Major new electrification projects to be anounced shortly

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Woody

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TRANSPORT Secretary Justine Greening is poised to pump billions of pounds into the rail network to cut journey times and boost growth.In days she will announce plans for a major new electrification project to upgrade key rail routes across the country.Among the other schemes vying for funds is one which will link valley towns in South Wales with Swansea and Cardiff after plans to electrify the Great Western Mainline as far as *Cardiff were announced last year.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/331484/-billion-rail-boost-will-electrify-the-Midlands
 
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HSTEd

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Still no Midland Main Line electrification.......

The valley lines has to come a distant second to that and the cross country route.
 

ainsworth74

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If this really did happen surely this should be the death of IEP daul power!

Oh I'm sure the one civil servant (at least I think it's one) that continues to push IEP will find some way of fudging the numbers to ensure that Bi-Mode is still needed :roll:

Though there's always a chance Greening will see through the insanity, she doesn't seem to be a total fool.

Still no Midland Main Line electrification.......

The valley lines has to come a distant second to that and the cross country route.

Depends what you're trying to do. If you want to get rid of Pacers and free up Sprinters to replace Pacers elsewhere, electrifying the Valleys is a good way to start.
 

cle

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MML has 4-5 tph out of St Pancras each hour.

The Valleys have more, albeit shorter formed. Perhaps it's better value even if it's not as 'sexy' a scheme. The benefits are felt better on stopping routes (hilly ones even more so) - and combined with the 1tph Paddington Swansea, it might just make more sense.

And the Valleys economically need it more. They're ostensibly dormitory towns now they're mainly post-industrial, so quick journeys to Cardiff are crucial.
 

Failed Unit

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MML has 4-5 tph out of St Pancras each hour.

The Valleys have more, albeit shorter formed. Perhaps it's better value even if it's not as 'sexy' a scheme. The benefits are felt better on stopping routes (hilly ones even more so) - and combined with the 1tph Paddington Swansea, it might just make more sense.

And the Valleys economically need it more. They're ostensibly dormitory towns now they're mainly post-industrial, so quick journeys to Cardiff are crucial.

The other thing with MML is that the rolling stock is not in any immediate need of replacement. The valley lines however has got rolling stock in immediate need of replacement which will help influence things. Not sure if the valleys need resignalling but again I don't think that is the case with MML.
 

swt_passenger

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Still no Midland Main Line electrification.......

The article does clearly refer to the MML though. The line speed increases to 125 mph are already budgeted for in the CP4 settlement, and are due in the next year or too. The text refers explicitly to electrifying the MML, and dealing with the necessary resignalling. Perhaps if people followed the link and read it?

If these really are leaks of the CP5 HLOS there is every reason to believe that this is MML electrification. This has been highlighted before to be one of the flagship national schemes for CP5...
 

cle

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Well hopefully they don't have to compete - the MML is very deserving too. And those Meridians and HSTs could help XC enormously. But GWML HSTs will be spare by then too, if not retired.

Speed enhancements are coming to the MML anyway - if trains can reach line speed quicker then journey times could be even more improved. Some more tripling/quadding/station looping north of Bedford would be good too.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The other thing with MML is that the rolling stock is not in any immediate need of replacement. The valley lines however has got rolling stock in immediate need of replacement which will help influence things. Not sure if the valleys need resignalling but again I don't think that is the case with MML.

The MML decision is supposedly linked to the HS2 route, though I don't see what would change south of Derby.
It is always presented as an isolated Bedford-Derby/Nottingham-Sheffield project, which seems to me to ignore the wider network benefits if the wires reached Doncaster/Moorthorpe.

In any case it would be an all-electric route, so no bi-mode complications.
However there would have to be a home for the existing 22x trains for the business case to be viable.
I suppose the candidates for this would be XC routes and GW routes to the south-west (replacing HSTs).
I'd be surprised if an e-Voyager solution was viable (too great a technology clash).

Valleys electrification is urban/metro in character and tied up with devolution. I'm sure it will get the go-ahead in some form, tacked on to Cardiff main line electrification, as enough politicians have made statements that would be hard to reverse. (The same goes for IEP, of course).
 

swt_passenger

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The MML decision is supposedly linked to the HS2 route...

