Making up lost time

[tom73]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.
In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination. No attempt to make up lost time these days.

 

[jtuk]

Or less than 17 minutes when they put in an excessively long time between the penultimate and final station to rig punctuality figures

 

[Eccles1983]

No attempt to make up lost time means the driver is driving according to the line speed and rule book.

The spy in the cab ensures it nowadays.

 

[jamesst]

If by floor it you mean break speed limits, harsh braking and generally breaking every rule going then I'll happily drive as I do and arrive late thanks, I quite value my job...

 

[bramling]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.
In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination. No attempt to make up lost time these days.

I’d suggest this isn’t quite true as some drivers will under normal running shut off and coast if they know there is slack in the schedule, which they won’t do if late. However the days of speeding to make up time are well and truly gone.

Really, apart from the coasting mentioned above, if everyone is driving to the same standard and by the book then they should already be driving as fast as safely possible, so there shouldn’t really be any need to change style to make up time.

Generally if you want aggressive driving, your best bet is with the right driver on some of the LU lines which have continuous ATP. On something like the Jubilee or Northern it’s possible to drive like a maniac under normal circumstances without having to worry too much about having an operational incident. However even here you won’t see people rushing things like operating procedures, platform duties and the like.

 

[Eccles1983]

Now before you yearn for the good old days, compare the stats on accidents 1960-1970 to 2009-2019.

I know which era I prefer.

 

[driver9000]

Timetables have recovery padding built into them so making up time can be done without breaking a sweat sometimes. We are in very times from steam days in that Drivers are monitored constantly by the OTDR so the "fun" of the "good old days" simply doesn't happen now. Thanks recovery time I have been 15 minutes late taking a train over and bang on time at my destination without having to push the train any harder than I would had I taken over on time.

 

[ComUtoR]

Back in the 50's and 60's they would also have a quick beer or two before, during and after work. I might pop into the Spoons on my PNB tomorrow...

 

[55018ballymoss]

Another fabulous sweeping generalisation that shows a complete lack of understanding of the work of the staff associated with the operation of the services.

 

[yorkie]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.
In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination. No attempt to make up lost time these days.

Not always true.

For example I believe TPE drivers are instructed to coast where practicable if on time, but might not do so if running late and it would save time to apply more power. The difference is that these days rules and speed limits won't be broken if late, which is only sensible.

Also some schedules have pathing time due to catching up slower trains; if running late they will catch up with the stopper later, so there can be opportunities to make up time then too.

Some people have posted examples of CrossCountry trains recovering over 20 minutes of delay before.

 

[Spartacus]

Also in steam days the timetable was built more around 'average' performance, there being a lot of variation in how a particular loco can perform compared to the rest of it's class, by quite a big margin with steam locos, lesser with diesel and electric, and lesser still with multiple units.

 

[Ianno87]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.
In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination. No attempt to make up lost time these days.

Perhaps running times are carefully deduced to accurately reflect actual train performance capability, based on thousands and thousands of pieces of train running data, these days? Just a thought...

 

[Esker-pades]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.

The "good old days". Here we go.

In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination.

That assumption is simply incorrect. Trains can make up time, and often do so. For example, I started a thread when the 16:00 Wick to Inverness made up 9 minutes for a timetable which both drivers and guards describe as "tight". Now, obviously there will be numerous examples of trains which don't make up time. That can be down to anything from there not being slack in the timetable, there being other trains in front meaning that making up time is not possible etc. The railway is much more congested than it was in the 50s and 60s, so if a train is a bit late, it can easily miss its path and get held up.

No attempt to make up lost time these days.

What evidence do you have for that? Just because trains don't make up time (which is not true in itself) doesn't mean the effort isn't there. Drivers are more tightly controlled than before (as has been detailed), which I am glad of. I would rather be 17 minutes late into Leeds than dead because the driver was speeding and derailed. (Insert your own joke about how dying may be better than going to Leeds.)

Drivers are known to vary their driving style when late (within the rules, obviously) in order to try to make up time.*

*Actual train drivers will confirm or deny this.


Then, look at it from the other perspective:

My train made up 17 minutes, so why can't my journey time be reduced by 17 minutes in the normal timetable?

We create timetables that generally don't have massive amounts of slack in them so that on-time trains aren't hanging around. That isn't a bad thing.

