Magistrates Court Fines and ACRO (Criminal Record checks)

[neverinswindon]

A few days ago my mum got a letter (in my name) from a company called Marstons High Court Enforcement Officers, which says I owe them £700 for something they do not specify but relates to a fine imposed on my by Swindon Magistrates Court. It does not specify what the fine is for.

Now, I was a bit baffled by all this, not least because I've never been to Swindon. The only thing I can think it might be relates to a train fine I was given in August 2017, though when I called Marstons they were not able to give me any detail on the case and asked me to call back again. Now, assuming it is the train thing from 2017, the situation is as follows: I did not live in the UK at the time, nor do I live in the UK now. I was on holiday visiting for a friend's wedding in Cornwall and had a ticket from London to St Austell. During the train journey I learned it would be better to get off at Truro (one stop further) because people could pick us up there. No problem, I thought.

So I got off at Truro, whereupon I discovered there was a ticket barrier to exit the station. I stood there wondering what to do, and a guy came over and asked to see my ticket. I explained that my ticket only went to St Austell and that I'd got off a stop later. He then said that as I'd attempted to leave the station without a valid ticket that I'd have to pay a fine. I was incensed by this and refused to pay. I would have been happy to pay the difference in ticket fare but a fine? It was something like £40 he was asking for. I was livid, and refused. So he took my details (foreign driving license - though I am a UK citizen) and gave me a thing to pay it in the next 28 days or whatever. Note: when he took my details he had insisted on me giving him a UK address, so I gave the address of the hotel where I was staying, safe in the knowledge nothing would arrive there before I left the country again a few days later. I promptly forgot all about it.

Flash forward to the other day and somehow this has ended up in Swindon Magistrates Court (I mean, it has to be that, otherwise it's a case of ID fraud, I can't imagine what else it could be) and somehow they've got my mum's address and sent this threatening letter saying the lads will be on their way round in the next 14 days if I don't give them £700.

My mum has sent them evidence that I don't live there (council tax records) with recorded delivery mail, to both Marstons, Swindon Magistrates Court and the High Court in London.

So my questions are:

1. Given that this clearly been through the whole escalation process because they couldn't get in touch with me, and I forgot all about it, what happens if I don't pay?
2. Do I already have this on my criminal record at this point?
3. Will this show up on an ACRO check?

Last but not least: if I do pay the fine, will this still be on my criminal record, if the answer to questions 2 and 3 is "yes" ?

Thank you all very much in advance.

 

[Spurs]

1. I'm not sure on. However, since you appear to have been unaware of the criminal proceedings against you, you do have the right to make a statutory declaration and restart the case. The problem is that you look to be 100% guilty of an offence - you are guilty of a lesser 'bylaw' offence automatically by not having a valid ticket, and very likely guilty of a more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence by intentionally continuing to travel without a valid ticket for your entire journey. Regardless, you could try to then make an out-of-court settlement which would avoid a conviction, and even if it did go to court again you may receive a lower fine depending on your income.
2. Yes, you do have a criminal record.
3. That depends on exactly what check you mean, and what you've been convicted of. It is unlikely to have a major impact on your life unless you work in very specific professions e.g. medicine or finance.

 

[WesternLancer]

A few days ago my mum got a letter (in my name) from a company called Marstons High Court Enforcement Officers, which says I owe them £700 for something they do not specify but relates to a fine imposed on my by Swindon Magistrates Court. It does not specify what the fine is for.

Now, I was a bit baffled by all this, not least because I've never been to Swindon. The only thing I can think it might be relates to a train fine I was given in August 2017, though when I called Marstons they were not able to give me any detail on the case and asked me to call back again. Now, assuming it is the train thing from 2017, the situation is as follows: I did not live in the UK at the time, nor do I live in the UK now. I was on holiday visiting for a friend's wedding in Cornwall and had a ticket from London to St Austell. During the train journey I learned it would be better to get off at Truro (one stop further) because people could pick us up there. No problem, I thought.

So I got off at Truro, whereupon I discovered there was a ticket barrier to exit the station. I stood there wondering what to do, and a guy came over and asked to see my ticket. I explained that my ticket only went to St Austell and that I'd got off a stop later. He then said that as I'd attempted to leave the station without a valid ticket that I'd have to pay a fine. I was incensed by this and refused to pay. I would have been happy to pay the difference in ticket fare but a fine? It was something like £40 he was asking for. I was livid, and refused. So he took my details (foreign driving license - though I am a UK citizen) and gave me a thing to pay it in the next 28 days or whatever. Note: when he took my details he had insisted on me giving him a UK address, so I gave the address of the hotel where I was staying, safe in the knowledge nothing would arrive there before I left the country again a few days later. I promptly forgot all about it.