I've seen that mentioned now and again, however HS2 is not mentioned at all in the context of the CP5 proposals for the MML which appeared only last September.

I don't think HS(NE) is that relevant to MML anymore, the HS line is probably 20-25 years away, so electrification probably stacks up financially anyway - as NR explain in their proposal it is good value even if outside DfT's existing rolling stock strategy...
 

Chris125

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It is always presented as an isolated Bedford-Derby/Nottingham-Sheffield project, which seems to me to ignore the wider network benefits if the wires reached Doncaster/Moorthorpe.

GWML, NW and TP electrification all started off with an announcement of a core section but have since grown, and in some cases might continue to do so - i expect the same will happen with the MML.

Chris
 

Batman

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Hang on a minute, wouldn't MML electrification vastly improve the business case for XC infill electrification?

If the MML is electrified from Bedford to Nottingham, Kettering to Corby, Long Eaton to Moorthorpe, Swinton to Doncaster and possibly the Erewash Vally line, that would mean that only three phases of XC infill electrification will be needed (Oxford to Coventry, Birmingham to Derby and Barnt Green to Bristol Parkway with electrification of the fast lines from King's Norton to Barnt Green). Bi-mode would still be needed for XC trains to reach places like Plymouth, Southampton and Dundee.

I don't know what the business case would be like for electrification from Leamington to Birmingham via Solihull, or what effect that would have on the business case for fully electrifying the Birmingham Snow Hill lines.
 

ushawk

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Think the Valley Lines/Cardiff to Swansea are probably the most likely lines to be electrified now due to the ancient rolling stock. Would be easier to electrify it now with new RS in the process than ordering new diesels which would just be replaced. The MML could do with electrification, but the 222's arent really that old so it isnt as much of a priority. Once the Valleys are done however, id expect it to be the next line to be done.

Would like to see some in-filling down South as well, shouldnt be too expensive either.
 

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Wait - we are taking the Daily Express as "gospel" now? Did they find Princess Diana's will, in which she bequeathed the nation enough baubles to electrify the Valley Lines? :lol:

Still no Midland Main Line electrification.......

The valley lines has to come a distant second to that and the cross country route.

Depends what you're trying to do. If you want to get rid of Pacers and free up Sprinters to replace Pacers elsewhere, electrifying the Valleys is a good way to start.

Whilst I live on the MML (a long way away from Cardiff), I'd probably put the core Valley Lines ahead of the MML in terms of electrification - you'd free up thirty-something DMU diagrams (IIRC due to doubling up/ spares, we calculated that these would free up almost fifty Pacers, once any ATW 150s on Valley services were moved to replace Pacers elsewhere, which would be a huge boost before 31 December 2019).

My fear with MML electrification is that it won't be done "properly" - to work you'd need to wire the routes that the current St Pancras departures use (Bedford to Sheffield, Nottingham and Corby) plus:

  • Nottingham to Chesterfield
  • Sheffield to Doncaster
  • Swinton to Moorthorpe
  • Meadowhall to Leeds via Castleford

Plus potentially Derby to Birmingham too (to fill what would be a small unelectrified gap in the XC route from Glasgow to Birmingham down the ECML). Just wiring the basic route from Bedford to Nottingham and Sheffield would leave a lot of small unwired sections that could free up a number of Pacers (Sheffield to Adwick, Sheffield to Leeds via Dearne Valley, Sheffield to Leeds via Castleford) or free up other DMUs (Nottingham to Leeds, maybe even Sheffield to Hull if the line to the Humberside Riviera is being wired as part of the TPE North deal?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
GWML, NW and TP electrification all started off with an announcement of a core section but have since grown, and in some cases might continue to do so - i expect the same will happen with the MML.

Chris

That's a fair point Chris - the initial announcements lacked some meaty sections like Manchester - Preston via Bolton - as one section is wired, so the business case for neighbouring schemes improves.

I just hope that we don't leave any daft little "islands" (like Coventry - Nuneaton or Ashford - Ore) when these schemes are done, because it may take a long time to resolve.
 

HSTEd

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There will never be sufficient electrification to avoid having to order huge numbers of new DMUs to replace the second generation types.

