There seems to be many signal issues on this part of the metro. Today they are running a limited service and a couple of weeks ago there were huge delays because of a signal near Deansgate Signal Box. Is it always the same signal that is cocking up?
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Manchester Metrolink - Altrincham Line.
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There’s a few signalling issues in the Timperley area that have rendered Timperley siding OOU.
The combination of that and an issue on the Network Rail section between Timperley and Altrincham has resulted in the reduced service.
There was an issue with the same NR signal a few weeks ago, but I’m unsure if it’s the same issue. Unfortunately it’s a case of waiting for Network Rail to fix it.
The combination of that and an issue on the Network Rail section between Timperley and Altrincham has resulted in the reduced service.
There was an issue with the same NR signal a few weeks ago, but I’m unsure if it’s the same issue. Unfortunately it’s a case of waiting for Network Rail to fix it.
sjm77
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Actually the reduced service has been in place since Friday (11th June). Today was the 6th day of the reduced daytime frequency!
Trams ran every 20 mins all day with additional bus every 12mins Altrincham - Trafford Bar calling at all stops - 0700 - 1900 from Monday 14th until around 1440 on Thursday when trams reverted to every 10mins daytime - every 20 mins evenings
It appears the fire in a inspection chamber on Balloon Street, Manchester, on the previous Wednesday caused problems for Metrolink communicating with Network Rail for the single line after Timperley
From the Thursday after the fire, apparently Network Rail signallers at Deansgate Lane box could only run one tram in section after Timperley
The turnback siding on the Metrolink side is out of use due to some "improvements" to replace the signals with continuing the line of sight have failed.
The signallers at Deansgate Lane box work "hour about" to cope with (pre-covid) an hour of trams every 6 minutes in each direction on a single line over two level crossings, plus on the other single line, hourly DMU to Chester each way plus biomass freight, GM bin waste trains and I think some stone trains?
It appears the fire in a inspection chamber on Balloon Street, Manchester, on the previous Wednesday caused problems for Metrolink communicating with Network Rail for the single line after Timperley
From the Thursday after the fire, apparently Network Rail signallers at Deansgate Lane box could only run one tram in section after Timperley
The turnback siding on the Metrolink side is out of use due to some "improvements" to replace the signals with continuing the line of sight have failed.
The signallers at Deansgate Lane box work "hour about" to cope with (pre-covid) an hour of trams every 6 minutes in each direction on a single line over two level crossings, plus on the other single line, hourly DMU to Chester each way plus biomass freight, GM bin waste trains and I think some stone trains?
Journeyman
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How does the signalling work on the Altrincham line again? I read about it ages ago but I've forgotten. I know the Metrolink fixed 2-aspect signals have gone now, but what's the interaction with Network Rail again? Is it something to do with the level crossing?
No, south of Timperley retains the 2-aspect block signalling for the time being, signalled from Deansgate Junction NR signal box.
It's not clear (to me at least) what the eventual plan is for line of sight signalling on the section.
Mcr Warrior
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Indeed, how exactly might "line of sight" signalling work on a section of bi-directional single track through Navigation Road Metrolink station which is on a slight curve and passing through two (fairly busy) level crossings?
I suppose you would move the crossing barriers to a position between the tramline and the heavy rail line and then add a yellow hatched box where the tramline crosses the carriageway.Indeed, how exactly might "line of sight" signalling work on a section of bi-directional single track through Navigation Road Metrolink station which is on a slight curve and passing through two (fairly busy) level crossings?
You would still need signals to protect the single line section - presumably of the diagram 3013 variety.
Indeed, how exactly might "line of sight" signalling work on a section of bi-directional single track through Navigation Road Metrolink station which is on a slight curve and passing through two (fairly busy) level crossings?
Line of sight on single lines is easy - each end is protected by a standard tram signal - plenty of examples around the UK.
As for the level crossings, the setup would have to be similar to the Hucknall route in Nottingham, although the current distance separation between light and heavy rail isn’t as great at Navvy Rd as it is in Nottingham, which might be the challenge.
Great minds think alike, as they say
sjm77
Member
There is absolutely no room between the tracks for a Basford-style solution!
The question was about how one would do it and I suggested a general approach.
We are talking here about some not insignificant resignalling efforts so no doubt this would have to be factored in. There is some space available to realign track, I suppose, but it’s very tight.
How often is the Timeprley siding used?
I don't recall ever seeing a tram with "Timperley" as a destination before
It does happen occasionally to turn a late running tram back short of the single line, or if NR are doing work on their section.
