Luton: Why does it feel like a rundown Northern ex-mill town but is 45 minutes from London?

[cactustwirly]

How does Luton compare to the dump that is Stoke-on-trent?

 

[Hornet]

I have never been to Luton, but I have been a resident of Slough, have family that live in Basildon, and live close (and therefore a frequent visitor) to both Dartford and Gravesend.
I have never had a moment's bother in any of them. Yes, some areas aren't that aesthetically pleasing, but I've never experienced any tension, nastiness, unfriendliness, or hostility. There's nothing wrong with any of them.

Slough has improved a lot since the early '90s and there weren't any major problems even then.
Brutalism isn't bad architecture just because it's brutalist.

As for Luton, is it possible that the traditional industries have died a while later than the traditional heavy industries in the other towns mentioned, and its time just hasn't come yet?

Lived on the edge of Slough for over 40 years, (Pre Queensmere). Was a Councillor there in the 80's. Left in 2001 as it was just not the place I wanted to live in anymore. Go back often as I have all my family living there. Was back two weeks ago. My other half asked me if I would ever move back. No chance. The place gets worse every year. My sister has had enough of the place and is moving to Gloucestershire. It's a kip, and has become an ever bigger kip since the 60's. At least when I was living close by I could escape into Burnham Beeches and the wider Chilterns. As for Slough, once my parents go I will be glad never to darken it's doors again.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really?

I can think of many cities that are much better than Hull.

Hull is quite pleasant these days - probably in Britain’s top ten in my book.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Luton does have some pleasant areas , but, as other folk have said there is no compulsion to go there - apart from the fairly shambolic (yes I know it is being rejigged) airport.

I did have some time to kill one Thameslink operating shambles and took a stroll up the east side , near the station -and rapidly turned around having glimpsed a burnt out pub and less than desirable people hanging around. A great shame - when most places (Croydon included) has somewhere you can spend a reasonable half hour or so.

Needs a regeneration in all respects. Interesting to note when discussions were being made on the aforementioned station , that no prime retail outlets (the M+S of this world for example) - expressed less than zero interest.

 

[Bromley boy]

The Muslim ghettoes and white ghettoes are so distinct and obviously segregated it’s almost like being in Belfast.

Indeed.

That’s a good example of why multiculturalism is not the panacea we are told it is. It fails if you import large numbers of people with alien values, no ability to speak the language and no desire to integrate with their host country.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Hull is quite pleasant these days - probably in Britain’s top ten in my book.

It is - and good efforts last year to spark it up - just the peripherality of it all. Luton , in theory has very good linkages all over.

 

[AM9]

I worked in Capability Green, Luton for 6 years but it was separate from the centre of the town. Only once have I been to the town station (to travel on business to Edinburgh via Kings Cross). The station was a bit tatty, but I don't remember it being as described earlier in this thread.

 

[yorksrob]

Really?

I can think of many cities that are much better than Hull.

Yes really.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Luton is a town that has been left to stew for decades with a lack of investment, awful governance, and widespread issues stemming from poverty and ethnic divides. I go there semi-regularly to visit friends and there's an air of desperation and resignation - Glasgow in the 1980s but without that sense of community. The town really needs knocking down and totally rebuilt to 21st century standards too, it's a horrible place to navigate at the best of times. It could be used as an opportunity to encourage integration through dispersal and support too.

I haven't been stabbed there though, which makes it far better than Skegness as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DarloRich]

Bizarre thread. There are plenty of unattractive places all over the country, proximity to London and its 'affluence' (obviously, nobody apart from Londoners has any money) do not prevent places being unpleasant. There are large swathes of London that I would describe as unpleasant.

Perhaps I'm weird but I find former mills more aesthetically pleasing than almost anything built in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.

Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.

you are being silly and willfully misrepresenting things.

The originally quoted post is poorly worded, based on flawed stereotypes, I make no apology for calling that out.

As you say post industrial decline is not exclusively Northern, nor is it specific to mill towns. That is my point exactly.

It was me who said it initially more focused on North East industrial towns. Towns that I know very well. Luton has the same run down, disenfranchised and abandoned feel. The point you miss ( perhaps willfully once again) is that Luton being such a dump offers cheap housing by SE standards yet does not seem to have changed. The other towns in the area are noticeably better off. Luton isn't like that. It feels like the towns I know in the North East that have been left behind. It has a very desolate northern feel and the same sort of crushing futility that you come across in former pit towns. I get that in Seaham or Easington. I don't in Luton.

