Making up lost time

[Wychwood93]

Maybe Network Rail should just turn the third rail up to 900V for a few hours in areas where there's been some disruption.

That'll work fine, right?

Had the PSU (power supply upgrade) on the former Southern region been done to the capabilities of current stock - 37x out east and 'my' own 444 and 450 then no boost to 900v would have been required at all. All of those run under reduced power (amps) depending on train formation. A 444 is 2000kw as built - by my calculations this then scales down to 1200kw to fall within the traction current index (a double 444 the same as a 4-REP). The proposed increase to 2000 amps yields a touch more power/weight for a 444 - 8.01 hp/ton comp to 6.41 when fully loaded. An 8-car REP would be 9.72 - at the original current. The 444s nippier off the mark - modern traction stuff.

 

[Three-Nine]

Notable it's necessary to go to the other side of the world half a generation ago to find an example of such an accident. From the Bad Old Days of BR etc I can't recall a single accident where making up time was even a factor ...

That maybe so, but that one incident killed over a hundred people, including the train driver, and injured over five hundred more passengers. Which suggests that a degree of caution when suggesting making up time by exceeding speed limits is not necessarily a bad thing.

Edit: Before someone else points it out, there were obviously some differences in the employment culture, configuration of the line and passenger loading which impacted the severity of the incident.

 

[Esker-pades]

Notable it's necessary to go to the other side of the world half a generation ago to find an example of such an accident. From the Bad Old Days of BR etc I can't recall a single accident where making up time was even a factor ...

Notable that other members have come up with UK incidents from the BR era.
(Morpeth '69, Nuneaton '75 etc.)

 

[Ken H]

Notable that other members have come up with UK incidents from the BR era.
(Morpeth '69, Nuneaton '75 etc.)

Those 2 accidents it was thought the driver missed the boards warning of a TSR. That brought in new rules about AWS magnets for TSR warning boards.
And brought to light problems with ensuring TSR warning boards were properly lit. This is before train headlights were generally fitted.

 

[Esker-pades]

Those 2 accidents it was thought the driver missed the boards warning of a TSR. That brought in new rules about AWS magnets for TSR warning boards.
And brought to light problems with ensuring TSR warning boards were properly lit. This is before train headlights were generally fitted.

My sources. As I'm not great on railway history, you'll have to continue with the original posters. Apologies.

For a start, I give you Nuneaton, 1975. Driver missed the unlit board because he was trying to work out why he was late. 6 dead.

Eltham well hall - 1976. 6 dead 100+ injured
Morpeth 1976- 6 dead 100+ injured.
Nuneaton 1975 - 6 dead 70+ injured.
Paddington 1984 6 injured


All accidents due to excess speed.

Making up time is an risk that only the foolish or foolhardy attempt nowadays. There is little a driver can actually do to make up time - in practice they should be driving as fast as possible anyway.

Late braking is one way of making a few seconds up. But no manager worth their salt is going to promote it as it's pointless.

Morpeth 1969, 6 dead and 21 injured. Driver worried about a letter he had had about a previous late running.

 

[big all]

morpeth and new eltham wouldnt happen now as this was in an era where trains had no headlights and trains where driven in the dark fully by route knowlege and speeds where denoted by painted cutouts
morpeth indeed caused speeds to have magnets and lit warning boards fitted

 

[Ken H]

I have driven my car with a passenger watching the GPS on her phone. The difference between the speed on my speedo and the GPS was as much as 2mph when doing 30. Also those things by the road that flash up your speed bear that out. Done that quite a few times and its consistent.

So are train speedos accurate. if a driver has a speedo that reads 2mph wrong that could affect his timekeeping. Just an idea.

 

[Ken H]

morpeth and new eltham wouldnt happen now as this was in an era where trains had no headlights and trains where driven in the dark fully by route knowlege and speeds where denoted by painted cutouts
morpeth indeed caused speeds to have magnets and lit warning boards fitted

then there were the old LNER speed restriction signs - cut out numbers on a stick. Replacing those with road type reflective speed restriction signs must have made a huge difference.

some pix here
http://www.railsigns.uk/photos/p_psr1/p_psr1.html

 

[Bald Rick]

A question for drivers - do you drive to WTT or GBTT?

I was on a train yesterday that coasted seemingly unnecessarily to my station, where it arrived 1 minute late and left 1 minute late. Or so I thought. It was RT by WTT though.

