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Male violence against women in the UK

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backontrack

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I'm going to try and breach this subject as tastefully and as diplomatically as I can. This is an overwhelmingly male forum; one of the most homogenously male on the entire web.

To be honest, I'm surprised it's taken this long for a thread to arise. The vigil at Clapham Common for Sarah Everard - found dead in Kent after being abducted and murdered by a member of the London Metropolitan Police - has been forcefully shut down by Lambeth Police.

It is absolutely shocking what they have done. I'm not going to mince my words here: if some users on here can label the government's coronavirus response as being an authoritarian conspiracy, then surely we can describe tonight's events the same way. There is something, to my mind, so shockingly predictable about how it all was handled - with police officers waiting until after dark to manhandle women. Their badges weren't even visible. This was premeditated.

Our thoughts should be directed at the need for a social sea change in the UK. I've heard so much from friends, from women I don't know, across the nation, on Instagram and Twitter and in the news and in articles and opinion pieces and on TV shows - and they all describe their experiences.

We men can go out at night without being particularly worried. Sure, there's a few doggy alleyways we'll steer clear of; don't want to be mugged after all.

But we don't have to wear bright clothing. We don't have to text our mates before and after. We don't have to nervously plan our route before hand, we don't need to walk quickly, we don't need to make sure there's shops on the way we can duck into, we don't need to hold our keys clenched tightly in our hands.

Our experiences are not the same.

Yes, it's not all men. But it's all women.

All women live without being able to enjoy some of the basic freedoms that men do.
And I've barely scratched the surface.

97% of YOUNG women (18-24) in the UK have been sexually harassed, according to UN Women.

118 women and girls have been murdered by men in the past year.

As men, we need to do better; in our mindset, in our attitude, in the way we communicate with each other. Women need to be able to walk the streets unthreatened. It's on men to use our platforms to pressure government to act on the issue (without just increasing police numbers - which does nothing when, in the case of Sarah Everard, the suspect is literally a police offer).

More importantly, we need to talk to each other.

Check out this video of Scottish comedian Daniel Sloss - and please share it.


It's on men to eradicate male violence against women. You may well know someone who did it. Statistically, it's pretty likely.

I'm sick of the narrative because I'm sick of having to worry about my sister or my friends. We need to change it by getting involved. Rather than washing your hands of this, or distancing yourself from it, hold your mates to account.

(Bonus points for the first person to use 'woke' in the replies.)
 
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YorkshireBear

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I completely agree with most of what you say, and it is on all of us to challenge our friends and family on these issues.

But there is some stuff that is put out there I don't. Apparently it's my morale duty as a man to intervene if I see five guys harassing a woman? My question to that is, what would you like me to do that doesn't end in me getting battered or putting my life in danger? As has almost happened before if it wasn't for some quick thinking from a passing taxi driver.

And some of the messaging going out there isn't going to win them any friends. Ranting on about how all men are terrible isn't going to engage men in the conversation it needs to be more constructive. There are good men out there who will be put off by that.

I also don't believe the police waited till after dark to manhandle women....

However agree with vast majority of what you say like I say. Good to have a thread on it.
 

backontrack

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Ranting on about how all men are terrible
I literally still included the phrase "not all men".

In general, thanks - I appreciate what you're saying. Personally I'd try to intervene, but then I won the 200m at school. There's got to be some way of doing it, though.
 

ABB125

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97% of YOUNG women (18-24) in the UK have been sexually assaulted, according to UN Women.
97% of young women have been sexually harassed. Not quite the same thing, but still doesn't make it OK
118 women and girls have been murdered by men in the past year.
And how many men were killed by men last year? Rather more: based on the figures is this BBC article (well worth reading), I estimate it to be around 500 men killed by men. So you're more likely to be murdered if you're male. Again, that doesn't mean 118 female murders is OK, but it puts a perspective on that number.
It's on men to eradicate male violence against women. You may well know someone who did it. Statistically, it's pretty likely.
I agree. However I don't know anyone who has acted violently towards women.
I'm sick of the narrative because I'm sick of having to worry about my sister or my friends. We need to change it by getting involved. Rather than washing your hands of this, or distancing yourself from it, hold your mates to account.
I would if I was aware of anything which needed to be held to account.
(Bonus points for the first person to use 'woke' in the replies.)
I woke up this morning to see some news reports about Sarah Everard.
 