BTW lets not play who is more northern. Sheffield is almost in the south east.

In answer to the original question- is it Luton’s proximity to London that has been part of its demise; London sucking the life out of the town as it obviously has a much better offering of just about everything.

Sadly you are wrong. Other towns in the area do not suffer in the same way Luton does. it should be attracting young commuters looking to own their own home. It has superb rail links to London, an airport, the M1 very close by and the A1M not that far away.

What's possibly causing the tensions between the ethnical groups is the ever expanding zoneification that Luton seems to have which isn't benefitting anyone. I see it happening in Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford sooner or later.

Lets face it, these tensions will only become worse over time.

I was hoping we wouldn't descend to the level of blaming the browns quite so quickly!

The Muslim ghettoes and white ghettoes are so distinct and obviously segregated it’s almost like being in Belfast. Luton has a lot more terrorists than Belfast these days though - and I’m being completely serious about that.

it is a terribly divided community - the question is why (& i would prefer not to descend to the EDL level of debate!)

Very interesting, considering that Hull is a really fascinating historical town with some wonderful architecture, great pubs and an excellent sporting culture.

I would class it as one of Britain's better cities.

Hull is quite pleasant these days - probably in Britain’s top ten in my book.

You haven't been to many then! It is a horrid place infested with chavs and students. and my ex. The Germans had the right idea. Hate it. Horrible place. Might be biased.

That’s a good example of why multiculturalism is not the panacea we are told it is. It fails if you import large numbers of people with alien values, no ability to speak the language and no desire to integrate with their host country.

To play devils advocate it also fails if the existing culture isn't able or willing to support and train the new entrants to the required local standards.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Frankly - anyone who cannot afford St Albans (and there are many) - would never consider inner Luton for culteral and other reasons , but aim for Hatfield / Dunstable and Hemel - or even further out to Leighton Buzzard. I speak from the experience of my own contacts.

 

[si404]

So I searched englandseconomichomeland.com for various large towns within the area. Luton does get some attention, but not a huge amount.

Wycombe 4 (most of these are about the district being on board, though there's also a transport page with a map - consider this a baseline)
Peterborough 6
Northampton 7
Luton 9 (at least one results is about airports)
Bedford 11
Aylesbury 12 (though, tbf, that's where the office is, so at least one page is their contact address)
Milton Keynes 27
Cambridge 31
Oxford 43

Despite being a member of the strategic partnership and all, at the geographical heart of it and as the largest urban area, that MK gets thrice the results shows how little people care.

Of course, as Martin Tett (nominally Councillor for Little Chalfont and Amersham Common, but really someone who cares for little south of the Ridgeway - much preferring cheese to chalk)'s baby, and he has the contacts along HS2's route due to heading up the anti- campaign, it's little surprise that the focus is on places that Tett is bothered with

 

[DarloRich]

i don't understand what that all means

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I was hoping we wouldn't descend to the level of blaming the browns quite so quickly!

.....it is a terribly divided community - the question is why (& i would prefer not to descend to the EDL level of debate!)

I don't think anyone is "blaming the browns", but it is a fact that the Muslim community in Luton has always been militant and anti-integration. No amount of "helping to integrate" will work if those you're trying to help refuse to be integrated.

You mention the EDL... let's not forget that the EDL was formed in Luton after the Muslim community disrupted and disrespected a parade in honour of veterans... oh and let's not forget where the 7/7 bombers were from...

The sad truth is that Luton does have extremists on both sides of the racial divide, but I can't help but feel that the non-Muslim population of Luton are fed up of being told that they must "help" their Muslim neighbours to integrate when every attempt to do so just gets spat straight back in their faces!

 

[EM2]

oh and let's not forget where the 7/7 bombers were from...

They may have travelled from Luton but they were from Leeds, Leeds, Bradford and Aylesbury.

 

[Bromley boy]

BTW lets not play who is more northern. Sheffield is almost in the south east.

As I never tire of reminding a mate of mine from Workswirth - who sets great store on being a “northerner” down here - he’s actually from the midlands .

it is a terribly divided community - the question is why (& i would prefer not to descend to the EDL level of debate!)

There are clear issues in Luton, and other parts of the U.K. (parts of East London, Bradford) around lack of integration and ghettoisation.

Looking at the groups concerned they are predominantly Bengali and Pakistani, groups which have some of the lowest rates of employment and engagement in UK society - particularly amongst women. The mistake many make is assuming that people from other parts of the world are the same as “us”. That is not the case. Many do not subscribe to values you or I would recognise as cornerstone to a secular, liberal democracy: equality for women, acceptance of homosexuality etc.

