Manchester Airport railway station, discussion and ideas

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by PR1Berske, 3 Aug 2018.

  1. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    This point you mention is one that I would ask what you envisage the length of time to be that a major two runway airport with a number of terminal buildings would take to be fully completed and who would bear the cost of construction? There are also the costs incurred in improved airport based freight company relocations and associated business park premises such as the new Manchester one notwithstanding the land requirements that would be required for a new airport railway station, a new coach and bus interchange and for the replacement of the currently large car parking facilities that so exist at present. Then there is the matter of the number of staff required and the availability in the Newton-le-Willows land catchment area.

    Wythenshawe with its very large population base has been cited on this thread as offering staff jobs at Manchester airport for the people very local to that airport, whereas Newton-le-Willows has no comparative population base.
     
  2. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    I know you've made the resource argument before, and with TPEs capacity under strain it would have made a good one years ago, some would say since March 2006 (?) when the first 3 car 185s rolled into service (I remember on of the first publicity runs rolling into Leeds and thinking they could do with being 4 or 5 car). However with the new stock on the horizon, indeed in testing its something of a moot point now, kind of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

    Its a good job that Hadfield isn't closer to the airport, they wouldn't like all those "not local" nearby..... ;)
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    That is a fair point (though I fear the "sparks effect" of a significant upgrade from poshed-up suburban style units to "proper InterCity" will cause the same problem to recur, requiring all the new stock to be extended to 6 or even 7-car) though equally there is still the Ordsall Chord problem, which will continue to exist until 15/16 are built.

    :D
     
  4. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    This I don't doubt, give it 3-4 years and I suspect the TPEs will be full to bursting again. Let's just hope at the first signs of this happening whoever has the franchise (given First's current situation this could be anybody) is able to quickly procure additional carriages from CAF or Hitachi, though in truth I for one will not be holding my breath!
     
  5. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Member

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    Quite, the fact that anything longer than 6 cars (or Loco plus 5) on the Ordsall Chord will overhang the overlap of the previous junction. Thus setting 6 car formations as the maximum length, in stone for all future generations.
     
  6. Killingworth

    Killingworth Member

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    Dream on, but just to take it a little way further into the world of fantasy, to a TPE airport to northern airport service.

    Yes, the line to Callerton was engineered to heavy rail standards and probably could be relaid to take a 185, although gauging would be a challenge. It's even possible the current airport platforms could be altered sufficiently to take a 3 car 185. Anything longer would be a more major construction issue. Where a Metro train could then layover would need to be resolved, especially with a TPE needing a longer recovery stop.

    Unfortunately running such a train up the shortest route through Manors and Jesmond to take the line west is no longer an option as that route has been built over. It might be possible approaching Manors from Heaton, the reverse direction, but that tunnel is probably engineered for Metro trains only - otherwise a new tunnel would be needed, difficult, and expensive! In any case the Metro service is at maximum frequency on that section.

    The alternative of running fast up the ECML to Benton and taking the loop from Benton Quarry might actually work. Although the loop has been lifted the trackbed seems to remain intact. The lower frequency of services on both Metro routes north of South Gosforth should make pathing relatively easy to resolve.

    3 level crossings might be more tricky, not least because they'd rather slow down this part of the route. For electrical compatability lessons from the South Yorkshire tram/train project would need considering! Methinks taking an ECML service down there really would be a challenge too far.

    Could make a useful link if Manchester is closed and diversions are needed:)

    Fantastic indeed, or is it? Dream on and someone may like to start a new thread!! Northern Airports inter-connector routes, working together for a better north.

    And then there's the DSA diversion, to the north's second biggest commercial airfield. Wake up, let's fix what we've got first.
     
  7. B&I

    B&I Established Member

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    Strikes me sometimes that there are a lot more things that Metrolink isn't, than is. But still, there's no reason why, it is was ever expanded into a complete city-wide tram system, you couldn't have a fast service on a bypass line in addition to the existing wavy-davy route
     
  8. B&I

    B&I Established Member

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    Another reason, perhaps, not to put all our eggs in one basket when it comes to Transpennine routes. If Calder Valley could be speeded up, platforms lengthened and (please God) electrified, there would I think be justification to send a proper length Transpennine train (rather than a more tiddly Northern Connect) that way twice an hour to serve Bradford and take the strain off the Huddersfield route
     
    Last edited: 10 Aug 2018
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm sure you could - but given that there is already a fast service from Manchester to the airport (the train) it doesn't strike me as the best way of spending money.
     
