Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[LDECRexile]

In addition to a plenty of the infrastructure and a number of trains using it, I believe LDECRexile managed to take a photo of a Starmill yesterday

I charge extra for portraits.....

 

[AM9]

I went from Lime St to Roby and Huyton and back to day, sampling and viewing the fourth track.

Photos in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

As an aside, I see that the combined NW Combined Volumes now contain over 10,000 photos and films. Warm thanks to all contributors.

Well it's thanks to you for managing the whole photo thing. It's a good record of the Chat Moss's progress from a neglected line running a random mix of DMUs to a business-like electric railway capable of carrying regional and commuter traffic in the future and at sensible speeds. I wonder how long the CLC will continue ambling along before it gets similar treatment.

 

[Senex]

Well it's thanks to you for managing the whole photo thing. It's a good record of the Chat Moss's progress from a neglected line running a random mix of DMUs to a business-like electric railway capable of carrying regional and commuter traffic in the future and at sensible speeds. I wonder how long the CLC will continue ambling along before it gets similar treatment.

If you call the speeds at the Manchester end sensible speeds for a modern, main-line, inter-city railway.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well it's thanks to you for managing the whole photo thing. It's a good record of the Chat Moss's progress from a neglected line running a random mix of DMUs to a business-like electric railway capable of carrying regional and commuter traffic in the future and at sensible speeds. I wonder how long the CLC will continue ambling along before it gets similar treatment.

Hear, hear. In the heady days of 2012-2016 pre-Grayling , I would have said the CLC was high on the priority list for the treatment.

 

[AM9]

If you call the speeds at the Manchester end sensible speeds for a modern, main-line, inter-city railway.

Just because it goes between two stations in different cities doesn't make it an 'inter-city' railway. Thanks to the electrification, it's speeds are as fast as the northern half of the Brighton Main Line, the WAML to Cambridge and much of the GEML to Chelmsford. None of which are real 'inter-city' journeys either.
LDECR's picture album shows a railway, part 4 tracked and reasonably capable of carrying an intensive electric service at levels that certainly weren't possible just 3 years ago.

 

[Senex]

Just because it goes between two stations in different cities doesn't make it an 'inter-city' railway. Thanks to the electrification, it's speeds are as fast as the northern half of the Brighton Main Line, the WAML to Cambridge and much of the GEML to Chelmsford. None of which are real 'inter-city' journeys either.
LDECR's picture album shows a railway, part 4 tracked and reasonably capable of carrying an intensive electric service at levels that certainly weren't possible just 3 years ago.

Connecting two of the largest cities in the United Kingdom does for me make it an inter-city route. As for the routes you mentionm the Brighton line from Croydon into Victoria is a pretty lousy cobbled-together route with no pretensions to speed at all, and the same is true of the southern bit of the WAML (and the rest was never laid out fo rspeed), whilst the GE main line was long ago ruined as a high-speed railway in the interest of serving the ever-growing hordes of commuters. They're not comparable with the well laid-out L&M — and whilst the L&M might have some four-tracking at the Liverpool end, it's lost all that it had at the Manchester end.

 

[childwallblues]

Mainly due to Motorways.

 

[AM9]

As far as I'm concerned, it's just a 30mile long line linking two conurbations. Hardly real inter-city but perfectly suitable for getting commuters to and from the Lancashire suburban towns into either Manchester or Liverpool employment areas. The difference in actual journey times with it's linespeed maximum (90mph I believe) and the lines that I mentioned 80-100mph) is not worth worrying about. The approaches to Manchester Victoria* or Liverpool Lime St are not much different to those of Liverpool St. or London Bridge and better than Victoria, so I stand by what I said which if you read again compares it to 3 years ago.
*I would expect the line from Eccles, past Salford Central to Victoria to further improve when the Bolton Line is electric and most services are accelerated. At the moment, the 319s have a rather leisurely time running to the DMU timings.

 

[Olaf]

Connecting two of the largest cities in the United Kingdom does for me make it an inter-city route. ...

By the same measure, that would make the District and several other underground lines Inter-City.

 

[urbophile]

As far as I'm concerned, it's just a 30mile long line linking two conurbations. Hardly real inter-city but perfectly suitable for getting commuters to and from the Lancashire suburban towns into either Manchester or Liverpool employment areas. The difference in actual journey times with it's linespeed maximum (90mph I believe) and the lines that I mentioned 80-100mph) is not worth worrying about. The approaches to Manchester Victoria* or Liverpool Lime St are not much different to those of Liverpool St. or London Bridge and better than Victoria, so I stand by what I said which if you read again compares it to 3 years ago.
*I would expect the line from Eccles, past Salford Central to Victoria to further improve when the Bolton Line is electric and most services are accelerated. At the moment, the 319s have a rather leisurely time running to the DMU timings.