AlterEgo

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Agree with the gist of what’s been said, although I’d gently correct the stat - 97% of women had been sexually harassed, not sexually *assaulted*.


As with most of the police’s cockups in this country, it’s more incompetence than conspiracy. They’re just not good at policing - they’re short sighted and the leadership put their officers in a very difficult position especially with their refusal to engage with the organisers. Other protests have been facilitated during COVID.
 

backontrack

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And how many men were killed by men last year? Rather more: based on the figures is this BBC article (well worth reading), I estimate it to be around 500 men killed by men. So you're more likely to be murdered if you're male. Again, that doesn't mean 118 female murders is OK, but it puts a perspective on that number.
Ah! so you agree men are the problem and that they shouldn't be murdering other people? Good, I'm glad.

Agree with the gist of what’s been said, although I’d gently correct the stat - 97% of women had been sexually harassed, not sexually *assaulted*.
Of course, it is a different thing and I'm just a bit knackered at the moment so it slipped through. Cheers.
 

YorkshireBear

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I literally still included the phrase "not all men".

In general, thanks - I appreciate what you're saying. Personally I'd try to intervene, but then I won the 200m at school. There's got to be some way of doing it, though.
That particular comment wasn't aimed at you, sorry if that wasn't clear.
 

yorkie

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....We men can go out at night without being particularly worried. Sure, there's a few doggy alleyways we'll steer clear of; don't want to be mugged after all....
Actually, you are mistaken.

In general, men are more likely to be victims of violence such as assault.

It is estimated that about 1.3% of women were victims of violent crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 2% of men.

You are correct that the problem is overwhelmingly caused by men; from the same article:
More than nine out of 10 killers were men.
But it's not true to say that women are more likely to be victims; it would however be absolutely true to say that woman are more likely to be sexually assaulted, but the overall risk of violent assault, of all types, is actually greater for men, than women.

I do not think that the majority of men, who would never commit such an act, should be demonised but absolutely more should be done to raise awareness and to deal with the culprits. Unfortunately many of the perpetuators get away with very lenient sentences, which is disgraceful.

For example I created a few years ago about a notorious York thug; the thread can be found here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/violent-york-thug-is-locked-up-but-not-for-very-long.83951/ and the reason I created it is because I know some of the thugs victims personally, so it really hit home for me.

I do not ever envisage any prospect of thugs like that getting appropriate sentences, sadly. I hope I am proven wrong. When I have called for appropriate sentencing, some people disagree with me, saying that the perpetrators should be treated leniently.
 

DarloRich

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It is absolutely shocking what they have done. I'm not going to mince my words here: if some users on here can label the government's coronavirus response as being an authoritarian conspiracy, then surely we can describe tonight's events the same way. There is something, to my mind, so shockingly predictable about how it all was handled - with police officers waiting until after dark to manhandle women. Their badges weren't even visible. This was premeditated.

It looked like normal police tactics to me. They handled it completely wrongly but more from a PR standpoint than anything else. I mean one of their own is under arrest for the abduction and murder of a young woman! It hardly looks good.

EDIT - I also think we need to take the heat out of the messaging around this issue. It risks being lost by demonising ( inadvertently?) all men and losing any chance of change or in challenging bad behaviour. Lets see what the male populist press commentators have to say tomorrow. That is the key to changing opinion.
 

AlterEgo

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Attacks against women are especially visceral because they touch on the unspoken duty of men to speak up for and protect women, who are, as a class of people, especially vulnerable to make violence.

I’m fairly worldly and don’t flinch at most of the news, but the Everard case disgusts me more than I expected, not least that it was a police officer arrested over the kidnap and murder.

The Met had a number of options open to it tonight, and it chose the most short sighted one as it so often does. The force is so penned in by criticism from all sides that it doesn’t have a politically acceptable route “out” - a way of apologising without losing face or authority. This is the most significant problem with policing, at least in London.
 

21C101

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It is outrageous to tell people to lock their doors when they go out. It is even more outrageous to criticise people who don't and it is unspeakable discrimination to refuse to pay out on insurance if burglars enter an unlocked door.

Nobody should have to be so frightened of burglars that they have to lock their doors.

