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Manchester Airport's 10 year plan announced for £1 billion improvements

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pemma

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Stockport bus station dep. 0425....Manchester Airport arr. 0440
Stockport bus station dep. 0500....Manchester Airport arr. 0515

Are those two buses from Stockport not adequate?

The Airport recommends if you're checking in for flights to the EU that you arrive at least 2 hours before the departure time. Since last week the earliest departures are now 05:20 instead of 06:00, so public transport arriving no later than 03:20 is required for people wanting to make the early flights using the Airport's own guideline.
 
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radamfi

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The Airport recommends if you're checking in for flights to the EU that you arrive at least 2 hours before the departure time. Since last week the earliest departures are now 05:20 instead of 06:00, so public transport arriving no later than 03:20 is required for people wanting to make the early flights using the Airport's own guideline.

Also, that's only good for people near Stockport town centre or along the route from Buxton because it runs non-stop via the motorway. Some airport workers need to be at the airport by 0400. Gatwick workers along these routes can get there by that time, 7 days a week:

http://www.metrobus.co.uk/download/25307.1/10-timetable-300814/?disposition=inline (runs all night)

http://www.metrobus.co.uk/download/28119/200-timetable-300515/?disposition=inline (runs all night on part of route)

http://www.metrobus.co.uk/download/28064.4/20-timetable-300515/?disposition=inline

http://www.metrobus.co.uk/download/25634.7/100-timetable-170514/?disposition=inline

http://www.metrobus.co.uk/download/28392/320-time-300515/?disposition=inline (circa 30 miles trip from 0238, arriving at Gatwick at 0338)

http://www.metrobus.co.uk/download/28419.3/380-time-300515/?disposition=inline (circa 40 miles trip starting at 0145, arriving at Gatwick at 0338)

You would have thought that there would be more need for early buses along the 369 route rather than between Buxton and Stockport.

It is as if MAN airport assume that all their workers live along the 43 and 105 routes.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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The Airport recommends if you're checking in for flights to the EU that you arrive at least 2 hours before the departure time. Since last week the earliest departures are now 05:20 instead of 06:00, so public transport arriving no later than 03:20 is required for people wanting to make the early flights using the Airport's own guideline.

For those who use the airport for their holiday flights only who have to be there at the very early times that you mention, there seems to be no shortage of taxi companies to collect you direct from your home and take you and your luggage direct to the airport.

We do not live in a wonderful world of 24 hour public transport of all modes to meet our every travel whims.
 

pemma

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We do not live in a wonderful world of 24 hour public transport of all modes to meet our every travel whims.

Question is why not?

Sunday rail services are seeing improvements as more and more people want to travel further than their local church on a Sunday.

If places (including the Airport) are open for longer than why shouldn't bus services operate for longer?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Question is why not? Sunday rail services are seeing improvements as more and more people want to travel further than their local church on a Sunday.

If places (including the Airport) are open for longer than why shouldn't bus services operate for longer?

All that I can say is that if a demand as has been previously stated does exist, why have no bus operators jumped at the chance to run commercially operated services at the times and from those settlements to Manchester Airport?

Have you spoken to any of the bus operators on this matter to see what views they hold upon the subject?
 

pemma

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All that I can say is that if a demand as has been previously stated does exist, why have no bus operators jumped at the chance to run commercially operated services at the times and from those settlements to Manchester Airport?

Have you spoken to any of the bus operators on this matter to see what views they hold upon the subject?

I'm doubtful every bus operator closely follows the flight arrival and departure times at the Airport. I wonder if the Airport or Thomas Cook have informed transport providers (bus, coach and rail) that the early flights now leave around 40 minutes than they did a couple of weeks ago.

I am aware that the CEO of one independent bus operator said the Airport wasn't exactly accommodating when he proposed running a commercial 24 hour service to the Airport. He also said the same was true of Liverpool Airport.

You seem to be of the opinion that onward public transport links is not the Airport's responsibility. However, given everyone passing through the Airport pays money to the Airport through their airfare, why shouldn't the Airport accept some responsibility? Would you be happy if Cheshire East council withdrew funding for the 19 Macclesfield-Prestbury bus and GHA declared there's no enough demand to continue running it without a subsidy? If not why should overnight services to the Airport only exist if an operator thinks they'll be significant demand to operate without a subsidy initially?
 
