your motives from that fact.

We shall have to disagree then. I maintain they do not follow a fascist ideology nor do they meet all of your dictionary.com definition. Racist and Islamophobic - Certainly. Fascist? Not sure. They are very happy to develop links with other anti jihadist groups including those from other "alien" religions. That isn't a traditional fascist approach.

The truth is, I have not only analysed the social problems of Luton I have lived them... and the conclusion I, along with many residents and ex-residents of Luton, have come to is that they are down to the Muslim community, especially those from the Indian subcontinent, refuse to integrate into mainstream society in Luton... I can't help it if you don't like the conclusion I've come to, but that is the conclusion... I'm willing to have a rational debate on why I have reached that conclusion, but I refuse to debate the issues if every time I say something you find uncomfortable you shout "racist" at me... quite apart from the fact that it will be absolutely pointless as there is none so blind as those who will not see!

I don't dislike your conclusion. I simply am not sure I agree entirely. You haven't really explained it. You are professing expertise. Share it with us and try and change some views. I maintain it is very easy to blame one section of society for all of the problems. That, in my view, is an easy way out. For instance the Muslim section of the community isn't responsible for a shopping centre or ring road or the damage to the town these two constructions caused. It isn't responsible for the decline of traditional manufacturing or the failure to replace those jobs with similar good quality skilled jobs. What it is responsible for, in whole or part, is a lack of social integration. That's 1/5th of your list set out above.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the incident at a veterans parade, could a reason be at the time it being caused by the government interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, which had an unintended consequence that led to the formation of the EDL?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Regarding the incident at a veterans parade, could a reason be at the time it being caused by the government interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, which had an unintended consequence that led to the formation of the EDL?

well yes, but Luton has over a number of years had a number of militant Islamic factions... and on the opposite side militant anti-Muslim feeling... it truly has had a very polarised population... all that happened at that point is that tensions that had been simmering barely below the surface suddenly erupted into the open for all to see, though I wouldn't say the formation of the EDL was an unintended consequence, rather it was an inevitable outcome.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don't dislike your conclusion. I simply am not sure I agree entirely. You haven't really explained it. You are professing expertise. Share it with us and try and change some views. I maintain it is very easy to blame one section of society for all of the problems. That, in my view, is an easy way out. For instance the Muslim section of the community isn't responsible for a shopping centre or ring road or the damage to the town these two constructions caused. It isn't responsible for the decline of traditional manufacturing or the failure to replace those jobs with similar good quality skilled jobs. What it is responsible for, in whole or part, is a lack of social integration. That's 1/5th of your list set out above.

I haven't once professed "expertise", rather I have mentioned a number of incidents that I recall from my time living and growing up in Luton:

Luton has a long history of militancy amongst it's Muslim population. I remember a Bingo hall in the Asian area of Luton being firebombed for being an affront to Islam {ok so it was a bit insensitive to call it Mecca Bingo but still...} then there was the kebab house that was forced to close because it called itself Kosher Kebabs... I well remember the debate raging about the Muslim population wanting ALL school dinners to be Halal... don't forget Luton is where the EDL started, and is where Tommy Robinson hails from... Whilst I don't condone his views or actions, I know full well how and why he became what he is...

...There have been many other problems caused by the Muslim community in Luton, and they can't even be "civilised" amongst themselves... there was a period of about a year a few years back when 50 police officers were detailed to patrol the area around the Central Mosque because there was rioting and out and out battles between 2 factions who couldn't agree who should have control of the Mosque... it may be unfair, but that episode left a very sour taste among the non-Muslims, especially when Luton has a higher than average crime rate and the Police were already overstretched

To be honest I think it disingenious to say people are "blaming the browns"... the problem is adherents of one particular religion... Islam... and as someone else has already said, adherents from a particular area of the world... the Indian subcontinent. I always found Hindus Sikhs Black Muslims, West Indians etc willing and able to integrate... The truth is Muslims from the subcontinent, at least the vocal bunch who get all the attention, have come to this country because they "like our values" and then spend all their time shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!

As you can see,I haven't professed any expertise rather I have quoted from my own life experiences, and I have been very clear about where exactly I see those problems eminating from {one specific section of the Muslim community} and I have also pointed to the fact that that particular faction are anti other muslims so your continued attempts at trying to paint me as a rabid racist are, at best disingenious, at worst.... offensive!

But at the end of the day, Luton has a dreadful simmering racial tension which is like a powder keg so, getting back to the point of this thread, why would anyone want to live there?