Although it serves Liverpool quite well as a commuter line, east of Newton le Willows there are only two stations before Manchester, Patricroft and Eccles (the latter better served by Metrolink). It would be far better to electrify the CLC line and provide an improved service from the many stations between Warrington and Piccadilly.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Although it serves Liverpool quite well as a commuter line, east of Newton le Willows there are only two stations before Manchester, Patricroft and Eccles (the latter better served by Metrolink). It would be far better to electrify the CLC line and provide an improved service from the many stations between Warrington and Piccadilly.

I agree -but not sure it will happen in the near future. It was number 2 priority IIRC in the Northern Sparks report by an all party committee

 

[AM9]

Although it serves Liverpool quite well as a commuter line, east of Newton le Willows there are only two stations before Manchester, Patricroft and Eccles (the latter better served by Metrolink). It would be far better to electrify the CLC line and provide an improved service from the many stations between Warrington and Piccadilly.

Rather than 'far better' it should be 'as well'. I've travelled from Lime st., to Piccadilly in an EMT 158 and it was a real drag, persumably we were tailing a crawling 150, 142 or 150 stopper. If it was electrified, at least the better acceleration would enable a higher average speed. But I can't see where there is a burning need for additional stops on the Chat Moss route entering the Manchester suburbs. Not far west of Patricroft is open countryside and any demand for travel from east of Eccles (Weaste maybe), would be better served by Metrolink line E. Were there ever any stations between Eccles and Castlefield?

 

[DJH1971]

The CLC needs to be wired, sooner or later

 

[LDECRexile]

Rather than 'far better' it should be 'as well'. I've travelled from Lime st., to Piccadilly in an EMT 158 and it was a real drag, persumably we were tailing a crawling 150, 142 or 150 stopper. If it was electrified, at least the better acceleration would enable a higher average speed. But I can't see where there is a burning need for additional stops on the Chat Moss route entering the Manchester suburbs. Not far west of Patricroft is open countryside and any demand for travel from east of Eccles (Weaste maybe), would be better served by Metrolink line E. Were there ever any stations between Eccles and Castlefield?

Hello AM, good to hear your dulcet tones, so to speak.

There used to be umpteen stations in the area, the route diagram with this gives an idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaste_railway_station

It always seems to me that the secret of speed is not being held up (gosh, what insight I hear you exclaim), eg by slower trains, sharp bends, steep hills, busy junctions etc etc. This involves segregation (loops, fourth tracks, HS2 etc) and ironing out bends etc. Making trains with better acceleration and higher top speeds helps, but is less effective.

Kind regards

D

 

[childwallblues]

Big problem is the lack of passing loops - none between Liverpool South Parkway and Manchester Oxford Road whilst the other way just the one between Irlam and Glazebrook Junction.
On Tuesday I was on the 0703 EMT from Widnes to Sheffield. The preceeding 0643 all stations stopper to Manchester Oxford (2 car 156452) was running seven minutes late and we caught it up at Flixton.

 

[childwallblues]

Rather than 'far better' it should be 'as well'. I've travelled from Lime st., to Piccadilly in an EMT 158 and it was a real drag, persumably we were tailing a crawling 150, 142 or 150 stopper. If it was electrified, at least the better acceleration would enable a higher average speed. But I can't see where there is a burning need for additional stops on the Chat Moss route entering the Manchester suburbs. Not far west of Patricroft is open countryside and any demand for travel from east of Eccles (Weaste maybe), would be better served by Metrolink line E. Were there ever any stations between Eccles and Castlefield?

There have been many stations on the line between Newton-le-Willows and Manchester since the line opened in 1830. As you say just Patricroft and Eccles survive but there have been four stations east of Eccles at various times. These were Weaste, Seedley, Cross Lane and Ordsall Lane.

 

[LDECRexile]

Phil Wieland has kindly sent shots of Lime St, Huyton and St Helens Jct.

I've added them to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157650238941151

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

Phil has now sent over 200 photos for us all to study and enjoy. This is on top of his prime contribution - the remarkable http://www.nw-sparks.co.uk/

Thank you Phil

 

[Bevan Price]

Although it serves Liverpool quite well as a commuter line, east of Newton le Willows there are only two stations before Manchester, Patricroft and Eccles (the latter better served by Metrolink). It would be far better to electrify the CLC line and provide an improved service from the many stations between Warrington and Piccadilly.

The problem with Metrolink is that it takes at least 25 minutes to get from Eccles to central Manchester - longer if you are routed via Media City. The train can get there in 7 to 8 minutes. But yes - I agree the CLC route should also be electrified.