 

[ComUtoR]

WTT

My schedule card only has WTT times.

 

[Taunton]

These examples are of overspeeding, not making up lost time. There's missing PW boards, non-concentration, and route unfamiliarity in there. At Eltham the driver was drunk (stated in the report).

 

[ComUtoR]

People speed; to make up time.
Pressure to keep to time; causes incidents.
Constantly monitoring your schedule; causes distractions; causes incidents.

And you don't need to kill people or have major accidents to see the result of Drivers 'making up time'

 

[DanDaDriver]

It’s also worth remembering how (relatively) new speedos are on trains.

Nowadays you can’t take one off the Depot without a working Speedo and if it fails in service then you go at a safe speed where you are sure you’re under the limit (ie: very slow) to get it out of service.

A lot of the old BR boys have stories of driving with no working Speedo, and it wasn’t considered a big deal

 

[jfollows]

A lot of the old BR boys have stories of driving with no working Speedo, and it wasn’t considered a big deal

Or even didn't have a speedo in the first place, for example the MSW DC electric units which worked Manchester-Hadfield from 1954 to the end of 1981 (if my memory serves correctly from travelling in the brake van adjacent to the driving cab).

 

[ComUtoR]

A lot of the old BR boys have stories of driving with no working Speedo, and it wasn’t considered a big deal

I've done it a couple of times. It's freaky at first but your other skills kick in and you relax and reaize how simple it can be; when you take a second and think about it.

 

[big all]

It’s also worth remembering how (relatively) new speedos are on trains.

Nowadays you can’t take one off the Depot without a working Speedo and if it fails in service then you go at a safe speed where you are sure you’re under the limit (ie: very slow) to get it out of service.

A lot of the old BR boys have stories of driving with no working Speedo, and it wasn’t considered a big deal

anything suburban built before around 1950 wouldnt have a speedo certainly on the southern dont know about anywhere else it was actually no big deal as you get to know with in about maybe +/-2mph at 20 and +/-5mph at 70
indeed it wasnt till around 1980 that speedos where retro fitted to some stock but not subs

 

[bramling]

These examples are of overspeeding, not making up lost time. There's missing PW boards, non-concentration, and route unfamiliarity in there. At Eltham the driver was drunk (stated in the report).

In the case of Eltham (Well Hall) one can only really speculate as to the root cause as the driver was killed. Whilst it’s highly probable that drink played a part, we’ll never know for sure.

Some other accidents where excess speed was the immediate cause - Salisbury, Grantham and Sutton Coldfield. Again in all three cases we’ll never know for sure. Grantham in particular has always remained a complete mystery.

 

[Ken H]

In the case of Eltham (Well Hall) one can only really speculate as to the root cause as the driver was killed. Whilst it’s highly probable that drink played a part, we’ll never know for sure.

Some other accidents where excess speed was the immediate cause - Salisbury, Grantham and Sutton Coldfield. Again in all three cases we’ll never know for sure. Grantham in particular has always remained a complete mystery.

The inspector wondered if the driver thought he was somewhere else. But he was experienced & knew the road well. He was seen at the controls looking out by the signalman. I think its a reasonable assumption to make, therefore, that Grantham wasnt speeding per se. AWS would have probably prevented that one.

edit:
grantham accident report
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_Grantham1906.pdf

you have to horizontal scroll to find the document.

 

[al78]

I have driven my car with a passenger watching the GPS on her phone. The difference between the speed on my speedo and the GPS was as much as 2mph when doing 30. Also those things by the road that flash up your speed bear that out. Done that quite a few times and its consistent.

So are train speedos accurate. if a driver has a speedo that reads 2mph wrong that could affect his timekeeping. Just an idea.

It is the same with the speedio on my car and the sat nav, the sat nav speed can be up to about 4 mph lower. Car speedos are allowed to over-read but not under-read. I have heard the over-read can be up to 10%, which leads to people on driving themed newsgroups claim you can do up to 77 mph on a motorway and not get done for speeding (spot the statistical error).

 

[yorkie]

My train (1n34 2100 Kings Cross - Newcastle) did made up lost time... until the signallers at York ROC routed an empty coaching stock train (going in the opposite direction) across the junction in front of us, then changed their minds and put its signal back to red, so we were at a stand at Colton Junction for several minutes. We then got the green signal and went ahead of it.

Very odd, and I've not known anything like that happen at Colton Junction before.