Flash forward to the other day and somehow this has ended up in Swindon Magistrates Court (I mean, it has to be that, otherwise it's a case of ID fraud, I can't imagine what else it could be) and somehow they've got my mum's address and sent this threatening letter saying the lads will be on their way round in the next 14 days if I don't give them £700.

My mum has sent them evidence that I don't live there (council tax records) with recorded delivery mail, to both Marstons, Swindon Magistrates Court and the High Court in London.

So my questions are:

1. Given that this clearly been through the whole escalation process because they couldn't get in touch with me, and I forgot all about it, what happens if I don't pay?
2. Do I already have this on my criminal record at this point?
3. Will this show up on an ACRO check?

Last but not least: if I do pay the fine, will this still be on my criminal record, if the answer to questions 2 and 3 is "yes" ?

Thank you all very much in advance.

Some tricky ones here that I don't know enough to answer. However, I presume it would be possible to get via the court (or their on line records) if you can find the case what you were found guilty of and when and how much the fine was. There was a post on here recently - which I can't locate after a quick check - with a link to court service case records which might help you look it up - but you may need more info on the date at the court.

Presumably you were found guilt in your absence ( you would have been guilty in my view, given what you say you did - as any travel withotu valid ticket apart from certain set circumstances is automatically an offence as I understand it - the only alternative would have been to have found the guard on the train and bought from him a ticket to cover the extra distance traveled whilst still on board, an action you could have done had you known to do that, most guards would have been happy to do that if you explained to them what had happened ie change of plabn during a long journey that mean you needed an excess fare). If so I presume that you will have a criminal record.

The company chasing you via your mum is presumably an organisation that has bought the unpaid debt from the court. They will specialise in tracing people from old records so maybe got match of address records or old elec registration from before you left your parental home and have thus traced you to your mum's.

I think you have to seriously consider paying it, which is no doubt what you are doing, but you do need to check what the reason is and if this is indeed the case and is correct. Quite likely GWR use Swindon Court.

I don't think they can legitimately pursue your mum for the debt just because you used to live there and are related to her however.

Could maybe cause you problems if you don't pay and return to UK at some future date and need to apply for a mortgage, or credit for any reason.

Good luck sorting this out. Hardly your fault that they insisted on you giving a UK address for the stuff - which effectively denied you the ability to settle with them before the court case - would have been better for them to send the correspondence to Italy IMHO, but there we are.

**PS just spotted good response from Spurs - esp ref Statutory Declaration - but you might need to get legal advice before going down that route now which may simply add to costs you are facing of course.

 

[neverinswindon]

Ok, so I should send a statutory declaration to Swindon Magistrates Court and Marstons.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think they can legitimately pursue your mum for the debt just because you used to live there and are related to her however.

Correct. They might huff and puff about it but they can only claim goods that are owned by the person that owes the money. To try and claim a third parties gets them in all sorts of trouble. Mum sending off the info showing that the OP doesn't live there should, in theory, do the trick I'd expect.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok, so I should send a statutory declaration to Swindon Magistrates Court and Marstons.

May well be best course of action - but there are some regular posters on here who have posted in detail about Stat Decs in the past so maybe worth waiting a little bit to see if they post with any views on that (tho I see on line they want them within 21 days of you hearing about the matter for the 1st time so be mindful of time).

I guess you could also try ringing a legal firm or 2 in Swindon (maybe) to get a price for them doing that for you whilst you mull over the options.

But given the nature of the case you are still going to be found guilty unless the Stat Dec triggers a scenario that allows the train company to settle out of court and them wish to do so. or so it seems to me.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ok, so I should send a statutory declaration to Swindon Magistrates Court and Marstons.

Perhaps. I'd be tempted to seek some free legal advice first (most solicitors will do an initial consultation or free 30 minutes). I'm just slightly wary as it could be suggested you deliberately gave an address you knew you could not be contacted at. So I'm not certain if that impacts on the Statutory Declaration.

If you do get one though I would say that I'm not sure I'd expect you to be able to get a not guilty verdict. From what you've said it does appear a Byelaw offence was committed (sadly these are strict liability, intent doesn't enter into it). But it would dispose of any fees that Marston have added.

 

[WesternLancer]

But it would dispose of any fees that Marston have added.

But it would dispose of any fees that Marston have added.

Which would be a by product of seeking the court record of what happened so you could establish how much of the £700 was original fine and how much is any added fee.

FWIW I see a St Austell to Truro Single is £6.60 at Peak times. Even more annoying is that it looks to me like a London to St Austell fare is the same as a London to Truro Fare so the staff member you encountered on the gateline took a fairly hard line view.