This is a valid question that needs to be addressed rather than ignored as too difficult to deal with in an age of political correctness. I would argue that sweeping things under the carpet and denying the issue is itself playing into the hands of the EDL.

We need to be honest enough to ask more about the values of people we bring into this country and ensure they at least have the ability to access the job market, access services etc. Speaking English would be a good start.

To play devils advocate it also fails if the existing culture isn't able or willing to support and train the new entrants to the required local standards.

That’s true, but I don’t think that’s the case in Luton. There are plenty of ethnic groups in this country who integrate very well and indeed out perform their white counterparts.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think anyone is "blaming the browns", but it is a fact that the Muslim community in Luton has always been militant and anti-integration. No amount of "helping to integrate" will work if those you're trying to help refuse to be integrated.

You mention the EDL... let's not forget that the EDL was formed in Luton after the Muslim community disrupted and disrespected a parade in honour of veterans... oh and let's not forget where the 7/7 bombers were from...

The sad truth is that Luton does have extremists on both sides of the racial divide, but I can't help but feel that the non-Muslim population of Luton are fed up of being told that they must "help" their Muslim neighbours to integrate when every attempt to do so just gets spat straight back in their faces!

I am well aware of the EDL thanks. There is something clearly very wrong in the town that has led to such divided communities. It cant be ENTIRELY the fault of the brown people - I wonder if our views on integration may differ.

As an aside the 7/7 bombers were not from Luton. They were form Yorkshire

As I never tire of reminding a mate of mine from Workswirth - who sets great store on being a “northerner” down here - he’s actually from the midlands .

There is no Midlands - Only North and cockneys

There are clear issues in Luton, and other parts of the U.K. (parts of East London, Bradford) around lack of integration and ghettoisation.

Looking at the groups concerned they are predominantly Bengali and Pakistani, groups which have some of the lowest rates of employment and engagement in UK society - particularly amongst women. The mistake many make is assuming that people from other parts of the world are the same as “us”. That is not the case. Many do not subscribe to values you or I would recognise as cornerstone to a secular, liberal democracy: equality for women, acceptance of homosexuality etc.

This is a valid question that needs to be addressed rather than ignored as too difficult to deal with in an age of political correctness. I would argue that sweeping things under the carpet and denying the issue is itself playing into the hands of the EDL.

We need to be honest enough to ask more about the values of people we bring into this country and ensure they at least have the ability to access the job market, access services etc. Speaking English would be a good start.

I agree entirely - i have no problem with people moving here to work. I would like them to have some knowledge of the norms we live by and an ability to integrate.

The other issue is that by discussing these problems it is VERY easy to offer succor to EDL/Alt right nut jobs. We need an honest, open debate but we don't need the send them all home club.

That’s true, but I don’t think that’s the case in Luton. There are plenty of ethnic groups in this country who integrate very well and indeed out perform their white counterparts.

Again I agree. I simply wanted to point out that I don't think we can simply blame one section of the community for the failure of the whole.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

They may have travelled from Luton but they were from Leeds, Leeds, Bradford and Aylesbury.

maybe... but think about it logically... they grouped together at Luton... meaning they stayed overnight... in a safe house... it's a pretty safe bet that they congregated at "HQ" and that the whole thing was planned in Luton.. especially given the militancy of the Muslim community there...

and tbh, the distinction is rather irrelevant really... the problem is there was anger among the non-Muslim community that Luton's name was dragged through the mud by the news reports at the time...

There have been many other problems caused by the Muslim community in Luton, and they can't even be "civilised" amongst themselves... there was a period of about a year a few years back when 50 police officers were detailed to patrol the area around the Central Mosque because there was rioting and out and out battles between 2 factions who couldn't agree who should have control of the Mosque... it may be unfair, but that episode left a very sour taste among the non-Muslims, especially when Luton has a higher than average crime rate and the Police were already overstretched

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Maybe they need to launch a "I Love Luton" - brand , akin to NYC in the 1970's.....and beyond.

Tongue in cheek of course.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I am well aware of the EDL thanks. There is something clearly very wrong in the town that has led to such divided communities. It cant be ENTIRELY the fault of the brown people - I wonder if our views on integration may differ.

To be honest I think it disingenious to say people are "blaming the browns"... the problem is adherents of one particular religion... Islam... and as someone else has already said, adherents from a particular area of the world... the Indian subcontinent. I always found Hindus Sikhs Black Muslims, West Indians etc willing and able to integrate... The truth is Muslims from the subcontinent, at least the vocal bunch who get all the attention, have come to this country because they "like our values" and then spend all their time shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!

