Mallard to steam again?

[HarryTanser]

Here is a link to a petition to get the mallard to steam again. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/193/...-pull-trains-again/?z00m=21238460&redirectID=

If enough signatures sign the petition I am sure that the NRM could listen and by the time of Mallard 100 she could be steaming again?

 

[E&W Lucas]

There's little chance of them listening. The NRM is in the business of preserving artefacts. It has 4472 in mind as its working flagship, as there is nowt left on it that is original.
The other three UK based A4s are serviceable, and are planned to remain so. One more adds little.

 

[Clip]

Here is a link to a petition to get the mallard to steam again. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/193/...-pull-trains-again/?z00m=21238460&redirectID=

If enough signatures sign the petition I am sure that the NRM could listen and by the time of Mallard 100 she could be steaming again?

No offence and I think its laudable that you have gone to the time and effort to do this but:-

1) How much would this cost to get back into steam

2) Where is that money going to come from - dont they have enough money worries with 4472?

3) Why would they listen to a petition that only 1000 people may sign?


They also lost money at the last Railfest so even though there is a massive rail enthusiast community in these isles it seems they dont really want to go and spend money on a big thing like that so would they pay to get Mallard in steam?

 

[DarloRich]

Would i like to see it happen? Yes

Should it happen? Maybe

Will it happen? No chance

 

[Bill Stanier]

It'd be better to get 'Hamilton' restored, then we'd have a west coast streamliner in steam as well as all those A4s.

 

[chris89]

It'd be better to get 'Hamilton' restored, then we'd have a west coast streamliner in steam as well as all those A4s.

Agree with that. Although not a big fan of LMS or LNER Streamliners. It would be great to see.

Would i like to see it happen? Yes

Should it happen? Maybe

Will it happen? No chance

Same as you for that. I feel it should be left how it is. Especially since a lot will have to be modified or replaced to make it steamable.

If people want to do something, get one of the current ones painted blue and stick some replica Mallard Nameplates on it instead.

 

[Johnny_w]

As above. Pointless.

I voted disagree. So many other things that I believe (personally, as in my opinion only).

Even though I'm not much of a GWR man I'd rather see Truro working than stuffed and mounted as an example.

JW

 

[Chris125]

I can't see the point when there are three operational, mainline A4s.

Chris

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I posted 'agree' because it is after all a historic locomotive, and deserves to have money spent on it more so than 4472 which is after all only famous because of its name.

However, bringing up Flying Scotsman does raise the question of whether than money would be better spent on several smaller schemes rather than one 'Vanity' project. There should be a limit to how much is spent on such a scheme- if estimates are above this limit (I'm not qualified to put a figure on that limit though!), then keeping it as it is, as a static exhibit, is better than nothing. A campaign to prevent it being scrapped (were that the situation) though, would get my wholehearted backing.

 

[sprinterguy]

...more so than 4472 which is after all only famous because of its name.

How is that any different to "Mallard"? First authenticated 100mph run by a steam locomotive, against the highest speed attained by a steam loco: Their accolades seem comparable to me.

And the "Flying Scotsman" name has some pedigree and history behind it at least, rather than just being named for our most common species of duck.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If people want to do something, get one of the current ones painted blue and stick some replica Mallard Nameplates on it instead.

"Bittern" already is garter blue at the moment, and does have a long history of identity crises in preservation, after all. It's even from the correct batch of A4s to play the part of "Mallard" (Only need to change one digit of the number!).

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Rather than the huge cost of restoring Mallard to operating condition - not to mention the risk of destroying much of the original - why not put the money into a new build version?

Mallard II could incorporate all the latest developments in steam engine technology, modern braking systems, mechanical stoking etc.

140mph steam on the main line, anyone?

 

[Bill Stanier]

There won't be much of the original 'Mallard' in that loco in the NRM. At every major overhaul large parts (boilers etc) were often swapped out. Originality is no argument for not restoring it; that there are other A4s in steam is such an argument.

I don't think there's any doubt that 4472 has been a ludicrous money pit, both in private and NRM ownership, and it ain't over yet! The loco is only famous for its name (among Joe Public if not rail buffs). The certified 100mph was quite possibly attained by other locos before, but not certified. If you ask Joe Piublic to name a motor bike many will say 'Harley Davidson', even though most motorcyclists hold them in distain. It's the same with 'Scotsman'.

NRM have thrown good money after bad in the hope its public 'name' will reap the rewards if it ever runs main line again. It must have bled them dry (the Science Museum Group is in deep financial do do). It grieves me to think what could have been done with that money if spent on other more deserving NRM exhibits. 4472 should have been stuffed and mounted!