  10. B&I

    B&I Established Member

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    I suppose it depends on what scale we are talking. I look forward to a day when rail and tram run in every direction out of our.major cities, and car traffic has been largely eliminated from them, but reality proves a constant disappointment
     
  11. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    On the contrary. I was just making the point that the bus service from South Parkway to the Airport is useful for people travelling from Manchester/Warrington/Runcorn, rather than those coming from the city centre who might take the bus all the way.

    But IMO what is really needed at John Lennon, if only funding could be found, is a through station, with eastern links to both the Ditton and CLC lines. Then the Airport could have direct trains to Birmingham, Manchester/Sheffield/Nottingham, Chester/North Wales (via the Halton Curve) and Manchester Airport (for connections).

    That would really boost growth.
     
  12. snowball

    snowball Established Member

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    There is still an aspiration to build the "western loop" which would provide a somewhat more direct route between the airport and the city centre than the present route. Fom the existing airport station it would run first to Terminal 2 (they have applied for funding for this stretch), then over the M56 to the HS2 station, then past Wythenshawe Hospital to rejoin the existing route at the corner of Southmoor Road and Hollyhedge Road.

    In fact this was the first route considered for the south end of the Metrolink airport line, but the route that has been built was found to give greater benefits because it connected more people.
     
  13. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    I don't think extra Mark Vs will be ordered because it would slow down the services. Hitachi will need extra work for Newton Aycliffe from 2020 but which services could take longer units apart from Liverpool-Newcastle? The proposed split of Liverpool-Norwich in December 2021 would be the obvious time to introduce new stock and cascade more 185s but I am not holding my breath either.

    Thats probably the most damning argument against the Ordsall Chord that I have heard. Combined with platform lengths at Oxford Road and Salford Crescent it will be expensive to enable anything longer than 6 coaches to run through the Castlefield Corridor. Switching the Airport-Middlesbrough service with the Piccadilly-Leeds service might be a reasonable compromise for May 2019. If one has to lose its Airport service then Middlesbrough is less important than Newcastle.
     
  14. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

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    Paul it was just a joke about NLW! It's the kind of thing you'd get in a Communist state where central planning can do that kind of thing, but not here. We can't even plan a pub crawl in this country, never mind an actual strategy for economic development. If we had, we'd likely to be all flying out of Burtonwood now which was the most missed of all missed opportunities. Anyway, given the expension work on Manchester Airport, it could end up with something like Heathrow with extra stations/stops to serve different parts. Imagine if that did happen, we could have more daily mail style fury and Irritation on here!
     
  15. David Emmott

    David Emmott Member

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    Sorry if this is a tangent too far, on a Manchester airport thread, but what often fails to be mentioned in discussion of possible rail links to JLA is the ability to provide Speke, a substantial suburb on the edge of Liverpool, with a rail link. It has a population of 20 thousand and served by (admittedly frequent, but) slow buses to the city centre. The airport would probably be the main justification for a new line, but this should be an added incentive. Speke's current isolation is one of the main reasons for its low socio-economic rating.
     
  16. Altfish

    Altfish Member

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    There seems to be a lot of undeveloped land to the east of the airport; couldn't a line be brought in from the Liverpool - Runcorn line somewhere near the A561 crosses it? It doesn't look too far 2 or 3 miles at most
     
  17. B&I

    B&I Established Member

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    The problem with a rail link at Liverpool is that, unless a loop is built, it will require services of its own. There is little likelihood of long distance services going to it, as they'd either have to divert om their way to Lime Street or reverse back out of it.

    That's why I think a people mover to South Parkway, provided it's fast enough, would be the best solution. It could be built overhead with stops at the retail park and airport hotels before reaching the terminal. It could carry on from the airport in a loop to serve Speke estate more effectively than a single heavy rail station would
     
  18. David Emmott

    David Emmott Member

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    In that case why not extend it along the slow lines from Parkway into the city centre, as one of the original Merseytram proposals had it?
     
  19. Killingworth

    Killingworth Member

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    Arranging air links to airports is always going to be difficult because each aircraft carries relatively few passengers from a wide geographical area of starting points around the compass. That's where Manchester scores due to the variety of air destinations, and sources of passengers.