The purpose of the siding was to give Metrolink some "protection" against problems on the BR/NR-controlled section.
sjm77
Member
It does happen, as Ianno87 says, however the decision might only be taken a few minutes before arrival into Timperley so the tram would run through the city centre displaying "Altrincham".
It did happen quite frequently until ~2 years ago when turnaround times at Alty were increased from (I think) 4 minutes to 10 minutes.
Mcr Warrior
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What should then happen is that passengers for Navigation Road/Altrincham who are turfed off a late running tram at Timperley, should then be picked up by another Altrincham-bound tram which is (hopefully) following more-or-less immediately behind the first one.
Of course, when the Altrincham Metrolink line goes completely up the spout, the usual advice is invariably to go get the bus on the main road running parallel to the tram line.
Of course, when the Altrincham Metrolink line goes completely up the spout, the usual advice is invariably to go get the bus on the main road running parallel to the tram line.
I believe there is one near Sale, although I don’t think it is in anything like a use-able state!
On Nottingham's network, Lincoln Street LC has the trams passing outside the barriers, which obviously needs greater separation between the two. Incidentally, the operation of the level crossing is still interlinked with the tram system (and the crossroads immediately adjacent on the other side) - the barriers won't raise if there's a tram signalled over the road.
Further north, though, the trams pass inside the barriers at Bulwell Forest. As I understand it, the controlling signal box effectively has a slot on the tram signals (which are of the standard tramway type) rather than signalling the trams directly as Deansgate Jn do, so the signallers workload is much reduced. They also share the crossing equipment and indications at Brickyard Lane ABCL. Seems comparable to Metrolink in terms of the separation (or lack of) required for such an arrangement.
It’s Old Trafford. There’s a range of turnback moves available using the depot entries, and you can go across from the outbound line to the inbound platform at Old Trafford itself (if you’re coming from Trafford Bar).
Sale was installed but never commissioned.
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Regarding the Network Rail section between Timperley and Altrincham, we’ve been told that this will never be converted to LoS operation, so any discussion as to how you’d do it is somewhat moot. It doesn’t need to be done. Besides, tram train to Hale is coming so that goes some way to solving the ‘problems’ down there.
It will need to be done when the ATS system still fitted to certain trams solely for this section becomes obsolete.
It’s already obsolete. We’re only keeping the ‘factory fit’ ATS kit, the stuff pilfered from T68s is steadily going. Plenty of spares available, therefore no rush.
Tram-train to Hale is in the 5 year plan published by TfGM last year. Altrincham will have to be extensively remodelled to accommodate this so it would make sense to fit TPWS and run the Alti line as a tram-train service. Deansgate Junction box is to lose its NX panel at some point in the near future in favour of a VDU based system for this reason.
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LOL The Irony
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This would be a good idea, however, Tram-Trains to Hale will be a pipe dream unless the freight trains magically disappear. I was thinking recently about changing the signaling on the line actually, so you beat me to it.
I can also attest to the ride quality issues on the ex-BR lines and I assumed that's why the speed restrictions were put in place. Of course it's mostly due to old track.
Divert the Northwich trains through a new chord onto HS2 (either north of Ashley, or just parliamentary the station)
Single track from Nav Road to Hale for freight only, or put the trams on street through Altrincham up Stamford New Road and Ashley Road and then up Hale Road to join the HS2 station
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
This sounds like a solution looking for a problem. And a complicated solution at that.
Tell TfGM that, it’s in their plan and they seem quite committed to it!
LOL The Irony
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They can jump up and down like a pogo stick until they collapse from exhaustion, if Network Rail say no, Network Rail say no and TfGM can't do anything about it. And Network Rail have already turned down the 2nd tph about 3 times now, so you can probably guess their answer to TfGM wanting to run what I guess will be a tram every 12 minutes in each direction.
daodao
Established Member
Are you being serious? It is a good 4 miles from Altrincham station via Hale Road to the site of the proposed HS2 station, and some parts of this route are quite narrow, including Stamford New Road, Ashley Road, the eastern end of Hale Road and the section through the centre of Hale Barns adjacent to Booths supermarket. I really don't think there is much demand for trams to run south of Altrincham station, but they do need to sort out the signalling issues between Timperley and Altrincham.
If there’s one thing I’ve learnt over the years it’s to never underestimate TfGM. They have a habit of getting what they want.
daodao
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However, unlike other recent schemes, the tram-train proposals require TfGM to deal with Network Rail, who are no pushover. If the tram-train proposals were sensible, the case would be easier to make, but the proposed tram-train service to Hale adds little benefit at the expense of a lot of complication. Given the current issues with Metrolink and Network Rail operating side-by-side between Deansgate Junction and Altrincham, greater integration is likely to exacerbate problems.
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