The "replace Pacers with electrics" argument is flawed because we will just have to purchase new DMUs in a few years time to replace the Sprinters, including the huge fleet of 23m Sprinters spread all over the place.
We could order the DMUs now and replace the Sprinters with electrics when we get around to it.

As to the "no rolling stock in urgent need of replacement" on the MML.... the HSTs are bound by the same limit as the Pacers... 2019 and they have to be gone.
Electrification of the MML gets rid of 96 non compliant 23m carriages from the HST fleet alone before we even consider Sprinters and the trains that can be displaced by the cascaded 22x units.
(You could potentially say goodbye to the Cornish and XC HSTs even without the eVoyager concept being applied to them).

(The Valley Line TOC only had 58 Pacer carriages and 12 Class 150 carriages, which can't hope to compare to the replacements available on the MML)
 

Batman

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I big issue with XC infill electrification is how far do you take it into the South West.

It could theoretically stop at Bristol, or it could go all the pay to Plymouth. With Bi-mode, the option are limitless.

Are we just talking about major electrification projects here, is it likely that Greening will announce other more local projects as well? Or will we have to wait till the autumn statement in November?
 

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There will never be sufficient electrification to avoid having to order huge numbers of new DMUs to replace the second generation types

I agree with this bit - we need to order some basic DMUs (75mph etc) before the end of the decade - we need our 158/170s etc for the 90/100mph routes that they are suited for - we can't just dump them down the food chain onto routes that they aren't designed for (frequent stop/start).

As to the "no rolling stock in urgent need of replacement" on the MML.... the HSTs are bound by the same limit as the Pacers... 2019 and they have to be gone

HSTs would be a lot easier to bring into the post-DDA world though, there's a lot more room for a disabled toilet on an eight coach rake than there is on a thirty metre Pacer.

HSTs are planned to continue running GWML services to Cornwall for another couple of decades.
 

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Are we just talking about major electrification projects here, is it likely that Greening will announce other more local projects as well? Or will we have to wait till the autumn statement in November?

Beware what happened to EGIP last week - scope essentially halved.
There would be glum faces in Scotland if new electrification was approved south of the border just as their schemes were cut.
 

HSTEd

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HSTs would be a lot easier to bring into the post-DDA world though, there's a lot more room for a disabled toilet on an eight coach rake than there is on a thirty metre Pacer.
The Pacers atleast have power doors already, the size of the rebuild that Chiltern has performed on the Mark 3s is rather extreme, and attempting to implement that on the entire remaining HST fleet would be a nightmare.... and kill off any chance of MML electrification in the near future.

HSTs are planned to continue running GWML services to Cornwall for another couple of decades.

I am expecting this to be eliminated from the programme if the WAG agrees to fund electrification all the way to Swansea, as the line to Plymouth and Paignton will be cleared for IEPs regardless according to the Greater Western ITT I can see the funding being pushed forward to clear to Penzance in order to save the bi-mode IEP.
 

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Beware what happened to EGIP last week - scope essentially halved.
There would be glum faces in Scotland if new electrification was approved south of the border just as their schemes were cut.

Just another example of the Scottish public believing that Westminster is following an England first policy.

Because every good Scot likes to ignore the fact that Hollyrood have responsibility for railway improvements so that we can blame those nasty English tories for something they have no responsibility over.
 

swt_passenger

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Are we just talking about major electrification projects here, is it likely that Greening will announce other more local projects as well? Or will we have to wait till the autumn statement in November?

We are talking about the High Level Output Statement (HLOS) here surely? The timetable for that is that it should be published by DfT this month, in practice this should before the recess on July 17th - so potentially this week...

ORR PR13 key dates timetable said:
By 31 July 2012 The Secretary of State for Transport and Scottish Ministers publish their HLOSs/SoFAs

However the 'autumn statement' is down to the Chancellor - I don't think that would announce anything extra in addition to the HLOS. It might well repeat the figures in the HLOS for effect - as we've seen both governments do with infrastructure announcements many times over the last few years... :roll:
 

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But enough anti-Scottish sarcasm for now. On a more serious note I was just wondering if a couple of electrification schemes I'd like to see happen in my local area (Walsall to Rugeley and Walsall to Aldridge) are likely to be announced this week, or will it just be mainline electrification?
 