I note you live in Darlington and work in Fenny... I assume you stay down south during the week... may I suggest that you rent a place in Luton {preferably somewhere near Bury Park}... you might then have a much more informed opinion about the truth of the racial situation in Luton

 

[Abpj17]

Ummm, because it’s the southern equivalent of an ex-Northern mill town. Used to have a hatting industry (millinery) and significant manufacturing including cars - Vauxhall used to employ 30k which is a significant loss. Wave after wave of immigration (actually more so than most Northern towns).

And there is historical buildings if you know where to look. The church is 12th century. Luton Hoo. Stockwood Park. Wardown Museum. Visible roman history as part of the landscape. Icknield Way. However, as manufacturing base, it was also heavily damaged in the war (over 1500 homes destroyed).

Luton’s role is essentially somewhere to pass through on the way to somewhere better - whether that’s holidays, or upwards social mobility. (In the meantime, I’ll enjoy my 5 bedroom house for 20% of the price that I would need to pay in London)

The south I think you might be imagining is the largely service-based one and high-tech and recent growth out of relatively rural landscapes.

A lot of the congestion flows the the M1 and the railways carving up the town - these create quite significant pinch points, combined with the geography - it’s nestling in the chilterns with rising hills around it.

Finally, there is a lot of tosh in the thread about race relations.

A lot of the Muslim population in Luton is now 2nd/3rd generation Kashmir - who fled the conflict and aftermath. Found jobs in manufacturing and their kids worked hards. A high concentration in the terrace housing around the football stadium, but largely privately owned. The socio-economic equivalent of ‘english’ is more likely to be living in council stock, long term unemployed, and repeating the pattern down the generations. Luton has diversity going back decades - it was part of wind rush, irish immigration which resulted in an IRA presence, jewish/polish, africa during the war etc.

I also think it’s unfair to describe parts as self-imposed ghettos. That’s part of the story…but it’s also about wanting to stay close to extended family, about where the housing was already available from previous immigrant waves (particularly irish), and about the ‘domestic’ population being relatively racist when the early waves came. Indeed, hints of that are apparent on this thread.

The houses don’t exist yet to attract young commuters. The factory housing is too small for an aspirational family home. But immigrants will tend to live there as it’s about moving up the ladder (and beats a war zone, famine etc.). The new houses near the airport station are probably some of the earliest new build with good (once GTR gets act together) travel links. Those not planning kids want to be closer to London.

(Yes, I was born here, grew up/schooled in Dunstable, moved away for uni, came back to buy property…so 34 of the last 40 years…and 4 of the missing years were in and around Stoke).

Cactus - stoke on trent feels significantly worse in terms of poverty levels (and relatively low immigration just plenty of prejudice - including against the south). I’ve lived in both.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I was hoping we wouldn't descend to the level of blaming the browns quite so quickly!

It is a terribly divided community - the question is why (& i would prefer not to descend to the EDL level of debate!)

Where am I blaming the browns? You can try and twist it anyway you want but the days of pulling the race card are well and truly over, you've obviously done this to try and portray me as something that I'm not.

All I've said is what's possibly causing the tensions between the ethnical groups is the ever expanding zoneification that Luton seems to have which isn't benefitting anyone and that I can see it happening in Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford anytime soon.

I don't think anyone is "blaming the browns", but it is a fact that the Muslim community in Luton has always been militant and anti-integration. No amount of "helping to integrate" will work if those you're trying to help refuse to be integrated.

The sad truth is that Luton does have extremists on both sides of the ethnical divide, but I can't help but feel that the non-Muslim population of Luton are fed up of being told that they must "help" their Muslim neighbours to integrate when every attempt to do so just gets spat straight back in their faces!

Its proof that integration simply doesn't work with some communities, no matter how much the authorities try and 'encourage' so called community cohesion, some people simply don't want to integrate, one thing I will say is that it will end badly.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Finally, there is a lot of tosh in the thread about race relations.

A lot of the Muslim population in Luton is now 2nd/3rd generation Kashmir - who fled the conflict and aftermath. Found jobs in manufacturing and their kids worked hards. A high concentration in the terrace housing around the football stadium, but largely privately owned. The socio-economic equivalent of ‘english’ is more likely to be living in council stock, long term unemployed, and repeating the pattern down the generations. Luton has diversity going back decades - it was part of wind rush, irish immigration which resulted in an IRA presence, jewish/polish, africa during the war etc.