 

[DanDaDriver]

My train (1n34 2100 Kings Cross - Newcastle) did made up lost time... until the signallers at York ROC routed an empty coaching stock train (going in the opposite direction) across the junction in front of us, then changed their minds and put its signal back to red, so we were at a stand at Colton Junction for several minutes. We then got the green signal and went ahead of it.

Very odd, and I've not known anything like that happen at Colton Junction before.

Quite possibly they overrode ARS or whichever version they have in York.

 

[ComUtoR]

then there were the old LNER speed restriction signs - cut out numbers on a stick.

We had a few of these installed a couple of years back as a trial to see if they were better.

 

[GB]

While not due to "making up time" the incident on the ECML in 2015 where a passenger train took a junction at more than double the permitted speed demonstrates that AWS and TPWS at such sites are not infallible.

 

[Mathew S]

While not due to "making up time" the incident on the ECML in 2015 where a passenger train took a junction at more than double the permitted speed demonstrates that AWS and TPWS at such sites are not infallible.

Nothing that involves human beings can ever be infallible.

 

[dctraindriver]

If I’m late I’m late. There’s padding in the timetable to make up some time. I couldn’t give a rats arse if my name is in the log for a delay.

As for linespeed I do about 5 mph below max linespeed. Where I am there’s so much traffic you don’t need to do the max as you’ll hit the red somewhere along the journey.

My priority is getting punters to their destination safely.

A minority of my colleagues at my depot like to say how great they are as they made up 5 mins by the time they terminated, however the padding allowed that lol.

Keep it as stress free as you can, worrying about keeping to time is a foolhardy way of putting undue pressure on your head. No driver has ever been sacked for going too slow.....where as........

 

[big all]

to be honest i used to enjoy the challenge off making up time
yes its often frustrated loosing 5 or 6 mins you have just worked hard to get back but that happens
about the best i managed was on something like the 11.34 stopper to reading possibly around 1990 with a hampshire or oxted thumper

ask the guard to find out where the passengers are going as we get sorted at redhill leaving at 1154-55
at reigate the gaurd says no deepdene so betchworth stop lots off noise approaching deepdene at about 25mph and onward non stop to dorking town from then on every station had passengers

guildford was 3mins standing so 2.5 mins pulled back there manage reading 1 min early
and took great joy when the 4b staff said i thought you where over 20 mins late ---
and i said i was

 

[Cavan]

I thought Eltham was thought highly likely due to alcohol consumed over the whole of the drivers day? I think there was a post mortem suggestion he was drinking at the controls too?

The alcohol taken could of course confused the driver re location and speeds. I seem to remember when I read the report the secondman had also had a good amount to drink.

 

[Deepgreen]

Oh that crazes me. I know some who if passing through a TSR with a station within a couple of miles take no further power too. What the heck is that all about? Get a decent guard too & it's very rewarding how much time can be clawed back.

I agree with that! Another loss-amassing behaviour is slow reaction to signals clearing. I've been on numerous trains where I've seen the signal clear but with no movement for 10-20 seconds! I was on a North Downs train the other day where the guard chose to finish his ticket transaction (with a passenger who was remaining on the train) before coming back to the rear cab to allow the train to leave - over a minute lost.

 

[bramling]

I thought Eltham was thought highly likely due to alcohol consumed over the whole of the drivers day? I think there was a post mortem suggestion he was drinking at the controls too?

The alcohol taken could of course confused the driver re location and speeds. I seem to remember when I read the report the secondman had also had a good amount to drink.

It’s possible, highly probable in fact, that alcohol was a factor - but like many accidents where the key players were killed we can never know for sure what happened.

Thankfully the culture towards alcohol (and drugs) is a lot stricter today. However much depends on the professionalism of staff - even today it’s not completely unheard of for staff to fail D&A tests or take a chance booking on having been drinking. Very rare, but not completely unheard of. Nowadays not only is the railway policy zero-tolerance, but it’s also a criminal offence - not only will it be P45 time, but may also involve a trip to a police station if the person gets as far as touching a train.

 

[Essexman]

A couple of years ago I was having lunch in a GWR Pullman as we travelled over the Berks & Hants Line towards the West Country. The ride was less smooth than usual and the stewards serving were struggling a bit with the swaying train. We were late and one told us that the driver was doing his best to make up time. I’m sure he / she wouldn’t have been speeding but maybe they usually take the curves a bit below line speed and brake more gently and the driver was going a bit harder this time as we were late.