    If a circle is drawn around Liverpool and Newcastle a large part of it is filled with sea or is sparsely populated. More an issue with Newcastle, but Liverpool's circle includes Manchester. Neither has a main line railway both conveniently close and where enough trains could be diverted (even if construction were feasible and funds available) without adding significant delays to other travellers. I know Newcastle better than Liverpool, and although a diversion from the ECML both north and south could be made via Benton, and then along the Metro, the in/out detour would be totally unworkable.

    However, upstart Doncaster/Sheffield Airport, DSA, is seriously proposing that a detour off the ECML should be made south of Doncaster to run past the airport. Doncaster council is very much in support and Peel Holdings are lobbying strongly for it. I was at the public launch of the airport development project in March and they're very serious. The fact that all afternoon I only saw one small aircraft land and one take off showed they need a lot of trains full of frequent fliers to make it go! However, the ambition is there. See: https://sheffieldcityregion.org.uk/2018/03/21/doncaster-sheffield-airport-unveils-masterplan-73000-jobs-sheffield-city-region/ and; http://flydsa.co.uk/vision
    and; http://flydsa.co.uk/uploads/documents/dsa-a-northern-vision-for-a-connected-national-economy_LR.pdf

    The Great Yorkshire Way link road to the airport from the M1 via M18 has just been completed. Who knows, in 40 years time Doncaster's economy may have been boosted as a result of the airport's success, and it may have become the north's second busiest airport. I don't see any scenario in which Manchester could lose first place. (Peel also operate Durham Tees Valley, aka Teesside, which has been virtually snuffed out by Newcastle, it's rail station with it!)

    We may scoff, but it's a big airfield with lots of flat land all around.
     
  20. B&I

    B&I Established Member

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    The people mover ? I don't think you'd get one fast enough for the benefit of a direct journey to.the city centre to outweigh the time penalty compared to changing to a non-stop fast Lime Street service at South Parkway (bear in mind there are 5 of those per hour for most of the day). Much as I'd like to see an 'overhead railway' return to central Liverpool, I don't think this would be it
     
  21. Altfish

    Altfish Member

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    Don't forget that many users of public transport to airports are employees
     
  22. Killingworth

    Killingworth Member

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    True, which is why Metrolink and the Tyne & Wear Metro carry many of them.
     
  23. si404

    si404 Member

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    Which is why, while unsexy, high quality local services to the airport are going to be more well used than fast trains to all sorts of places 100km+ away.

    Of course, with Manchester, these fast trains stop at least twice in the city centre (save Transpennine South) before going off to far-flung places at low frequencies, which makes it less terrible.
     
  24. frodshamfella

    frodshamfella Member

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    The case of a fixed rail link into John Lennon is on Merseytravels ' to do ' list, a project such as this would be a major construction and take some time to complete. By that time passenger figures out of Liverpool will have grown. I also wonder if Speke town could be added to an airport link, there is a large amount of housing with poor public transport provision.
     
  25. frodshamfella

    frodshamfella Member

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    Yes true...when you look at what happens in London, the NW gets crumbs. Still Halton Curve opens soon...all mile and half of it ..so I should be quiet !
     
  26. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

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    No, you can't say that on here and agree with me, you'll have brittle and irritated writing another destruction about me and you this year! Hehe
     
  27. B&I

    B&I Established Member

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    Driver_manc, if you are going to get touchy and personal because I point out your bias against Liverpool and Scousers, at least have the courtesy to be touchy and personal to me personally
     
    Last edited: 12 Aug 2018
  28. CHAPS2034

    CHAPS2034 Member

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    Several pages back there was the comment that the only economic benefit of Manchester Airport was to the owners. No one seemed to be able to find any evidence of the economic benefit of the Airport.

    However, a few seconds on google found this document - Item 10 of a GMCA Committte report from 8th June this year. It is of course written for Greater Manchester and was authored by someone at the Airport, so therefore will be a farrago of puffery, lies and obfuscation in the eyes of some on here...

    https://www.greatermanchester-ca.go...iness_growth_and_skills_overview_and_scrutiny

    For anyone who can't be arsed to download it here's some relevant bits (my bold)

    3. ECONOMIC IMPACT OF MANCHESTER AIRPORT

    3.1 Manchester Airport supports the growth of the GM economy in several ways, of which the most significant are:

    i) International connectivity for businesses, residents, visitors, investors and trade. And as set out above, it is the best connected airport in the UK outside London, strongly supporting GM’s internationalisation agenda and also the development of the Northern Powerhouse, given the importance of world-class global connectivity to the ‘prime’ and ‘enabling’ capabilities of the North identified in the NPIER. (Advanced Manufacturing, Energy, Health Innovation, Digital, Financial & Professional Services, Logistics and (Higher) Education. effects).