 

[sprinterguy]

Rather than the huge cost of restoring Mallard to operating condition - not to mention the risk of destroying much of the original - why not put the money into a new build version?

Mallard II could incorporate all the latest developments in steam engine technology, modern braking systems, mechanical stoking etc.

With three real A4s already on the main line, I can see even less of an argument for putting a "new" steam loco under an A4 outline than I can for resurrecting "Mallard" itself. Any new build steam locos should either fill gaps in classes that were never preserved, or be something radically different from the conservative conventions of the traditional steam locomotive of yore.

I would love to see "Mallard" back in steam, however the fact that there are already three main-line registered A4s, and that the restoration would no doubt detract from the "authenticity" of the loco as a historical artefact (While it is true that very few components are probably original, the vast majority must at least be contemporary with the revenue-earning service of the class), makes a compelling argument not to do so. Especially when there is only a finite amount of money in railway preservation circles and so many deserving projects already out there.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

With three real A4s already on the main line, I can see even less of an argument for putting a "new" steam loco under an A4 outline than I can for resurrecting "Mallard" itself. Any new build steam locos should either fill gaps in classes that were never preserved, or be something radically different from the conservative conventions of the traditional steam locomotive of yore.

It wouldn't need to be an exact outline of the original A4. What I had in mind is more along the lines of the 'new' MINI which has some of the characteristics of the original but is very much its own design, while combining some of the latest in automotive technology. The basic 'wedge' shape is a good starting point for any high-speed locomotive, and as you say, it could be the springboard for something that is radically different under the skin.

 

[Dawg]

Personally - and biased - i'd rather see another Stanier Pacific out working. A streamlined 6229 Duchess Of Hamilton or even getting 46235 City Of Birmingham out of that dreadful think tank museum... hell, if they built Tornado from scratch, then getting one of these going shouldn't be impossible..



(*cough* ...money ... *cough) :roll:

 

[Oswyntail]

In a "mixed economy" there is a place for static exhibits and working engines, but there must be a balance. It is just as important to be able to look round an engine as it is to see it slipping in the hills. To my mind, seeing an active loco should be exciting, not just for the sound/smell/vista, but because it is rare. Would another A4 not just flood the market? We don't want to get to the state of Bulleid pacifics where they became slightly tedious at one stage.
As for building replicas.....:roll:

 

[alexl92]

City of Birmingham won't be touched (unfortunately) because it's the only one thats in as close to original condition as possible.

I'd love to see DoH back in action, or another Duchess built from scratch actually, but I agree that new builds should be filling gaps.

Mallard as a project is a no-go. She brings in far more money to the NRM as a static exhibit than she ever would running the mainline, and to be honest, I'm not that disappointed. I'd rather see one of the stateside A4s repatriated.

 

[Dawg]

Fair point about 46235 - though I'd like to see it in a proper rail museum like the NRM.

New build Duchess - I'd make a replica of the 'one that got away' - my avatar 46256 Sir William A Stanier FRS. Reputedly on the final trip back to Crewe in September 1964, a plan was hatched to purchase it from B.R - turned out that £2500 was the asking price..... By December it was cut up.


I have my own version - my late father constructed a 5" gauge live steam replica model of 46256. At least one version is still in operation!

 

[TheEdge]

It would be lovely to see Mallard attacking Stoke Bank at speed but it'll never happen. Of the 4 A4s in the UK its the only one that isn't working and isn't even the only one with a speed record, I'm pretty sure Gresley holds the BR top speed record.

All things considered it is more historical artifact than steam train and held by one of the most pedantic organisations in the UK. Remember the NRM have stuffed and mounted Green Arrow because to fix it would see removal of the monobloc, something that BR removed in reality due to cracks. I also asked someone at the Great Gathering, apparently she really isn't in the greatest mechanical state. Fire dropped after its runs in the 1980s and had nothing but cosmetic work since.

 

[ThePannier]

I'll be honest, I think the NRM think too highly of Mallard to want to steam her again. Whilst Flying Scotsman should hopefully be out and about in a short while, what would they have to stand for at the actual museum if their two most notable locomotives weren't even residing there? Think about it.

In my opinion, it's either one or the other. If Flying Scotsman is out, and Mallard is in, then they'll be safe. If Mallard is out, and Flying Scotsman is in, then they'll be safe. If Flying Scotsman and Mallard are both in, then they'll get just as many visitors, in theory. But if neither are there, there won't be so many people attracted to the place.

The NRM spend so much time using Mallard and Flying Scotsman for publicity, etc., if both weren't even there - the place could lose it's purpose! What else is there? - fair enough there's the Duchess of Hamilton, but she's nowhere near as popular with people as either 4472 or 4468 are! People aren't going to come from all around the world to not see the two most famous steam engines in the world, are they?