As an aside the 7/7 bombers were not from Luton. They were form Yorkshire

See my above post... perhaps better wording would have been "where the 7/7 bombers travelled from

 

[EM2]

maybe... but think about it logically... they grouped together at Luton... meaning they stayed overnight... in a safe house...

Again, that is incorrect. Three of them drove down to Luton from Leeds that morning, and met the fourth at the station.

 

[DarloRich]

See my above post... perhaps better wording would have been "where the 7/7 bombers travelled from

they drove and got the train from there. This information is all in the public domain. If there was a safe house it was in Dewsbury or Batley not Luton. I am sure there are plenty of proto islamonut jobs in Luton. They didn't include these morons.

As an aside this is exactly the kind of disinformation extremists like the EDL traffic in.

To be honest I think it disingenious to say people are "blaming the browns"... the problem is adherents of one particular religion... Islam... and as someone else has already said, adherents from a particular area of the world... the Indian subcontinent. I always found Hindus Sikhs Black Muslims, West Indians etc willing and able to integrate... The truth is Muslims from the subcontinent, at least the vocal bunch who get all the attention, have come to this country because they "like our values" and then spend all their time shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!

And yet i work with several Muslim people of both sexes who live in and are from Luton. They are integrated into the wider community but still Muslim. I suspect that the numbers "shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!" are fairly low. Perhaps it is more to do with Religion AND socioeconomic status than simply being a muslim.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Again, that is incorrect. They drove down to Luton from Leeds that morning.

well I hope there was independent corroboration of that... after all they would hardly say "oh yes well we came down 2 days ago and we've been staying in a safe house and oh here's the address"

Still doesn't alter the fact that there was anger, shame and outrage amongst the non-Muslim community that the images of them boarding a train at Luton Stn dragged Luton's name through the mud.

As an aside... if that version of events is correct then a question has to be asked... why did they drive down to Luton? After all there are direct trains from Leeds to London aren't there? There must have been a reason for their actions... after all they weren't worried about covering their tracks were they, they were suicide bombers so I assume they intended that it wouldn't matter to them...

 

[DarloRich]

well I hope there was independent corroboration of that... after all they would hardly say "oh yes well we came down 2 days ago and we've been staying in a safe house and oh here's the address"

Still doesn't alter the fact that there was anger, shame and outrage amongst the non-Muslim community that the images of them boarding a train at Luton Stn dragged Luton's name through the mud.

As an aside... if that version of events is correct then a question has to be asked... why did they drive down to Luton? After all there are direct trains from Leeds to London aren't there? There must have been a reason for their actions... after all they weren't worried about covering their tracks were they, they were suicide bombers so I assume they intended that it wouldn't matter to them...

Christ on a bike - there was an investigation by the police and security services! I am fairly certain they checked these things!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

they drove and got the train from there. This information is all in the public domain. If there was a safe house it was in Dewsbury or Batley not Luton. I am sure there are plenty of proto islamonut jobs in Luton. They didn't include these morons.

As an aside this is exactly the kind of disinformation extremists like the EDL traffic in.



And yet i work with several Muslim people of both sexes who live in and are from Luton. They are integrated into the wider community but still Muslim. I suspect that the numbers "shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!" are fairly low. Perhaps it is more to do with Religion AND socioeconomic status than simply being a muslim.

yes and I grew up in Luton, spending the first half of my life there, and many more years visiting friends and relatives... I can assure you that, in general, the Muslim community from the subcontinent are not integrated into the wider community, and nor do they want to... there are 2nd generation Muslims in Luton that have very limited command of the English language...

even 25 years ago it was unsafe for a non-Muslim to walk through Bury Park alone at night...the fact remains that Luton is a very divided society and multiculturism has failed the town miserably. And considering that the community that hasn't integrated is the Muslim community then despite your wish that I wouldn't point the finger, surely the fault lays at the feet of the group that hasn't integrated...

and before you claim it is a reaction to recent events causing Islamaphobia, then note these problems have been endemic in Luton for over 35 years!