 

[221129]

Also noting that giving a false address is also a separate offence is it possible you've been convicted of both? I would suggest that you are likely to have been convicted under S.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act and if you have unpaid criminal fines you might find it difficult to enter back into the UK on your next visit.

 

[ainsworth74]

Also noting that giving a false address is also a separate offence is it possible you've been convicted of both? I would suggest that you are likely to have been convicted under S.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act and if you have unpaid criminal fines you might find it difficult to enter back into the UK on your next visit.

I did wonder about that as well. I'm just not sure what the threshold of "false address" is. When it was given it was an accurate address the person was residing there and could be found there. They just knew they wouldn't be there for long...

 

[WesternLancer]

Also noting that giving a false address is also a separate offence is it possible you've been convicted of both? I would suggest that you are likely to have been convicted under S.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act and if you have unpaid criminal fines you might find it difficult to enter back into the UK on your next visit.

As Ainsworth said by insisting on a UK address the OP had little choice but to give either the address they were staying at (even tho I note OP says that they knew they would have long left it before any letters turned up) or the address of a relative - which may or may not be practical - and some overseas visitors would no have such relative's address - indeed many would not. So IMHO the OP did not give a false address, just a less than useful one, which is what the train staff insisted on obtaining as they clearly don't want to incur overseas postage charges - which is their choice I guess!

Of course the hotel could have told the enforcement body of the address that the hotel had been given by the guest when the guest booked, but I doubt anything happens in practice where said enforcement body ever contacts the hotel over such a crime, and the hotel probably just rtns such post to sender, or more likely puts it in the bin.

Consequences of all this may of course have an impact at a passport control point in the future however, as is mentioned, but not sure how that works.

 

[38Cto15E]

neverinswindon
I think that it may be in your best interests to sort this problem out once and for all, you do not want the problem to escalate so that when you try to come back to the UK there is an arrest warrant awaiting you.
The advice to consult a solicitor sounds good to me.

 

[neverinswindon]

thanks all

 

[father_jack]

FWIW I see a St Austell to Truro Single is £6.60 at Peak times. Even more annoying is that it looks to me like a London to St Austell fare is the same as a London to Truro Fare so the staff member you encountered on the gateline took a fairly hard line view.

Isn't the passenger obliged to have a ticket or tickets that cover the entire journey that they intend to make ?

Would the situation have been handled differently had the OP approached and explained to the staff rather than putting a St Austell ticket in the gate for it to go beep beep.....

 

[WesternLancer]

Isn't the passenger obliged to have a ticket or tickets that cover the entire journey that they intend to make ?

Would the situation have been handled differently had the OP approached and explained to the staff rather than putting a St Austell ticket in the gate for it to go beep beep.....

Yes the passenger is - which is why it would seem that he would be automatically guilty even if case heard again.

Ref your 2nd point - nothing in what OP says suggests he got as far as putting a ticket in the gate, and one can not really know what the staff would have done if he had gone to speak to them as opposed to wondering what to do I would say. Only real option would have been to have gone to find gaurd before St Austell to see if they would sell extra ticket or advise that if he did not get off at St Austell, go out and get another ticket then get the next train they would report him as a fare dodger. My bet is the guard would have probably sold the extra ticket but this is irrelevant speculation.

"So I got off at Truro, whereupon I discovered there was a ticket barrier to exit the station. I stood there wondering what to do, and a guy came over and asked to see my ticket. I explained that my ticket only went to St Austell and that I'd got off a stop later. He then said that as I'd attempted to leave the station without a valid ticket that I'd have to pay a fine."

My personal take is that the OP thought it would not matter much if they traveled on and would be able to pay the normal fare if they got asked / challenged, or may even have intended to go to the ticket office at Truro, but refused to pay when a higher sum than the normal assumed fare was demanded at Truro.

 

[Bungle158]

Also noting that giving a false address is also a separate offence is it possible you've been convicted of both? I would suggest that you are likely to have been convicted under S.5 of the Regulation of Railways Act and if you have unpaid criminal fines you might find it difficult to enter back into the UK on your next visit.

No problem for a UK citizen entering the UK border in these circumstances. However, your name MAY flag up at immigration. That in turn MAY lead to a chat with the police.

 

[Vespa]

It might have been easier for future reference if you decide to go to the next station beyond your ticket at the last minute, is to buy the ticket online through your phone while on the train and download the ticket to show to the ticket staff or revenue protection if necessary.

