Manchester - Brighton.

[fireincairo]

I'm going down to Brighton for a friends birthday on the 6th of February and returning on the 7th. I've found cheap enough trains, £13 single on the way down and £9 on the way back.

However these require you going to London Bridge and catching a FCC train to Brighton. Anything routed through Victoria is £27.

I'm not really complaining as £13 is pretty cheap (i'm using a 16-25 railcard) from Manchester to Brighton, I just don't understand how it costs £14 more to use a Southern service when the fastest service they offer it 16 minutes quicker than an FCC connection?

Also as these are advance tickets, do I HAVE to board at Manchester Piccadilly? Or could I get on at Stockport (all Virgin Trains stop there) as it's a tad closer to my house.

Thanks!

 

[Pumbaa]

You'll have to board at Man. As you already know the ticketing conditions from your post, I'll just say Stockport staff will not let you on the platform as it will be invalid.

 

[CosherB]

Your Brighton train will route through St Pancras. Easy transfer to there from Euston (short walk)! Can you pick it up there? Much easier than trekkng across to Victoria.

 

[SWT Driver]

Have you considered BTN-GTW-RDG-MAN?

Otherwise known as Brighton-Gatwick Apt-Reading-Manchester, two cross platform changes & NO underground.

 

[yorkie]

Book from Stockport if that's more convenient. The price is surely the same? You may even get a ticket from somewhere like Levenshulme at the same price.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Southern have some 'advance' fares on their services to Brighton. The reservation systems will therefore look for a quota on those trains. If there are no 'advance' fares left for that part of the journey, it will not produce an 'Advance' fare for the whole journey.

The good news is that Manchester/Stockport to Brighton 'Advance' fares are routed '+connections', meaning you can use any 'reasonable' connection for an unreserved portion of the journey. Thus, if you book to travel on FCC via London Bridge, you can use Southern from Victoria instead.

 

[paul1609]

Im not entirely sure that is correct advice.
Many Victoria to Brighton Services are reservable and have an advance quota in their own right. The tickets may be unrestricted via St Pancras but not necessarily via Victoria where a cross London Advance may well be "seek assistance" at the barriers.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think there can possibly be any grounds for saying that these tickets are limited to any companies trains or any specific trains. They are routed "and connections". The conditions of Advance ticket say it is valid with a "valid travel itinerary" so the solution is to get NRES to supply a valid itinerary with the trains that you want.

 

[paul1609]

I think thats the crux of the matter an advance ticket may have unlimited availability on connections on the route shown on the itinerary. i don't think it necessarily has availability on all the routes available on an any permitted ticket.
NRES wont offer an itinerary via Victoria if there's not advance quota left on Southern.
it may offer a itinerary via Kenny O or london bridge but that doesnt mean your advance ticket is valid via Victoria.

 

[devon_metro]

Have you considered BTN-GTW-RDG-MAN?

Otherwise known as Brighton-Gatwick Apt-Reading-Manchester, two cross platform changes & NO underground.

Good luck getting Advance tickets on Cross Country, not to mention having to sit on a 166 for what seems like hours.

 

[mumrar]

Good luck getting Advance tickets on Cross Country

This forum, particularly the fares advice, seems to be turning into an XC beating stick. I examine many many Advance tickets on XC services everyday, on a varying array of services too. Whilst people bemoan the lack of seats, they also say there aren't enough Advance tickets. Do we want XC to make the entire train reservable on Advance and leave people who've paid 5 times the price standing? When someone asks for fare advice, they don't want to hear your personal preferences for travelling with whoever, they want a balanced and correct selection of options.

 

[John @ home]

I think thats the crux of the matter an advance ticket may have unlimited availability on connections on the route shown on the itinerary. i don't think it necessarily has availability on all the routes available on an any permitted ticket.
NRES wont offer an itinerary via Victoria if there's not advance quota left on Southern.

My opinion is that this problem arises because of the way in which Southern have added a quota system on unreservable trains (with the replacement for the reservation voucher stating Coach * Seat **). It's that action which was not contemplated by the authors of the National Conditions of Carriage, and which causes the NCoC and the Conditions for Advance tickets to have to be interpreted, rather than read as plain English.

We now have the statement that a passenger may travel on connecting trains in accordance with a valid travel itinerary. But that phrase is not defined. The ticket purchaser is not told that any itinerary for any non-reservable train is important, or even significant. If the purchaser is not the traveller, the ticket purchaser is not told, or even encouraged, to give any itinerary they may have to the traveller. If the traveller wants to check the valid ways to travel for the non-reservable part of their journey, the only authoritative information in the public domain is the National Routeing Guide.