philjo

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But enough anti-Scottish sarcasm for now. On a more serious note I was just wondering if a couple of electrification schemes I'd like to see happen in my local area (Walsall to Rugeley and Walsall to Aldridge) are likely to be announced this week, or will it just be mainline electrification?
In the latest Rail that arrived on Saturday it mentioned that DfT have accepted that wiring Walsall to Rugeley has a positive business case & would free up DMUs plus providing an alternative electric route northwards from Birmingham to WCML.
 

swt_passenger

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The Express article does include this wording:

"Miss Greening will reveal details of funding and the number of projects likely to get the go-ahead between 2014 and 2019. Campaigners will find out before the Commons summer *recess on July 17 which schemes have triumphed..."

As I just posted above that means the announcement is about the next HLOS. NR's proposals for CP5 were published last September, this should not just be thought of as about electrification projects...
 

philjo

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I think a further announcement regarding decisions for East-West rail was due in July if I remember correctly from the original statement in the autumn statement last year.
 

Aictos

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Hang on a minute, wouldn't MML electrification vastly improve the business case for XC infill electrification?

If the MML is electrified from Bedford to Nottingham, Kettering to Corby, Long Eaton to Moorthorpe, Swinton to Doncaster and possibly the Erewash Vally line, that would mean that only three phases of XC infill electrification will be needed (Oxford to Coventry, Birmingham to Derby and Barnt Green to Bristol Parkway with electrification of the fast lines from King's Norton to Barnt Green). Bi-mode would still be needed for XC trains to reach places like Plymouth, Southampton and Dundee.

I don't know what the business case would be like for electrification from Leamington to Birmingham via Solihull, or what effect that would have on the business case for fully electrifying the Birmingham Snow Hill lines.

You forget there is actually 5 infill schemes left - the fourth one being Ely to Leicester via Stamford and the fifth one being Peterborough to Leicester via Grantham which is a diversionary route when the route via Melton Mowbray is not available.
 

swt_passenger

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I think a further announcement regarding decisions for East-West rail was due in July if I remember correctly from the original statement in the autumn statement last year.

That's correct, and confirmed to be expected in a press release only last week:

http://eastwestrail.org.uk/rail-min...all-party-parliamentary-group-in-westminster/

IIRC there was some concern last September that it wasn't shown on NR's lists, but it turned out that is because it is not an NR sponsored project yet. Once DfT/Treasury make a decision to go ahead it would then start appearing in NR's publications.
 
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ainsworth74

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The Pacers atleast have power doors already

If by power doors you mean doors that don't actually properly seal the train from the outside, regularly break causing delays/failures and will not stop a wheelchair from falling through them onto the track, then yes I suppose they have power doors. Though of course saying they have power doors handily ignores the myriad other problems that plague that family of trains.

the size of the rebuild that Chiltern has performed on the Mark 3s is rather extreme, and attempting to implement that on the entire remaining HST fleet would be a nightmare.

What extreme about it? It's basically cutting a slightly different hole in the side, fitting a door mechanism and adjusting the interior layout. I'd suggest changing the FGW TRFBs into TSOs is at least as extensive a conversion especially when many of the HSTs on FGW possibly only have less than ten years of service left in them. Also what would be nightmareish about it? You'd imagine that by the time the Chiltern work is done there would be a well established process for the conversion work making it fairly easy to roll out.

I am expecting this to be eliminated from the programme if the WAG agrees to fund electrification all the way to Swansea, as the line to Plymouth and Paignton will be cleared for IEPs regardless according to the Greater Western ITT I can see the funding being pushed forward to clear to Penzance in order to save the bi-mode IEP.

But you might expect isn't the same as whats happening ;) Until something is announced to the contrary I think the safest course of action for informed speculation is probably to continue assuming HSTs will be used on Plymouth/Penzance services.

Either way I think both programs are equally deserving. Hopefully both will be authorized in the next couple of weeks but even if only one is, be it the Valleys or the MML I'll be very happy.
 

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In the latest Rail that arrived on Saturday it mentioned that DfT have accepted that wiring Walsall to Rugeley has a positive business case & would free up DMUs plus providing an alternative electric route northwards from Birmingham to WCML.

I'm still not holding my breath that either of the schemes I mentioned will get the go ahead this parliament.
 
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