I also think it’s unfair to describe parts as self-imposed ghettos. That’s part of the story…but it’s also about wanting to stay close to extended family, about where the housing was already available from previous immigrant waves (particularly irish), and about the ‘domestic’ population being relatively racist when the early waves came. Indeed, hints of that are apparent on this thread.

Whilst it was never MY intention to focus on Luton's racial divides, my mentioning of it in passing has led to a raging debate on the issue. However, I have to take issue with your contention that what is being written is "tosh". Luton's racial tensions are a matter of public record, having been reported both locally and nationally. Ok, so for everyday living most people don't experience these problems at a personal level, the truth is there IS a simmering undercurrent in the town which can be palpably felt. As I pointed out earlier in the thread even 30 years ago Bury Park didn't feel safe for a white person to walk through late at night... but then again, to be fair, Marsh Farm wasn't a very safe place to walk about in broad daylight!

But immigration is the key to the problems of Luton... and not just immigration from overseas....

Luton was a designated London Overspill town in the 50's and 60's and it massively expanded during this period, more than doubling in size...so why didn't Luton prosper socially in the same way that the New Towns such as Harlow, Stevenage and Crawley? well with the New Towns, they took their new populations from specific parts of London... Harlow, for example, took the majority of their new residents from "London Essex" which in turn had taken most of it's residents from the East End, therefore in effect whole communities were transplanted, meaning there was an inbuilt community from the start. Luton was different, it didn't take it's influx of new residents from one specific part of London... ergo no ready built "community" My parents moved to Luton from Fulham, our neighbours on one side from Kilburn {being London Irish with IRA sympathies} and on the other from the East End {one of the couple were of Heugenot decent}.. and therein lies the original point of the destruction of the social cohesion in Luton

 

[DarloRich]

Luton was different, it didn't take it's influx of new residents from one specific part of London... ergo no ready built "community" My parents moved to Luton from Fulham, our neighbours on one side from Kilburn {being London Irish with IRA sympathies} and on the other from the East End {one of the couple were of Heugenot decent}.. and therein lies the original point of the destruction of the social cohesion in Luton

that is an interesting point and that is exactly what I meant by your expertise. I had wrongly assumed there to be a sizable "London Irish" community in Luton that had been "redistributed" from North London.

Where am I blaming the browns? You can try and twist it anyway you want but the days of pulling the race card are well and truly over, you've obviously done this to try and portray me as something that I'm not.

it is clear from this and other posts where your views lie. My point is that it is far too easy to blame Muslims for all of the problems in Luton. They are to a greater or lesser extent, responsible for social cohesion issues. It is preposterous to suggest they can be responsible for the decline in the local industrial base, the failure to replace that base with skilled good quality jobs or the building of a crapy shopping centre or a cack handed ring road or the poor architectural decisions in the town centre!

Social cohesion is one of a number of problems. It might be the greatest problem but it isnt the only one.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

that is an interesting point and that is exactly what I meant by your expertise. I had wrongly assumed there to be a sizable "London Irish" community in Luton that had been "redistributed" from North London.

There is a large London Irish population in Luton. My point was that whereas with New Towns the new populations were taken from one or two contiguous London Boroughs, this wasn't the case in Luton. Believe it or not, East Enders had different values/ culture than West Londoners, who had differences to North Londoners etc... due mainly to the different histories of immigration/ migration patterns. So in Luton, rather than people with shared life experiences being relocated together they were scattered across the town... in fact, if I understood my Dad correctly, the only qualification for getting a move to Luton was that you had to be working in Luton for 2 years... he literally had to commute from Fulham to Luton every day for that time before my parents were even considered for a council house...

not to mention of course that there was a great deal of resentment amongst born and bred Lutonians at all these "foreigners" moving in and taking all the nice new council houses!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.

Both Stockport and Luton have historical connections to the trade of hat-making.

 

[DarloRich]

There is a large London Irish population in Luton. My point was that whereas with New Towns the new populations were taken from one or two contiguous London Boroughs, this wasn't the case in Luton. Believe it or not, East Enders had different values/ culture than West Londoners, who had differences to North Londoners etc... due mainly to the different histories of immigration/ migration patterns. So in Luton, rather than people with shared life experiences being relocated together they were scattered across the town... in fact, if I understood my Dad correctly, the only qualification for getting a move to Luton was that you had to be working in Luton for 2 years... he literally had to commute from Fulham to Luton every day for that time before my parents were even considered for a council house...

not to mention of course that there was a great deal of resentment amongst born and bred Lutonians at all these "foreigners" moving in and taking all the nice new council houses!