 

[tsr]

It does seem now that there is almost too little emphasis in certain quarters on the competency of a driver to maintain a reasonable speed between stations. I'm aware of several incidents in the last few months of trains losing 1 or 2 minutes and thereby causing ridiculous knock-on delays when they hit a busy part of the network, and when investigated, there is no real reason (signals, weather, speed restrictions, wheelslip/slide, etc.) to have had the delay. At the extreme end, I recall being on a train from East Grinstead a few years ago which lost in the region of 20 minutes (on a sub-60 minute journey) for no definable reason other than slow driving. I politely asked the driver on arrival, they looked at their watch - and went "oh *!?*, sorry mate, no idea how that happened..." - and I think that was entirely genuine! Weirdly, these are probably the same drivers who, when on a very slack schedule on a late-night DOO service, don't look at their watches and leave everywhere early...

I am well aware that rushing and trying to beat the clock can cause operational incidents, and I am also aware of the implications a train running overspeed can have on the safety of the line - and a driver's career. And I've been on a number of trains that have come to a screeching halt with a TPWS activation, with the subsequent responsibility of trying to work out how to tell all the passengers why they're running late, in a world where the very phrase "operational incident" simply no longer works very well. But the efficiency of certain drivers is certainly open to challenge.

Luckily, an equal or greater number of drivers are very good at clawing back a few seconds here and there. So long as they don't put anyone at risk, I don't mind - quite the opposite. Even if it's only 15 seconds between each station, it can let you cross the next major junction in the right order, or allow someone to make a cross-platform connection, and that's worth its weight in gold.

And as for the slow drivers, there are a few things which are done. There are Driver Advisory Systems (DAS) being installed, or already present, on many trains. The accuracy and usefulness of these vary, but what many do have is the ability to display a schedule and how the driver is progressing against it. Just the difference of the schedule card being illuminated in an official position amongst all the other controls could be what is needed, rather than being stuck on the cab noticeboard, up to one side beside the window (as it is on many multiple units). And with the increase in focus on non-technical skills, crew of all descriptions may be able to work out how they can work more efficiently with each other and with the processes in place, without having to feel like a machine.

 

[daikilo]

Perhaps running times are carefully deduced to accurately reflect actual train performance capability, based on thousands and thousands of pieces of train running data, these days? Just a thought...

Back in my time it was by computer simulation ... I am often surprised by the predictions of catch-up on NRE for late running trains, its like nothing else is running and certainly does not simulate say an engine out!

 

[Esker-pades]

Back in my time it was by computer simulation ... I am often surprised by the predictions of catch-up on NRE for late running trains, its like nothing else is running and certainly does not simulate say an engine out!

NRE is fantastically optimistic. 9 minutes late leaving Cannon Street? Don't worry, it'll be on time by Eltham. Yeah, no chance mate. Simultaneous departure times from St Johns and Lewisham are not a thing.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was on a Paddington to Swansea the other week that made up a 18 minutes late start to RT by Newport, and made all it’s booked calls...

 

[DarloRich]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.
In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination. No attempt to make up lost time these days.

Is this a question or a statement? If the later it is an incorrect statement.

 

[Mugby]

Remember what Richard Branson said publicly when he first got the West Coast franchise:

"I'm sure the drivers would go a little faster if we give them the appropriate incentive" (i.e. more money!)

 

[dk1]

I do my upmost to make up time as & whenever possible. It's one of the few incentives left I find now even if modern technology has spoiled much of the chances we had.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do my upmost to make up time as & whenever possible. It's one of the few incentives left I find now even if modern technology has spoiled much of the chances we had.

Good on you, and almost all drivers are the same.

There are of course the occasional drivers who decide to coast for miles well under the permitted speed on Greens when a few minutes down, but I’m sure they have their reasons! (Or a slow watch).

 

[dk1]

Good on you, and almost all drivers are the same.

There are of course the occasional drivers who decide to coast for miles well under the permitted speed on Greens when a few minutes down, but I’m sure they have their reasons! (Or a slow watch).

Oh that crazes me. I know some who if passing through a TSR with a station within a couple of miles take no further power too. What the heck is that all about? Get a decent guard too & it's very rewarding how much time can be clawed back.