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radamfi

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Obviously we can't expect ALL people to have 24 hour access to the airport. But it is not unreasonable to think that a large proportion should be able to reach the airport for early flights. If you have to pay silly money for taxis or airport parking, that can make it cheaper to fly at a more sociable time of day. It is a joint responsibility of the airport and the transport authorities. Given the high density of population around Manchester airport, there should actually be higher demand than around Gatwick, yet Gatwick has much better local buses. Gatwick only has the immediate towns of Crawley and Horley, total population of about 150,000, with other towns a fair distance away, but there are probably at least twice that within a short bus ride of Manchester airport. A lot of Gatwick buses wouldn't exist without the long term commitment that the airport has to improving access. Manchester certainly can afford improved transport, given its recent spending spree on buying other airports, notably Stansted.

Amsterdam airport can be accessed from a wide area overnight, including many small villages and suburban areas, yet the Amsterdam urban area is only about half the population of Greater Manchester.
 
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pemma

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Obviously we can't expect ALL people to have 24 hour access to the airport.

Agreed. Like I've said before I think the priority for direct transport links should be places within a commutable distance of the Airport. It doesn't make sense that York gets a direct overnight service to the Airport, yet Warrington currently doesn't even get that during the day.

Also it obviously would be difficult for every village to have a direct service to the Airport. The focus should be on giving towns a direct Airport link with villages having connecting services, unless they happen to be on a fairly direct route to and from the Airport like Styal is.
 

edwin_m

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Agreed. Like I've said before I think the priority for direct transport links should be places within a commutable distance of the Airport. It doesn't make sense that York gets a direct overnight service to the Airport, yet Warrington currently doesn't even get that during the day.

Warrington to the airport is getting on for twice as far by rail as the straight line distance, and by road it's motorway nearly all the way. So there's probably not much demand for a rail service between those two points, though an orbital Metrolink might do better.
 

pemma

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Warrington to the airport is getting on for twice as far by rail as the straight line distance, and by road it's motorway nearly all the way. So there's probably not much demand for a rail service between those two points

I didn't say it had to be a rail service.

Warrington has higher than the average level of unemployment and apparently this place called Manchester Airport is creating a significant number of jobs. If one person from Warrington got a job at the Airport and used public transport to get to/from work they'd make more journeys in a year than 200 holidaymakers who fly away once a year.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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There are times that I despair if I am the only person on certain threads on this website who is aware that people have cars these days and do not rely on the use of public transport.. Some households have a number of these. It is not 1915, but 2015...a time when car ownership is rife and I ask anyone to think of the 20 houses nearest to them and see how many of these homes use the car to get to and from work.

I have been asked what my feelings would be if the service 19 from Macclesfield to Prestbury suddenly no longer exists. My answer to that, living as I do in the rural outback of the Prestbury area, some two miles away from the line taken by that particular bus service, is to coin the phrase made notorious by Paul Daniels...NOT A LOT.

We still have the two 4 x 4 at home to use where and when we so feel and are not reliant upon any bus service. We would be ashamed to have to admit to having any need whatsoever of public transport and there are numerous taxi companies still thriving with the trade they are presented with on a daily basis, seven days a week.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Obviously we can't expect ALL people to have 24 hour access to the airport. But it is not unreasonable to think that a large proportion should be able to reach the airport for early flights. If you have to pay silly money for taxis or airport parking, that can make it cheaper to fly at a more sociable time of day. It is a joint responsibility of the airport and the transport authorities.

I note the mysterious lack of stated responsibility of intending airline passengers in your statement above. If you choose to use flights, it is up to you as the prospective passenger to ensure that you can reach the airport from where plane departs.

Taxis on this thread seem to be viewed as some overcharging spawn of Satan in times when a prospective airline passenger and his luggage needs to be at an airport in the very early hours of the morning, instead of viewing the matter as being one of being collected direct from your own home, together with your luggage, and taken directly from there to an airport.
 
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tony_mac

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We would be ashamed to have to admit to having any need whatsoever of public transport
You appear to be unaware of environmental and political changes over the last few decades.
Yes, most people have access to cars, but it is better for the rest of society if they can be dissuaded from using them, in favour of more sustainable alternatives.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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You appear to be unaware of environmental and political changes over the last few decades.
Yes, most people have access to cars, but it is better for the rest of society if they can be dissuaded from using them, in favour of more sustainable alternatives.

Having now attained the age of three score and ten, I live in the real world where reality is a fact of life and not in some charitable Utopia.