That is interesting. I assumed the various groups to come almost en masse to pre allocated housing areas.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That is interesting. I assumed the various groups to come almost en masse to pre allocated housing areas.

Sort of ...Bethnal Green went to Debden (well documented by Willmott and Young) , North Kensington to Carpenders Park , East End generically to Dagenham.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Sort of ...Bethnal Green went to Debden (well documented by Willmott and Young) , North Kensington to Carpenders Park , East End generically to Dagenham.

But that was my point about Luton... that didn't happen... in Luton the people who came from London came from all over London... and they weren't even allocated to particular estates... hence the "community" had to start from scratch.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But that was my point about Luton... that didn't happen... in Luton the people who came from London came from all over London... and they weren't even allocated to particular estates... hence the "community" had to start from scratch.

I agree with you - it was sort of better planned from other despatching London boroughs....

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Sorry but it is you that is fixated, in a vain attempt to prove that Luton's problems have nothing to do with Muslims... if you read ALL my posts up until you decided to pull me up on one point you will see that I have given a number of reasons for Luton's problems

Teflon Lettuce, it'd be pointless trying to get a clear point across to DarloRich. He's obviously closed minded and thinks that everything that doesn't fit his extreme lefty views is either racist or fascist. His behaviour is, in my view, on par to that social justice warrior nutjob Bunny LaRoche. I bet she'd feel right at home in Luton.

It is clear from this and other posts where your views lie. My point is that it is far too easy to blame Muslims for all of the problems in Luton. They are to a greater or lesser extent, responsible for social cohesion issues. It is preposterous to suggest they can be responsible for the decline in the local industrial base, the failure to replace that base with skilled good quality jobs or the building of a crapy shopping centre or a cack handed ring road or the poor architectural decisions in the town centre!

Social cohesion is one of a number of problems. It might be the greatest problem but it isnt the only one.

Your obviously missing the point and still trying to paint me as hard right. Where do I blame Muslims? Where do I blame brown people? Still trying to get one over me by pulling the race card again? You haven't a leg to stand on, its clear DarloRich where your views lie as well and its somewhere over the extreme left of the political scale.

My views are centre right, which you will find that most people who are centre right have an open mind and are not afraid of saying what they think, and if I think that the zoneification that Luton has could well spread to places such as Halifax, Bradford, Huddersfield and elsewhere then I stand by those views. I'm not afraid of speaking my mind.

If more people spoke their mind then we wouldn't be having the sort of social and community cohesion problems that we're having as it would have been dealt with years ago.

 

[cactustwirly]

The following post may be seen as rude or condescending. This is what i actually said:

What I find really confusing is that it is like a northern town but 45 minutes form London

It does have a Mill Town feel although my experience is more ex coal/ex steel towns in the north east. We don't have the Manchester effect on Teesside or Wearside

You obviously missed those statements in your righteous indignation.



You seem to willfully miss the point. You do get run down areas all over the country. However you get less in the SE and Luton stands out as being very different form the surrounding towns. They are all affluent. Luton is not. The feel there is very northern and seems very similar to the towns I know at home. As i said perhaps you haven't experienced towns like that in the North East. I have. Luton feels the same.

I don't think they are all very affluent though.
If you believe that, then go to Slough or the housing estates in South Reading.

 

[The_Train]

How does Luton compare to the dump that is Stoke-on-trent?

Stoke-on-Trent is NOT a dump.............it is so much more worse than a dump.

From what I've read on here about Luton (I've only ever been to the football ground and as much as the area around there wasn't particularly attractive, I don't think it gives me a right to comment on the whole place), it appears to have many similarities to Stoke-on-Trent. The ethnic divide is quite obvious as is the remains of a previous industrial heritage and there is plenty of wasted opportunity to be an overflow for some major cities.

 

[Abpj17]

Yes - I can see how the raging debate rather escalated. Nevertheless there is some (but not all) tosh. (And I’m very familiar with Marsh Farm, with family living there and attending school there, and with the wide diversity of Luton's population).

Your point about social cohesion is odd though. You don't like ghettos/zonefication on the one hand, but you're also saying that e.g. London Irish vs. Huguenot etc. should have been allocated to separate pockets of luton. So white-religious silos are fine, but not different coloured/non-european ghettos?!