    ii) Ground transport hub – Manchester Airport has also developed into a key ground transport interchange for GM and the North, being a key 24/7 node on the rail, road/motorway, Metrolink and bus/coach networks. With the development of the HS2 station, the airport will also become a key node on HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail. Importantly, this ground connectivity supports further airline route development by broadening and strengthening the airport’s catchment, whilst also being a key transport asset for the North.

    iii) Major employer – MAG is a major employer, and businesses operating across the airport employ nearly 24,000 people, with further multiplier benefits for firms across the region. MAG’s investments onsite will also support significant construction employment over the coming years.

    iv) Strategic development area – because of its connectivity, the airport is also an ideal area for development. With Enterprise Zone status, Airport City Manchester is one of GM’s strategic development sites, with ongoing developments on course to deliver significant growth in mixed-used space and employment opportunities.

    Taken together these factors mean that the airport is one of the most significant and strategic economic assets in GM. Further growth at the airport will deliver economic benefits not just for the local area but also for the whole North of England, through connectivity and economic multiplier .

    The section below quantifies these benefits in further detail from independent analysis carried out for MAG by York Aviation.

    INDEPENDENT ECONOMIC IMPACT ASSESSMENT

    3.2 Manchester Airport as a company and as a site is one of Greater Manchester and the North West’s largest employers. The site is also the headquarters of the wider Manchester Airports Group (MAG), one of only a few major corporates with their headquarters in the city. Whilst MAG employs 5,367 people, in total there are 23,400 people directly employed on the airport site.

    3.3 York Aviation estimates that multiplier effects from the site support further indirect & induced jobs, deliver business productivity benefits and support tourism across the North West. This gives a total impact of Manchester Airport across the North West of 71,000 jobs and £4.6 billion of gross value added (GVA). With the growth of the airport, this contribution has also increased by 60% or nearly £450million over the last four years.

    3.4 MAG’s contribution to the national economy is even greater, partly because MAG operates other UK airports (London Stansted and East Midlands), but also because the multiplier effect of MAG’s operations and connectivity extend nationwide, benefitting businesses across the UK as a whole. This contribution has also increased strongly, both with the acquisition of London Stansted and the expanding operations across MAG’s airports. As such, York Aviation estimates that MAG delivers an overall impact to the UK economy of 244,690 jobs and £16.6billion of GVA, as detailed in the table below.

    Note the table won't cut and paste in a good format but it shows that the wider impacts generate some 52,000 additional jobs in the region

    3.5 As Manchester Airport and the wider Group continue to develop, adding new routes and new business areas, it has also seen employment grow strongly. MAG’s total employment grew by 50% with the acquisition of London Stansted Airport in 2013 and since that time, the strong performance of the business has driven a further 28% growth in employment to 2016/17, with further growth this year. Strong growth at Manchester has seen total employment across all businesses on the Manchester Airport site grow by 17% over the last five years, a further 3,400 new jobs for GM.

    3.6 Manchester Airport is a key asset for the whole North of England in giving residents direct access to the whole range of international leisure destinations, but as importantly for the economy, also provides a gateway for international visitors to GM and the wider North. GM’s visitor economy is a major economic driver, generating £8.1billion p.a. of GVA, and attracting 1.38million international visits (in 2016), a growth of 24% over the last decade. This makes Manchester the third most visited UK city by international tourists behind London and Edinburgh, with Manchester Airport being an increasingly important gateway for these visits.

    And later a section on connectivity

    4. INTERNATIONAL CONNECTIVITY

    4.1 A key driver of the wider economic benefits the airport delivers is international connectivity, which allows business travel, brings visitors, and supports trade. Manchester Airport’s extensive route network also supports the delivery of airfreight carried in the bellyhold of passenger planes, second only to Heathrow in the UK, at 123,000 tonnes in 2017/18.