 

[DarloRich]

yes and I grew up in Luton, spending the first half of my life there, and many more years visiting friends and relatives... I can assure you that, in general, the Muslim community from the subcontinent are not integrated into the wider community, and nor do they want to... there are 2nd generation Muslims in Luton that have very limited command of the English language...

even 25 years ago it was unsafe for a non-Muslim to walk through Bury Park alone at night...the fact remains that Luton is a very divided society and multiculturism has failed the town miserably. And considering that the community that hasn't integrated is the Muslim community then despite your wish that I wouldn't point the finger, surely the fault lays at the feet of the group that hasn't integrated...

and before you claim it is a reaction to recent events causing Islamaphobia, then note these problems have been endemic in Luton for over 35 years!

I am simply suggesting it is very easy to blame one group of people because they are different. That is the easy way out. You don't seem to want to ask the question why they don't ( in your view) want to integrate. Why don't they want to? They cant all want to kill us and destroy our way of life.

It is odd that several of your statements seem straight out of the EDL media play book. The one about the Luton safe house you seem fixated on is easily disproved. The bomb factory was in Hyde Park in Leeds.

 

[Bromley boy]

I agree entirely - i have no problem with people moving here to work. I would like them to have some knowledge of the norms we live by and an ability to integrate.

That’s exactly where I’m coming from. I don’t actually think we are that far apart on this issue.

The other issue is that by discussing these problems it is VERY easy to offer succor to EDL/Alt right nut jobs. We need an honest, open debate but we don't need the send them all home club.

It cuts both ways. I think over the last 20 years or so we have been unable to discuss these issues in an open and honest manner, because debate is shut down amid cries of “racism”.

It was interesting to note @Teflon Lettuce ‘s comment that the EDL was formed in Luton - I was unaware of that. I think that demonstrated the issue. If people are not listened to, and issues are swept under the carpet, it just gives oxygen to extremism.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I am simply suggesting it is very easy to blame one group of people because they are different. That is the easy way out. You don't seem to want to ask the question why they don't ( in your view) want to integrate. Why don't they want to? They cant all want to kill us and destroy our way of life.

It is odd that several of your statements seem straight out of the EDL media play book. The one about the Luton safe house you seem fixated on is easily disproved. The bomb factory was in Hyde Park in Leeds.

Sorry but it is you that is fixated, in a vain attempt to prove that Luton's problems have nothing to do with Muslims... if you read ALL my posts up until you decided to pull me up on one point you will see that I have given a number of reasons for Luton's problems

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It was interesting to note @Teflon Lettuce ‘s comment that the EDL was formed in Luton - I was unaware of that. I think that demonstrated the issue. If people are not listened to, and issues are swept under the carpet, it just gives oxygen to extremism.

actually it was formed as a direct consequence of 2 militant Islamic groups staging a demonstration against, and disrupting, a parade in honour of Afghanistan veterans. You could say that it was the straw that broke the camel's back in Luton after years of militant Islamic activity which had and still is largely ignored by the establishment and authorities for fear of being seen as racist

 

[Iskra]

There's nothing to call out. Read what I said, not what you thought that I said.


Correct, as I said. It's an expression, - not mine, maybe somebody with experience of northern mill towns coined it.


That's true, but it seems that Luton's continued decline despite immense pressures on affordable housing in the south-east is an exception. Luton doesn't even have any sense of identity, except maybe from EDL supporters.

I'm not saying you said anything! I wasn't even referring to you originally!

you are being silly and willfully misrepresenting things.



It was me who said it initially more focused on North East industrial towns. Towns that I know very well. Luton has the same run down, disenfranchised and abandoned feel. The point you miss ( perhaps willfully once again) is that Luton being such a dump offers cheap housing by SE standards yet does not seem to have changed. The other towns in the area are noticeably better off. Luton isn't like that. It feels like the towns I know in the North East that have been left behind. It has a very desolate northern feel and the same sort of crushing futility that you come across in former pit towns. I get that in Seaham or Easington. I don't in Luton.

BTW lets not play who is more northern. Sheffield is almost in the south east.



Sadly you are wrong. Other towns in the area do not suffer in the same way Luton does. it should be attracting young commuters looking to own their own home. It has superb rail links to London, an airport, the M1 very close by and the A1M not that far away.

No. Stereotypes and generalisations are silly.

The North East is hardly known for it's mill towns. Steel, coal, locomotives, shipyards, yes. Mill towns are more of a Lancashire and Yorkshire thing.

You seem to associate Northern, with crap- that's the impression you're giving off. You do realise we aren't in the 80's anymore and a lot of these 'desolate Northern towns' have changed and are doing quite alright without the blight of heavy industry? Crushing futility, still? Most pits have long since closed down and you'd hardly know they were ever even there. Are you a glass half-empty person by any chance?

I'm not from Sheffield, but thanks. South starts just after Chesterfield