• Many of the incumbent population didn’t welcome any immigrants - black, asian, jewish, african. So it’s hardly the fault of particularly lower socio-economic immigrants to end up in ghettos when they are actively not wanted elsewhere (cf. Tommy Robinson).
• There is a strong correlation with socio-economic vs. racial tension. You seem to have forgotten to post about the middle class asian population who tend to be more integrated and work hard.
• Two of the schools with a v. high asian population are both in the top 5% non-selective of the country. https://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/two-luton-schools-in-top-5-in-england-1-7868730. And while http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/e.../secondary/11/html/eng_maths_821.stm?compare= is a little dated, the top three schools by first column are all, I believe, majority ethnic minority. That doesn’t fit the narrative being asserted.

Re: stoke on trent. Stoke on Trent has limited racial diversity but a much stronger reaction against it based on little actual contact. Luton has genuine diversity - and many of the benefits and challenges that go along side that. 95% of Stoke is white. In Luton, it's less than 60% now. (And of the white population, that is relatively diverse as well)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Yes - I can see how the raging debate rather escalated. Nevertheless there is some (but not all) tosh. (And I’m very familiar with Marsh Farm, with family living there and attending school there, and with the wide diversity of Luton's population).

Your point about social cohesion is odd though. You don't like ghettos/zonefication on the one hand, but you're also saying that e.g. London Irish vs. Huguenot etc. should have been allocated to separate pockets of luton. So white-religious silos are fine, but not different coloured/non-european ghettos?!

I think you are taking my comments totally out of context... what I was alluding to was the fact that Luton's problems with social cohesion didn't start with non-white, or even non-British immigration to the town, but to the fact that it started soon after the war when it was designated a London Overspill... and to the fact that, unlike New Towns, the new "immigrants" to the town weren't a single community from one part of London, rather they were taken a few here, a few there.... and all plonked together with no thought to how to make a community! I, for one, certainly did benefit from the diversity of culture on my street, but remember most of the adults that were relocated to Luton in the 50's and 60's had lived through the horrors of WW2 {many as children} and the last thing they needed on top of having to relocate was to have to rebuild a community when they got there.
ANY form of ghetto is bad for society as a whole, but at the same time the integration has to be done in a natural way, at a pace which suits all involved. The big problem with Luton today is that there is a large minority of the Muslim population that not only refuse point blank to integrate in any form, but furthermore they seek to impose their values and views on the wider population. Added to this problem is the Local Authority's refusal to admit that there IS a problem

 

[johntea]

I haven't got too much experience of Luton, but I often stop over in Stevenage if I'm doing a solo London trip as the hotels are usually very competitive there - again only a 25 minute train ride to Kings Cross but like two different worlds! (Other parts of Hertfordshire seem to fit in a lot better).

Maybe it's the fact it has the weird layout of the 'old' town and the 'new' town, it does seem to get some development though with the retail/leisure park by the station and the Premier Inn nearby feels quite new and has very comfortable large beds!

 

[Bromley boy]

Luton has genuine diversity - and many of the benefits and challenges that go along side that. 95% of Stoke is white.

I’m not sure that siloed, ghettoised groups of people with no common values, no common outlook and quite possibly no common language, who happen to live in the same small area, counts as “diversity” in any meaningful sense.

You seem to be (deliberately?) ignoring the poor social and economic participation of the groups in question.

 

[bramling]

Bizarre thread. There are plenty of unattractive places all over the country, proximity to London and its 'affluence' (obviously, nobody apart from Londoners has any money) do not prevent places being unpleasant. There are large swathes of London that I would describe as unpleasant.

Perhaps I'm weird but I find former mills more aesthetically pleasing than almost anything built in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.

Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.

I think this is a lot of the point - in my experience the Northern mill towns actually aren’t that bad, although there are certainly some *very* deprived and/or segregated areas within them if you happen to come across them. Luton seems an enigma in that it’s more affluent (or at least should be) and is pretty much a tip from start to finish.

 

[bramling]

It isn't just Luton, look at Slough, Stevenage, Bracknell, Dartford, Basildon, Gravesend, Tilbury and to a lesser extent Reading.

I wouldn’t say any of these places are like Luton. The common link with all those places is large amounts of council housing, most (or all?) of these being new or expanded towns, and at the same time 50s 60s or 70s architecture. None are as uniquely unpleasant as Luton IMO. I’d say many of the above also have a certain level of affluence and prosperity which Luton simply seems to lack.

 

[bramling]

Hull is quite pleasant these days - probably in Britain’s top ten in my book.

Spent two weeks in Hull a couple of years back and didn’t mind the place at all - however it does have its areas around the periphery, although no worse than similar areas in other U.K. cities.