While I would absolutely love to see it happen, from a different point of view, it ain't gonna!

 

[alexl92]

^^^
That is it in a nutshell. They've admitted before that in terms of the tourism 4468 brings in, she's simply too valuable to re-steam.

Plus, what if they spent say, £2m (I'm guessing - no idea what it would actually cost) getting her mainlined as well as 4472, and they arrange a series of tours for her and then NR slaps a steam ban on due to hot weather or a dispute or something, or the operator can't crew the train? Then their two biggest draws would be neither on display in the Great Hall nor repaying the investment in them by working leaving a lot of money spent for no return.

 

[60163]

Definitely keep Mallard in the museum, three A4s is enough. Agree that City of Truro and others should have money flung at them instead of 4472.

On a side note, I'd like to see locos swapped around with other preserved examples from their classes - e.g. a knackered 40 could be switched with D200 which could be put back into running order, so there's always one at the museum.

 

[alexl92]

Definitely keep Mallard in the museum, three A4s is enough. Agree that City of Truro and others should have money flung at them instead of 4472.

On a side note, I'd like to see locos swapped around with other preserved examples from their classes - e.g. a knackered 40 could be switched with D200 which could be put back into running order, so there's always one at the museum.

I like the idea of swapping them in and out. I think knackered examples of classes are as interesting as those that are pristine - if not more so.

Also, what about an arrangement where locomotives from heritage lines that are waiting for an overhaul or restoration that's not going to happen any time soon spend 6 months or so in the museum?

Or even something like Dame Vera Lynn where there's a whole appeal dedicated to it - put the loco in the NRM with a little display next to it (doesn't have to be anything expensive - just a few pop up poster/banner things) and a donations box? That way you have constantly changing exhibits, and an opportunity for the owners to raise awareness and support. Surely that would benefit the museum by keeping things fresh and the railways by providing an opportunity for out-of-service locos to be useful rather than just sitting in a siding.

Re: City of Truro - I *think* the NRM feel that to put her back in working order would require the replacement of so many parts that it would no longer be mostly the original loco. We've heard that one before, of course...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm surprised they haven't put the Class Q1 back into service. I love it - think it's fascinating - but I'd have thought there'd be plenty of takers for a powerful 0-6-0 on heritage lines in the south. I'm sure the Bluebell would have it back for example.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Personally - and biased - i'd rather see another Stanier Pacific out working. A streamlined 6229 Duchess Of Hamilton or even getting 46235 City Of Birmingham out of that dreadful think tank museum... hell, if they built Tornado from scratch, then getting one of these going shouldn't be impossible..



(*cough* ...money ... *cough) :roll:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who detests Thinktank. I miss the old Museum of Science and Technology. And I'd love to see City of Birmingham back on the rails.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It wouldn't need to be an exact outline of the original A4. What I had in mind is more along the lines of the 'new' MINI which has none of the characteristics of the original but is very much its own design, while combining some of the latest in automotive technology. The basic 'wedge' shape is a good starting point for any high-speed locomotive, and as you say, it could be the springboard for something that is radically different under the skin.

Fixed the quote for you.

A Pastiche would be awful. We have three REAL A4s on the mainline.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

I would think that after the debacle with 4472, the NRM would think very, very carefully about rebuilding anything - be it steam, diesel or electric

 

[alexl92]

I'd imagine they'll put tighter controls in place and ensure that proper surveys are done in future but surely it won't stop them altogether?

 

[Bevan Price]

I believe Mallard was in a bit of a "fragile" condition when it was let out in 1988 (50th Anniversary of the record), and was allowed to run a very limited number of specials. With other A4s in working condition, the costs of restoring Mallard to working order would not be justified - it would be easier to "fake" a Mallard by temporarily putting duplicate name & number plates on one of the other A4s.

As for the enormous sums spent on Flying Scotsman - I did once overhear someone commenting on the lines of "too many cooks, etc." No idea if this is true, though.

 

[Willr2094]

Much as I'd like to see Mallard in steam, being born just too late (1990) to be around when it was last in working order, I don't think it ever will, for two main reasons:
1) If it was to be overhauled for mainline railtour work, it would require, in addition to a full boiler stripdown and rebuild, to be fitted with modern safety electronics (TPWS, OTMR) as well as conversion to air braking. All of this, together with the admin involved in recertifying the locomotive for mainline operation (such as paying for boiler certification) would be prohibitively expensive.
2) There are three other A4s which are much more compatible with modern operations, having been modified to allow them and Mallard is a representative of the A4 class as they were in commercial service, so rebuilding it for operations today would destroy that authenticity.
3) Would the NRM consider financing it in view of the Flying Scotsman debacle?