How is a bus a "sustainable alternative" ?
 
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radamfi

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I have a car but never park or get a taxi to the airport. It is a huge waste of money, and also undesirable from a social and environmental perspective. I mostly fly from Gatwick and I have a 24 hour train service so there's never a problem. I moved there specifically for the 24 hour train service. Long stay is £20 per day.

Gatwick want to reduce the number of people driving to the airport. The queues on the M23 leading to the airport are already bad, particularly early morning at the weekend. For other airports, I won't use early flights if it means having to park or get an expensive taxi to the airport. I might stay near the airport overnight where I can get a shuttle bus in time for the flight.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having now attained the age of three score and ten, I live in the real world where reality is a fact of life and not in some charitable Utopia.

How is a bus a "sustainable alternative" ?

Your age is neither here nor there.

A bus might be sustainable in environmental terms, but possibly not in economic terms. Most public transport in the developed world is uneconomic but is run because society deems it to be a "good thing". For some reason, though, Britain seems to think that buses are only worth running if they are profitable.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Your age is neither here nor there.

It most certainly is, as that comment was made in response to the statement made by tony_mac....."You appear to be unaware of environmental and political changes over the last few decades"

I can assure you that I am totally aware of how matters have changed over the last few decades. However, I choose not to subscribe to any left-wing panderings that remove any private need for personal responsibility.
 

radamfi

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It most certainly is, as that comment was made in response to the statement made by tony_mac....."You appear to be unaware of environmental and political changes over the last few decades"

You don't need to be 70 years old to know that. I'm 40, but I would say you don't even need to be 40.

Transport is not a left/right issue, or at least it shouldn't be. Switzerland is as right-wing as it gets in Europe, but they've got the most renowned public transport system in the world.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I can assure you that I am totally aware of how matters have changed over the last few decades. However, I choose not to subscribe to any left-wing panderings that remove any private need for personal responsibility.

If you want to use a quote from me, then do so with ALL my quote to do so and not just a selective part that is taken out of the context of what the whole of the posting stated.

The missing part that you chose not to show is stated above and explains my personal view on that part of life.
 

edwin_m

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I didn't say it had to be a rail service.

Warrington has higher than the average level of unemployment and apparently this place called Manchester Airport is creating a significant number of jobs. If one person from Warrington got a job at the Airport and used public transport to get to/from work they'd make more journeys in a year than 200 holidaymakers who fly away once a year.

I agree a bus link would be a good idea and to be honest I'm surprised there apparently isn't one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are times that I despair if I am the only person on certain threads on this website who is aware that people have cars these days and do not rely on the use of public transport.. Some households have a number of these. It is not 1915, but 2015...a time when car ownership is rife and I ask anyone to think of the 20 houses nearest to them and see how many of these homes use the car to get to and from work.

But the point above about airport employees is also important. Some airport jobs are pretty low-paid but could represent a step on the employment ladder for people in depressed areas, if only they could get there at a reasonable cost. These people probably couldn't afford to spend several thousand a year running a car (or a second one) and they certainly wouldn't benefit from reserved parking spaces on expensive airport land. So a good public transport link probably makes the difference between a job or not, and it needs to run over long hours because of the times airport jobs tend to start and finish. That's a large chunk of the reason behind the airport Metrolink line taking such an indirect route through some run-down districts.
 

pemma

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There are times that I despair if I am the only person on certain threads on this website who is aware that people have cars these days and do not rely on the use of public transport.. Some households have a number of these. It is not 1915, but 2015...a time when car ownership is rife and I ask anyone to think of the 20 houses nearest to them and see how many of these homes use the car to get to and from work.

There's been significant changes over recent years that you seem to be ignoring.

Firstly, car ownership was at it's highest ever level in the early to mid 00s. However, then we had a recession which we are a long way from fully recovering from (whatever George Osborne and David Cameron say) and as a result of that many people have given up car ownership.

Secondly, more and more flights are following the budget airline structure. It's not just rich people going on holidays abroad, some people who've paid £50 for return flights can't afford another £25 for a taxi or £50 for a week's parking at the Airport.

I'm not sure about the 20 houses closest to me, but picking the 7 nearest ones to me and including my own:

Households with retired/unemployed people only: 3
Households where everyone drives to work*: 1
Households where one person drives to work* and the another doesn't: 1
Households where a company vehicle is used to get to work: 1
Households were people work but no-one drives to work: 2

(* In their own vehicle)

I have been asked what my feelings would be if the service 19 from Macclesfield to Prestbury suddenly no longer exists. My answer to that, living as I do in the rural outback of the Prestbury area, some two miles away from the line taken by that particular bus service, is to coin the phrase made notorious by Paul Daniels...NOT A LOT.