My view, therefore, is that currently Advance tickets are indeed valid by any permitted route for any non-reservable portion of their journey and that TOCs would need to make substantial changes to their ticket booking and issuing systems if they wanted to introduce restrictions.

This opens up another question. Which permitted route is relevant? For example, next month I will use an Advance single London - Leeds route EC & connections. The reserved part is London - Doncaster. Which journey do I use when checking in the Routeing Guide for permitted routes for the Doncaster - Leeds part of the journey. Is it London - Leeds, in which case I am allowed to go via York? Or is it Doncaster - Leeds, then I'm not?

 

[devon_metro]

This forum, particularly the fares advice, seems to be turning into an XC beating stick. I examine many many Advance tickets on XC services everyday, on a varying array of services too. Whilst people bemoan the lack of seats, they also say there aren't enough Advance tickets. Do we want XC to make the entire train reservable on Advance and leave people who've paid 5 times the price standing? When someone asks for fare advice, they don't want to hear your personal preferences for travelling with whoever, they want a balanced and correct selection of options.

Its all very well saying that but if I recommended using Cross Country based on cost I'd be lying.

They operate 4/5 car trains hourly from Reading to Manchester; thus the chances of getting a reasonably priced ticket compared to via Virgin is much lower.

Perhaps I'm unlucky however whenever I've needed to use a Cross Country route I will use another as I simply am unable to make it feasible to travel with them. Concluding; as the OP has a 16-25rc they are likely to prefer to pay less, tgerefore my statement was not wholey unreasonable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Im not entirely sure that is correct advice.
Many Victoria to Brighton Services are reservable and have an advance quota in their own right....

Not important, the only way a TOC could argue that is if they had defined "an appropriate connecting train" and "a valid travel itinerary" before the sale of the ticket, so far they have done neither and the Southern train has to be an appropriate connecting service on a valid travel itinerary to be reserved in the first place!

....The tickets may be unrestricted via St Pancras but not necessarily via Victoria where a cross London Advance may well be "seek assistance" at the barriers.

The ticket that goes through the barrier is indentical, regardless of route taken from London. Would it be different if, when booking the ticket, I specified a change of trains at Selhurst? Now I am on a valid route which is the same route as the direct Southern service, but I still have no reservation for the part of the journey from London. My ticket is still routed 'VWC and connections' so I can use 'any appropriate connecting service', there is no restriction on me actually changing trains at Selhurst in this case.

 

[paul1609]

You'll notice that I qualified my post with "not entirely sure" and "may" and i stand by that. If you buy advance tickets on the internet they are sold with much stronger conditions than you are quoting. These are the terms of the virgin website who own the flow the OP was discussing, i think all of the TOCs internet sites are the same:

"ADVANCE SINGLE
TICKET TYPE
ADVANCE

DESCRIPTION
Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.

VALIDITY
You must travel on the date, time and trains specified. You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

There is as you can see no mention of the tickets being available on any connecting train and those conditions would seem to me to specifically ban changing at an alternative station.

My point about the barriers at Victoria is that they are specifically set not to accept some tickets than may be invalid and to refer the user to the staff. This includes off peak tickets before about 9.45 although many may be valid before that time for travel to say wcml destinations with a railcard.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You'll notice that I qualified my post with "not entirely sure" and "may" and i stand by that....

My last post may have come across a bit heavy handed, it wasn't intended that way.

....If you buy advance tickets on the internet they are sold with much stronger conditions than you are quoting. These are the terms of the virgin website who own the flow the OP was discussing, i think all of the TOCs internet sites are the same:

"ADVANCE SINGLE
TICKET TYPE
ADVANCE

DESCRIPTION
Non-refundable ticket, only valid for the date, time and trains specified.

VALIDITY
You must travel on the date, time and trains specified. You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

There is as you can see no mention of the tickets being available on any connecting train and those conditions would seem to me to specifically ban changing at an alternative station....

I suspect they are just using a standard blurb rather than tryig to confuse joe public with 'if the ticket says this and that...'. I also think they see this as an easment more than a restriction and so I don't think they have to advertise it.

....My point about the barriers at Victoria is that they are specifically set not to accept some tickets than may be invalid and to refer the user to the staff. This includes off peak tickets before about 9.45 although many may be valid before that time for travel to say wcml destinations with a railcard.

That may be true (I really couldn't say) but in anycase the barrier staff couldn't refuse access to the platforms for the connecting service in this case, reservable or otherwise.