 

[packermac]

I am confused by this case. According to the GWR Penalty Fares map this is a penalty fares area and the passenger had originated from a penalty fares area station.
GWR 's own words state
"A Penalty Fare is issued for twice the full single fare, to the next station stop, or £20, whichever is the greater. Anyone issued a Penalty Fare will then need to pay the full single fare for the rest of their journey. Penalty Fares are issued in accordance with the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.
Report for consideration of prosecution Where Penalty Fares do not apply, either where there are more serious issues with a journey or you are travelling outside of a Penalty Fare area, our inspectors are trained to report the incident to GWR. We then review each individual case and decide how it is best resolved. We carefully consider each case and base our decision on the facts gathered."
So can one of the ticket experts tell me how overrunning by one station when a large value fare has already been paid is classed as "more serious issues with a journey"
Or is this once again GWR appearing to pick at the "low hanging fruit" of people making errors, broken TVM's etc rather than going after proper fare dodgers.

 

[ainsworth74]

So can one of the ticket experts tell me how overrunning by one station when a large value fare has already been paid is classed as "more serious issues with a journey"

By not paying the penalty fare or refusing to be issued one. Leaves only one course of action open at that stage which is prosecution.

 

[Haywain]

GWR appearing to pick at the "low hanging fruit" of people making errors, broken TVM's etc

To be fair to GWR, I believe they are noted for trying to avoid going to court where possible and settling but where they have no communication with the offender they have little choice.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am confused by this case. According to the GWR Penalty Fares map this is a penalty fares area and the passenger had originated from a penalty fares area station.
GWR 's own words state
"A Penalty Fare is issued for twice the full single fare, to the next station stop, or £20, whichever is the greater. Anyone issued a Penalty Fare will then need to pay the full single fare for the rest of their journey. Penalty Fares are issued in accordance with the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.
Report for consideration of prosecution Where Penalty Fares do not apply, either where there are more serious issues with a journey or you are travelling outside of a Penalty Fare area, our inspectors are trained to report the incident to GWR. We then review each individual case and decide how it is best resolved. We carefully consider each case and base our decision on the facts gathered."
So can one of the ticket experts tell me how overrunning by one station when a large value fare has already been paid is classed as "more serious issues with a journey"
Or is this once again GWR appearing to pick at the "low hanging fruit" of people making errors, broken TVM's etc rather than going after proper fare dodgers.

we don't know that the OP wasn't on the lowest £25 Advance fare Paddington - St Austell do we (poss cheaper in 2017 when the incident occured...)
But it prob was low hanging fruit and presumably it was a PF (if that was applicable in 2017) that was demanded.

OP recalls he was being asked for £40 tho I'd have thought it would be £20 PF for a £6ish single fare so is that an interesting point?

But this is all water under the bridge compared with current problem faced which is the £700 fine accrued from being unaware of the Court action which I suspect the OP might have taken seriously at the time had they actually taken his correct address, instead of insisting on a UK address that he did not have.

 

[Enthusiast]

Ok, so I should send a statutory declaration to Swindon Magistrates Court and Marstons.

You cannot send a Statutory Declaration. You have to go, in person, before either a Magistrates' Court or a solicitor. There are other people who can hear it, such as an officer of the armed forces of the rank of Major/Squadron Leader/Lieutenant Commander or above but (a) you might have more difficulty finding one of those, (b) they probably wouldn't know they were able to deal with it and (c) even if they did they probably wouldn't know the procedure. So, a Magistrates' Court or a solicitor it is. The court will do it for free (though you may have difficulty getting an appointment at the moment for obvious reasons) or a solicitor may charge a small fee (perhaps £5 to £10). If you make it at a court other than Swindon the court will ensure it is forwarded to there. If you make it at a solicitors it will be your responsibility to deliver it to Swindon.

A court must hear your declaration if it is made within 21 days of learning of your conviction and it may hear it outside that time if they accept you have a valid reason for the delay. Once it has been served on Swindon Magistrates Court your conviction will be set aside and all consequences from it (fine, costs, etc.) will be void. It is then up to the railway company to begin proceedings again.

Of course this is all very well, but since you're not in the UK at present you will obviously have some difficulty making your SD (in fact you would even if you were here at present). You give your location as Italy so I assume you're there. I've no idea whether SD's are part of the Italian legal process or not or whether one made there would be accepted in the UK. In any case I imagine you will have even more difficulty making an SD in Italy than you would here at present anyway.

Looks like you will have to leave your Mum to fend off the bailiffs and deal with the matter if and when you return to the UK.

 

[philthetube]

It might be worth writing to the relevant court asking what you should do about making a statutory declaration considering the current circumstances, they may make a suggestion or at least make note that you have tried, which could be useful later.