We still have the two 4 x 4 at home to use where and when we so feel and are not reliant upon any bus service. We would be ashamed to have to admit to having any need whatsoever of public transport and there are numerous taxi companies still thriving with the trade they are presented with on a daily basis, seven days a week.

In short that sounds like "We'd be OK without it so it wouldn't bother us if it went." I don't use the 300 Knutsford Circular route but I would care if it went for two reasons:
1. I know other people rely on it.
2. If I had an accident/injury which meant I couldn't walk the approx. 1 mile to the station/town I'd have difficulty getting around without it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree a bus link would be a good idea and to be honest I'm surprised there apparently isn't one.

Journey planners say the quickest way of getting there involves using the train to Manchester. If you specify bus only it gives you a route with a change in Altrincham.

One of the downsides to Warrington having a bus company owned by the council is they concentrate mainly on services within the borough, unless there is a contract available for operating outside the borough. Then the other operators want to compete with the council owned operator rather than running different routes.
 

radamfi

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Firstly, car ownership was at it's highest ever level in the early to mid 00s. However, then we had a recession which we are a long way from fully recovering from (whatever George Osborne and David Cameron say) and as a result of that many people have given up car ownership.

Per capita car usage peaked in many developed countries in the early 00s. It is commonly mistaken to be associated with the economic downturn in the late 00s, but the trend started earlier than the downturn, and when economies recovered, per capita car usage did not increase as expected. For many decades previous to this, car usage increased in tandem with economic growth. This phenomenon has been dubbed 'peak car' and academics have been trying to work out theories why this has happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_car

Car use has particularly dropped in the under 30s. Young people are owning fewer car licences, so could be seen to be not even interested in driving. Some people blame youth unemployment but I don't really believe that argument as driving has been expensive for young people for as long as I can remember. Nowadays, parents would be very likely to own cars so driving practice in the family car would be easier compared to, say, 20 years ago. When I was growing up, young people would be desperate to learn to drive from age 17, regardless of wealth. One argument put forward in the above link is as follows:

Cultural shifts especially among young people for whom acquisition of a driving license is now seen less as a key rite of passage into adulthood, and is reflected in recent reductions in the propensity of young people to acquire driving licenses. One report suggests there has been a shift in notions about status: the car is no longer a "big prestige item" as in previous decades. For millennials and digital natives, there is less focus on ownership of things, especially big-ticket items such as cars. There is a report that young people see cars as "unnecessary pricey" appliances.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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But the point above about airport employees is also important. Some airport jobs are pretty low-paid but could represent a step on the employment ladder for people in depressed areas, if only they could get there at a reasonable cost. These people probably couldn't afford to spend several thousand a year running a car (or a second one) and they certainly wouldn't benefit from reserved parking spaces on expensive airport land. So a good public transport link probably makes the difference between a job or not, and it needs to run over long hours because of the times airport jobs tend to start and finish. That's a large chunk of the reason behind the airport Metrolink line taking such an indirect route through some run-down districts.

I am aware that certain prospective employees of companies are asked at interview for a position that requires either night work/work with a 0400 start if they are able to get to the site on time to do their jobs. "Do you have your own transport" is a commonly asked question at such interviews.

The responsibility is laid squarely on the shoulders of the employee. Employers on the whole care not a jot about public transport in terms of social mobility necessity. They just want staff who can be counted upon to turn up in time for work.
 

edwin_m

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I am aware that certain prospective employees of companies are asked at interview for a position that requires either night work/work with a 0400 start if they are able to get to the site on time to do their jobs. "Do you have your own transport" is a commonly asked question at such interviews.

The responsibility is laid squarely on the shoulders of the employee. Employers on the whole care not a jot about public transport in terms of social mobility necessity. They just want staff who can be counted upon to turn up in time for work.