    4.2 Recognising the importance of international connectivity to GM’s internationalisation and growth agenda, the airport has worked closely for a number of years with GM stakeholders to deliver direct services to China. In 2014, Cathay Pacific launched a new service to Hong Kong, which was subsequently upgraded from four services per week to a daily service in 2017. Over 455,000 passengers have used the Manchester– Hong Kong service since its launch in 2014. In 2016, Hainan Airlines launched a Manchester-Beijing service. Since the launch, 173,000 passengers have flown on the route. The China Dividend report was an independent assessment by Steer Davies Gleave (SDG) for the Manchester–China Forum of the economic benefits of the new Beijing route, which showed unambiguously the wider economic benefits of international connectivity. The fact that the route was previously unserved provided an opportunity to conduct a ‘before’ and ‘after’ study of the impact of a new link to a key market. The key findings were:
     higher than planned passenger numbers in the first year, with 38% more people travelling from Manchester’s catchment, driving a 21% uplift in total UK–China air passenger journeys;
     Manchester is now the second largest UK air route for exports to China;
     an increasing pipeline of inward investment projects and a marked uplift in Northern Powerhouse inward investment projects;
     a 54% increase in Chinese interests in property;
     business and civic links, leading to an increasing number of senior delegation visits, which will in turn lead to new partnerships and investments;
     a contribution to the visitor economy of c.£139million annually on a net present value basis over the coming five years and the inclusion of Manchester and the wider North of England in Chinese tour operators’ leisure tour programmes; and
     an increasing Chinese student population.

    The SDG report concludes that these impacts will not just multiply in line with increased passenger volumes, but they will also interact with each other to deliver a long-term and sustainable set of benefits that will make a major contribution to the creation of both a prosperous Northern economy and a balanced and outward-facing UK. The flow of goods, services, and people in both directions is further enhancing the perception among Chinese officials, businesses and individuals that GM – and the wider Northern Powerhouse – is an attractive place to visit, invest in and trade with.

    4.3 Building on the success of the Beijing route, further route development work is ongoing, with two key successes recently coming to fruition:
     A new direct service from Manchester to Mumbai with Jet Airways will operate four times a week from 5 November 2018. This will be the first direct flight from the North to India’s economic capital, and is an early success for the Manchester–India Partnership (MIP), of which the airport has been a leading member.
     A new route between Manchester and Addis Ababa, Africa’s largest hub, will be operated by Ethiopian Airways from 1 December 2018. This will provide passengers within the airport’s catchment area with connectivity to 60 countries across Africa.
    ENDS

    So of course the airport only benefits the shareholders...

    Anyway, who are these people demanding that they all have services to the Airport. Politicians, business organisations and residents of far flung places seems to be part of the answer. Look at the kerfuffle from North Lincolnshire when there was some thought of terminating TPE South at Donny and having a Cleethorpes connection from there. Or the massive fuss in and around Furness when the number of trains to the Airport were cut.

    Now it should be remembered that there was an option in the last TP franchise submission for some north TPE services to go to alternative destinations such as Liverpool rather than running round to the Airport. AFAIK no such proposition was made by the bidders. Why? Well I don't know but one suspects commercial considerations had as much to do with it as political pressure.

    Incidentally it took several years of intense lobbying before the Government finally caved in to pressure decades ago to allow the airport station to be built in the first place as I remember well. And the initial proposal was to have a through station - but not out to Ashley but as a one way loop in cut and cover looping around to the north and back onto the airport spur near the runway end to allow loco hauled trains to operate from Piccadilly to London via the Airporto_O
     
  29. Agent_Squash

    Agent_Squash Member

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    Should point out that the Furness trains to the Airport also provided the (only) service to Manchester itself. It was more a case of 'cutting off' the Furness area from Manchester, not just the airport.
     
  30. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    It does have a lot of space around it, well for now at least, but that doesn't mean that it's owners are going to be able to convince NR for am ECML spur to it. The position of the airport and the alignment of the ECML means it would have to be a considerable curved spur to get anywhere close to the terminal building then back to the main alignment. This means slower speeds through any such spur, and so its almost impossible to see most ECML services calling at it. Peel may be making the right noises for such an extension, but its a whole other issue getting it built. Unlike Manchester, which has services from a large portion of the catchment area for the airport, Doncaster is really only served by a small proportion of the kind of catchment area it would need to become the North's second airport.

    Stuck out there in the south east of the county, it can really only ever realistically hope to serve South Yorkshire & Lincolnshire. There would be little to no demand from further south as Birmingham & the South East airports would soak up most of that, the North West would continue to be served by Manchester so the only possible market might be West & North Yorkshire, and they'd have a fight on to wrestle the 4 million plus using LBA. In all honesty I can see Doncaster being more useful for cargo than as a major passenger airport.
     

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