Apparently "It's on men to eradicate male violence against women"

Swap "men" for a group of people with a particular characteristic and "women" for a group of people perceived as victims of the former, to put this in perspective. I don't recommend publishing it though if you have any sense of self preservation. So why is it acceptable to stereotype men in this way because of the criminal actions of a tiny minority of men?
 
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Ashley Hill

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It's often forgotten that domestic abuse in (and outside) the home can also be carried out against the male. Only in recent years has this been recognised by supporting charities and support groups.
 

GB

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It is outrageous to tell people to lock their doors when they go out. It is even more outrageous to criticise people who don't and it is unspeakable discrimination to refuse to pay out on insurance if burglars enter an unlocked door.

Nobody should have to be so frightened of burglars that they have to lock their doors.

Apparently "It's on men to eradicate male violence against women"

Swap "men" for a group of people with a particular characteristic and "women" for a group of people perceived as victims of the former, to put this in perspective. I don't recommend publishing it though if you have any sense of self preservation. So why is it acceptable to stereotype men in this way because of the criminal actions of a tiny minority of men?
Fully agree and well said. While what happened is horrible and I hope whoever is responsible serves a very very long sentence, this “as men” or “we men” rhetoric (as well as what that stupid women said about 6pm curfew) I find highly insulting and offensive if I’m honest.
 

21C101

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What has the head of the Met Cressida Dick said of her forces actions?
To be fair the primary fault lies with the politicians who have criminalised such peaceful protest.

However the Met has been very selective over the last year or so in it's treatment of protestors. Compare the way, for example, extinction rebellion were treated with the treatment of anti lockdown protestors. Once you let the principle of everybody being equal before the law get watered down then it comes and bites you on the backside sooner or later.

I also suspect that if the victim had been a single mother in her 30's wandering around New Addington at night, rather than an upper middle class marketing executive, we would not have seen this outpouring. Similarly if a single mother from New Addington had gone on TV and said her in laws treatment of her had left her suicidal, her children would be on the social services at risk register by now.

There is a huge iceberg like class issue here lurking below the surface that is barely being discussed.

Also, among all the crticism of the met there seems to be no acknowledgement of their excellent work in capturing the apparent perpetrator so quickly. It was many years, and many more deaths before killers like the Yorkshire Ripper were caught.
 

duncanp

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Ah! so you agree men are the problem and that they shouldn't be murdering other people? Good, I'm glad.

It is a very loaded statement to say that "..men are the problem...".

No-one should be murdering anyone, whoever they are.

This newspaper article says how it is wrong that the death of Sarah Everard has been hijacked by people who hate men.


As the mother myself of a beautiful, vibrant young girl on the cusp of womanhood, Sarah Everard’s abduction and killing cuts me to the quick. I look at photos of her big, clear eyes, see that hopeful, happy smile, and my heart breaks.

On this, Mothering Sunday, Sarah is all our daughters, and her family’s loss an agony we all share.

The fact that the person charged with her murder is a Metropolitan Police officer makes it so much more shocking. If it transpires that the people responsible for protecting the public can’t be trusted, then who can?

Understandable, then, that so many have wanted to come together, like the Duchess of Cambridge, to share their distress and remember Sarah.

Also to share their own stories of late-night fear on the streets. All perfectly normal responses to a horrible tragedy.

But one thing I do object to – indeed, I find distasteful and disrespectful – is why some have sought to turn the tragedy to their political advantage. For them, it is part of a culture war against so-called ‘toxic masculinity’ and men in general.


Typical was Green Party peer Baroness Jones who suggested that the best way to prevent violence against women is for a 6pm curfew for men. She subsequently claimed she hadn’t been serious – but was highlighting the danger of ‘victim-blaming’. But that was too late.

Not only is Parliament, where she made the comment, not a place for such loose words but in an age of social media, many are apt to jump on such a bandwagon.

Soon after, the hashtag ‘curfewformen’ began trending on Twitter, with various rival factions trading insults in the usual unedifying way.

All the while 33-year-old Sarah’s body was lying undiscovered in woodland in Kent.

Then, last night, there was something very wrong about male police officers manhandling distressed women at Sarah’s vigil. It can’t be the best look for the Metropolitan Police right now.

But the fact is her killing and her family’s deep personal tragedy have been turned into a public slanging match. There is no doubt in my mind that our streets are not as safe as they should be for women – of all ages.