 

[Olaf]

The Liverpool to Manchester corridor is a key concern of the NPR. It is also, at the last announcement, being reviewed for service upgrades under the Digital program. There should be an initial announcement before the end of the year.

 

[urbophile]

The problem with Metrolink is that it takes at least 25 minutes to get from Eccles to central Manchester - longer if you are routed via Media City. The train can get there in 7 to 8 minutes. But yes - I agree the CLC route should also be electrified.

Yes but the trams are every few minutes. How long do you have to wait for a train?

 

[AM9]

Yes but the trams are every few minutes. How long do you have to wait for a train?

Or more to the point, is there enough capacity on the approaches to manchester to service more stoppers to give a significant improvement over the current 30-60 minute peak intervals. Without that there's no point in opening more stations along the Chat Moss line to develop metro services into central Manchester areas.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bevan Price said: ↑
The problem with Metrolink is that it takes at least 25 minutes to get from Eccles to central Manchester - longer if you are routed via Media City. The train can get there in 7 to 8 minutes. But yes - I agree the CLC route should also be electrified.

If it's actually Victoria you want, then getting there from Eccles by Merolink (including a change of tram at St Peter's Square, or wherever) is going to take at least half an hour.

Yes but the trams are every few minutes.

No-one in their right mind is going to spend half-an-hour on a tram instead of 7/8 minutes on a train (unless there's no train available, or you've just missed it).

How long do you have to wait for a train?

Hardly any time at all, if you've already tracked it on RTT.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I had a look at the new setup at Huyton today.
I wondered how they would fit in a 4th track through Huyton Jn, and the answer is they haven't.
There are still only 3 tracks through the junction.
It means you can't path a Down Wigan and Up Chat Moss through the junction at the same time.
Have I got that right?
Roby Jn is signed for 70mph in the Up Slow direction (but with a 50mph TSR for now).

 

[nw-sparks]

It means you can't path a Down Wigan and Up Chat Moss through the junction at the same time.
Have I got that right?

Since they need to cross each other, I should hope so!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Since they need to cross each other, I should hope so!

You can have one off Huyton to St Helens and one from Manchester to Liverpool, or parallel moves to and from either route, just like it was. The junction layout is more to provide slow lines to allow stoppers to be overtaken; there could have been a four-track layout at Huyton Junction but the benefits are limited (There will still be a crossing move somewhere, without a flyover), the costs were very high (Telephone exchange) and the risk of protracted TWAO for the land could have jeopardised getting the third track in for 2016 (which was the first pressing milestone).

 

[urbophile]

No-one in their right mind is going to spend half-an-hour on a tram instead of 7/8 minutes on a train (unless there's no train available, or you've just missed it).



Hardly any time at all, if you've already tracked it on RTT.

According to the National Train Enquiries website, trains are no more frequent than every hour. What sort of service is that for a metropolitan area?

 

[Bovverboy]

According to the National Train Enquiries website, trains are no more frequent than every hour. What sort of service is that for a metropolitan area?

When the Chat Moss line trains are running normally (which they're not at the moment) there are an additional six trains per day calling at Eccles (Mondays to Saturdays), these run in the morning/afternoon peak periods. Two of these effectively increase the service between Eccles and Manchester Victoria to 2 tph, if only briefly. They are 0742 from Liverpool Lime Street, and 1738 from Manchester Victoria. The other four are useful, but not critical, they are effectively extensions of Liverpool to/from Newton-le-Willows trains.
If a station in a metropolitan area can't support at least two tph, do you feel it should be closed?

 

[urbophile]

If a station in a metropolitan area can't support at least two tph, do you feel it should be closed?

I don't know the area particularly well, but it seems to me that there are enough people in Eccles (and the catchment area of its station) to easily support a frequent commuter service of at least 4tph, in addition to Metrolink. If the infrastructure can't support that I wonder what it says about investment in 'the Northern Powerhouse'?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know the area particularly well, but it seems to me that there are enough people in Eccles (and the catchment area of its station) to easily support a frequent commuter service of at least 4tph, in addition to Metrolink. If the infrastructure can't support that I wonder what it says about investment in 'the Northern Powerhouse'?

It can support 4tph, but once you have 4tph stoppers you have a carbon copy of the CLC route with no capacity for more fast trains.
It's just another double track line with no overtaking capability.
There is also very little demand on this route for local trains westwards from Eccles.
Signalling was partially upgraded for electrification, but it still has long-ish signal sections, multiple control areas and no bi-di west of Eccles.
We are also waiting for the Port Salford freight branch development, which could change the train mix significantly.

 

[nw-sparks]

Since 12:00 today every Up train at Huyton has used the Up Slow. Anyone know why?