Employers may not care but local authorities may and airports will somtimes fund surface access because of planning conditions or because they consider it to be in their best interests. Hence, in part, Airport Metrolink and also smaller initiatives such as the Nottingham Skylink bus - until the subsidised route through high unemployment areas had to be dropped when Trent Barton introduced a commercial service by a different route.
 

radamfi

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Airports may have difficulty in filling their vacancies unless transport is provided. Non-car owners can often access employment in and around town centres because they are within walking distance. Airports are of course usually beyond normal walking distance, so if they are competing with employers within walking distance then they will be at a disadvantage. Airport workers are also often clustered in particular estates. For example, Gatwick has a lot of staff in the Broadfield and Bewbush areas of Crawley, which are several miles from the airport, but are served by two 24 hour bus services.

Airports also may wish staff to avoid occupying scarce car park space.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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If anyone looks at large centres of employment in the period between the Two World Wars, where employees came from surrounding areas to these centres of employment, note how many of them came to work on bicycles.

A good method of keeping fit and does seem to tick all the "environmentally-friendly" boxes.
 

pemma

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The responsibility is laid squarely on the shoulders of the employee. Employers on the whole care not a jot about public transport in terms of social mobility necessity. They just want staff who can be counted upon to turn up in time for work.

Like I've said before if companies like AstraZeneca, Barclays, Waters and McCanns take an active role in ensuring people can get to their places of work, using public transport why shouldn't the Airport?

Smaller companies may not appear to care about public transport but a number of smaller businesses are members of The Forum of Private Business who state that "Employees must have access to quick and cheap public transport"

If anyone looks at large centres of employment in the period between the Two World Wars, where employees came from surrounding areas to these centres of employment, note how many of them came to work on bicycles.

A good method of keeping fit and does seem to tick all the "environmentally-friendly" boxes.

Having heard of multiple cyclists being hit by 4x4s* on the back lanes of Mobberley, Ashley, Hale and Wilmslow this year, I'm not sure that Airport can argue that cycling is a suitable way of people from Cheshire getting to and from jobs at the Airport. Also remember if someone has to take time off work during their trial period, they won't be paid for it and it could increase the chance of them not being kept on at the end of their trial.

* For some reason Nissan Jukes seem to be the main culprit of should incidents.
 

edwin_m

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If anyone looks at large centres of employment in the period between the Two World Wars, where employees came from surrounding areas to these centres of employment, note how many of them came to work on bicycles.

A good method of keeping fit and does seem to tick all the "environmentally-friendly" boxes.

Airports do sometimes put in some time and money to encourage cycle access - the leaflet linked off East Midlands's web page notes that they offer free cycle training to anyone working on the site.

http://www.eastmidlandsairport.com/emaweb.nsf/Content/Cycle

The equivalent page for Manchester just says they have a few cycle racks.

With road traffic as it is, cycling is only going to be anything other than a small minority mode of transport if we develop a very different attitude in the UK to both the respect for other road users on shared roadspace, and the provision of proper segregated cycle routes where traffic volumes and speeds mean that sharing roadspace would be unsafe. The difference between the 1930s and today is that car ownership and use have risen astronomically.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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2. If I had an accident/injury which meant I couldn't walk the approx. 1 mile to the station/town I'd have difficulty getting around without it.

I am quite sure that a number of taxi companies exist in the area around Knutsford who would take you to a hospital in the circumstances that you describe above. They would call directly at your home address...no need to hobble to the nearest bus stop.
 
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edwin_m

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I am quite sure that a number of taxi companies exist in the area around Knutsford who would take you to a hospital in the circumstances that you describe above. They would call directly at your home address...no need to hobble to the nearest bus stop.

I don't think the issue is how jcollins would get to hospital - more how he or she might get around afterwards if unable to walk.
 

radamfi

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I am quite sure that a number of taxi companies exist in the area around Knutsford who would take you to a hospital in the circumstances that you describe above. They would call directly at your home address...no need to hobble to the nearest bus stop.

Taxis are expensive. If/when driverless taxis come in, that'll be a game changer as I would expect them to be cheaper than driving your own car, and also cheaper than bus fares.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I don't think the issue is how jcollins would get to hospital - more how he or she might get around afterwards if unable to walk.

Would an ambulance possibly be of assistance, if available, in a case like that. We need to establish how such matters are addressed by the relevant health authority.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Taxis are expensive. If/when driverless taxis come in, that'll be a game changer as I would expect them to be cheaper than driving your own car, and also cheaper than bus fares.

I was addressing a situation that had been previously described when I made my posting.

If, however, one chooses to let their left-wing political beliefs over-ride the need to use a taxi to access an urgent need to go to hospital, then it does not take much cognitive thought on how matters may well have a very sad ending to a story of medical emergency.
 
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