Even I have felt this. Once, quite recently, a man accosted me as I was walking my dogs late at night with a variety of unseemly suggestions. As a young woman in my 20s, I was attacked at knifepoint in Herne Hill, South London. Thankfully a neighbour (a man, as it happens) intervened.

On a separate occasion, a man broke into my bedroom and stood at the end of the bed.

Once again, I was very lucky: my flatmate chose that exact moment to come home and the intruder bolted out the front door.

My daughter tells me that not a day goes by that someone doesn’t harass her on the London Tube or on the way home from school. Every time she leaves the house, I worry for her safety. But the notion that any one man’s despicable actions should in some way define the entire male sex is patently absurd.

It’s the same as suggesting that just because a tiny minority of Islamists hold extremist views, then all Muslims are capable of committing acts of terror.

To hold such beliefs is the height of prejudice, and calculated to incite hatred against innocent people – in this case the millions of good, kind men who would never even contemplate doing anything violent to a woman.

The truth is, the only person who matters here is Sarah Everard. A young woman who, one night, met a dreadful evil on her way home.

A woman whose life was about so much more than her death. And who deserves better than to have her memory hijacked in such a callous and opportunistic way.
 

westv

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Considering the vast majority of women killed are victims of their own partners perhaps a greater emphasis on domestic violence may help?
 

alex397

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The threat to women walking the streets at night as awful, and there have been a number of near misses in my local area, which happen frequently. Men following women, flashers, gropers, abusive comments, and then the severe sexual assaults. Stories of this in my local area are so frequent, and those are just the ones that are actually reported. Most women I know have a story about this sort of thing, and have to take precautions that men often don’t have to think about.
Police response is often poor, and of course CCTV never works or produces an image that could not be any more pixelated.

I am hearing a lot of comment about how men have nothing to fear, or nothing to worry about when walking around alone, which is of course not true and are really not helpful comments.
What is true, is that women are far more likely to be sexually harassed or assaulted when just walking home minding their own business, and that is shocking really. Men are attacked too (and sexually assaulted too), but of course it’s usually men who do that to men as well.

I’m surprised by the actions of the police yesterday evening. Actually, I would say shocked. Obviously we shouldn’t be having mass gatherings right now, and I do understand why the police did not allow it to go ahead. However, it went ahead anyway and quite understandably as the anger is huge. At that moment, the police should have just stepped back and observed. The images seen last night will not do the Met’s reputation any good, especially when it comes to trust in reporting sexual offences!
 
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AlterEgo

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Swap "men" for a group of people with a particular characteristic and "women" for a group of people perceived as victims of the former, to put this in perspective. I don't recommend publishing it though if you have any sense of self preservation. So why is it acceptable to stereotype men in this way because of the criminal actions of a tiny minority of men?
I suppose one way of answering this is, why do you think as a man, you’re not allowed in the ladies’ toilet? And do you think you should be allowed in?
 

21C101

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I suppose one way of answering this is, why do you think as a man, you’re not allowed in the ladies’ toilet? And do you think you should be allowed in?
You are basically arguing the case that discrimination is right and proper in certain situations.

That particular one (who can use a toilet) is highly incendiary in certain places at the moment.

The chances of a grown up debate anytime soon on when discrimination is acceptable is vanishingly small.

What is odd is that the people on the media monstering the metropolitan police this morning (Priti Patel and Jess Philips) seem to have forgotten that the only reason met police intervened last night is to uphold the lockdown laws that they both voted for despite being warned, sadly only by a few voices in the wilderness, what they were unleashing.
 

DDB

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"Privilage" is a word that is used and gets people's backs up, amusingly often the same people who complain about "snowflakes" but I think it is an important concept as we men really, really don't understand what it is like.

This post below is doing the rounds on Facebook, it resonated with me because as a man I have indeed never done the things listed but it is clear from the reaction on Facebook that for my female friends it is absolutely routine.

There's a reason why women ALWAYS say to their friends at the end of the night, "message me when you get home."
Because there is always the fear you won't get there!
If you haven’t ever....
- text your friend to say you're home safe
- had a friend call you in a panic because you forgot to text them
- crossed a road to avoid someone
- got your phone out "just in case"
- called & said "chat to me for 5"
- noted a cab/car reg
- got your keys out in prep
- walked with only one earphone in
- looked behind you every 2mins when walking
- kept an eye out for who's in front and behind you
- locked your car door immediately
- held your breath until you’re past someone
- only walked routes that are well lit no matter how much time it will add to your journey....