 

[DaveTM]

My train operating company's Professional Driver's Policy (PDP) document is quite specific about our priorities: (1) Safety, (2) Timeliness, (3) eco-driving. In other words you drive safely giving yourself lots and lots of leaway when braking, but you accelerate at max power leaving stations, until you judge it is ok to coast so as to arrive at the next station on time.
I am in a lower link, mostly driving stopping services. I don't often get up to full line speed. So if I am on time,
(a) I take notch 2 until 5mph, notch 3 until 10mph and then full power until my personal coasting mark (a bush or a dead badger skeleton etc), then
(b) I then coast until my braking point, and then
(c) there I use a mixture of step 1 brake and a bit of step 2 brake until I stop (using what I call "checkpoints" to monitor my speed as I slow down (e.g. 43 mph over /that/ bridge in step 1 means I'll hit the 4 car stop mark perfectly)).
If I am late
(a) I take notches 3 and 4 a little earlier (but not notch 3 or 4 from standing because I don't want old biddies and drunks to fall over)
(b) I keep the power open longer to accelerate to a higher speed before coasting for a *shorter*/ time.
(c) I then brake a little *earlier* so that I hit my checkpoints at exactly the same speed as I normally would (safety is top priority).
There is actually not a lot of scope for a driver to make up time. That is the job of the timetable planner who MUST build in a little slack in the timetable.
However......
Once I get to my station I open my doors. If I am DOO (Driver Only Operation), I wait a sensible period like 20 seconds and then close my doors. If I have a conductor then he should wait 20 seconds or so and then close the doors. Be aware that the profit margin of TOCs only depends on their trains running on time, not on their doors being open long enough for an able bodied human to use them. My TOC's PDP certainly does not say how long a dwell time should be. So I or my conductor could theoretically save 20 seconds by closing the doors as soon as they have opened. I think most drivers and conductors have enough pride not to do this, but the temptation is there when you are on your home going train at the end of a shift and you know that the management who have pissed you off will not tell you off for making up lost time even if passengers are inconvenienced!

 

[whhistle]

No attempt to make up lost time these days.

Is this a statement or question?

Drivers are bound by speed limits.
Sure, they can drive a little harsher, brake a little harsher but that alone won't make up much time.

If they get a good run of greens, are put in front of other trains (sometimes making them a few minutes late), they can make up time.

 

[Pyromaniac]

Possibly some form of environmental credentials on driving styles now too.

I cannot find the video on YouTube at the moment, but remember watching a British Rail era journey between Leigh-on-Sea and Chalkwell stations that showed two differing driving styles:
1. Full power leaving Leigh and applying the brakes into Chalkwell.
2. Full power leaving Leigh to a defined coasting point (trackside marker) and then applying the brakes into Chalkwell.

Driving style 1 gained a few seconds (not more than 15 I believe) so would not have impacted on schedules, therefore driving style 2 seems more beneficial.

 

[DanDaDriver]

Back in the 1950's and 60's, if a train had been delayed en route, the driver would ask his fireman to shovel some more coal on the fire and he'd floor it until his train was back on time.
In this 21st Century, if a train leaves the origin station 17 minutes late, it will be 17 minutes if not more late at its destination. No attempt to make up lost time these days.

Well they didn’t have speedos, TPWS Or OTMR for a start.

There’s not much you can do as a driver to recover time unless it’s written into your timings.

To be honest Station staff and guards have more control as a quicker station stop when you’re running late will save you time.

You can leave your braking later, but if you trip a TPWS then that’s you on a “development,” plan for the next few years for the sake of a few seconds.

If you’re running under restrictive aspects then you slow down. If the signaller wants you to fly about then they can give you greens. As soon as you see those yellows then it’s the signallers time not yours.

If you’re taking full power up to a single yellow you’re either a suburban driver or an idiot.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Some people have posted examples of CrossCountry trains recovering over 20 minutes of delay before.

Indeed! I was once on the XC Penzance to Manchester (I travelled Hayle to Stoke) We were 47 late off Hayle, but only 9 late at Stoke!

 

[Mintona]

Normally find if you’re running late you get a slower train out in front of you anyway so it’s difficult. If I leave Reading more than three minutes late I can pretty much guarantee I’m going to be behind a Turbo from Bedwyn, something that’s stopping at Slough, or held at Airport Junction for a Heathrow Express to go first. So it’s hard to make up the time.

Heading to Bristol can often be late at Reading/Didcot and right time at Bath. Especially with the 800s and the superior acceleration.

 

[LeeLivery]

Early 2000s, I remember jumping onto a HST at Wellingborough. I'm sure we were slightly over 10 minutes late upon departure. We arrived into London 1 minute early. How things have changed...

 

[DanDaDriver]

Early 2000s, I remember jumping onto a HST at Wellingborough. I'm sure we were slightly over 10 minutes late upon departure. We arrived into London 1 minute early. How things have changed...

You probably weren’t stuck behind a Thameslink.

It’s still perfectly possible for the same thing to happen today, you could be ten late off Bedford and then five minutes waiting your booked platform time outside Pancras.

It’s how the timetable is written.