Then you’re more than likely a man.

When you really stop and think about it, the realisation that our whole lives we're conditioned to be so constantly actively aware of our surroundings and personal safety it's truly saddening.
It's actually exhausting but it's something we've done our entire lives.
Every time we leave the house to go literally anywhere, analysing every corner, every person we pass, through fear that something could happen to us.
The list of things that we subconsciously do every single day because we have it instilled into us at such a young age in a bid to try to secure our own safety is enormous but nessesary.
#saraheverard could have been any of us! xxx
 

21C101

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Police response is often poor, and of course CCTV never works or produces an image that could not be any more pixelated.
To be fair the police response on this occasion (assuming they got the right person which the trial will reveal) was pretty fast and the cctv involved, which seems to be how they identified the perpetrator, was a fair bit better than pixellated.
 

AlterEgo

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You are basically arguing the case that discrimination is right and proper in certain situations.
The point is rather that we accept sex segregation as a matter of necessity, in part, to keep women safer from spooking, harassment or assault in that scenario. And it’s a very good idea. There aren’t many men who, if they enter a ladies’ toilet, will harass, spook or assault women, but *there are some*.

The problem for women is they don’t know which men will do that, and so excluding men from sensitive women’s-only spaces is entirely proper. Are you offended by the idea that you can’t go into the ladies’ toilet? Probably not, yet that’s a result of treating all men as a risk.
 
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alex397

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To be fair the police response on this occasion (assuming they got the right person which the trial will reveal) was pretty fast and the cctv involved, which seems to be how they identified the perpetrator, was a fair bit better than pixellated.
Yes you’re right. The response has been very quick, and the police should be commended for that. Especially considering the man accused is a police officer who may have hidden his tracks better than the average person. Innocent until proven guilty of course, but they appear to have strong evidence against him.

I feel many cases in my local area are not handled particularly well, from the police up to the court system. It would help if there wasn’t such huge cuts to the police force of course, especially with a expanding population in my area.
 

21C101

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The point is rather that we accept sex segregation as a matter of necessity to keep women safer in that scenario. And it’s a very good idea. There aren’t many men who, if they enter a ladies’ toilet, will harass, spook or assault women, but *there are some*.

The problem for women is they don’t know which men will do that, and so excluding men from sensitive women’s-only spaces is entirely proper. Are you offended by the idea that you can’t go into the ladies’ toilet? Probably not, yet that’s a result of treating all men as a risk.
No I'm not, but some activists are getting very hot under the collar about it.

The problem is that you can't run society on the basis of "discrimination is evil and wicked except when it suits us".

You have to have some philosphical rationale and basis, or the whole thing collapses under the weight of its own contradictions or, worse, someone gets into power who thinks the reasonable exemption involves, for example the people on the wrong end of the 1930s dictatorships.
 

Master Cutler

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This one evil act against an innocent female by what appears to be a deranged criminal male police officer should not become a stick for women to beat all men.
Appalling as the incident is, we should allow the justice system to do its job and meter out the appropriate punishment to the guilty person.
Much as I agree with the sentiments of mass demonstrations to highlight the inequalities experienced by women, surely they would be better off mounting demonstrations and lobbying Goverment after the conclusion of this horrific case.
Let's be honest, while there is a thriving sex trade which forces young women into drugs and prostitution, a single demonstration of this nature is not, in my opinion, going to further the cause of female equality.
 

Horizon22

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And how many men were killed by men last year?

The issue is still that whilst yes more men are killed by men, relatively women are more likely to be the victim of a crime as opposed to the perpetrator.

To be fair the police response on this occasion (assuming they got the right person which the trial will reveal) was pretty fast and the cctv involved, which seems to be how they identified the perpetrator, was a fair bit better than pixellated.

I've heard that all police officers have their DNA on record as a matter of course (presumably to exclude them from investigations they are investigating) so if some was obtained near where Sarah was believed to been / her remains, it might have been an easier process.
 

GB

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The point is rather that we accept sex segregation as a matter of necessity to keep women safer in that scenario. And it’s a very good idea. There aren’t many men who, if they enter a ladies’ toilet, will harass, spook or assault women, but *there are some*.

I thought separate toilets were for privacy and common decency.
 
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