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Manchester Piccadilly G4S and their interpretation of the NRCoC

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Lampshade

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Evenin' all :)

A few weeks ago I was travelling from an unstaffed station in south Manchester to Preston. There are no TVMs there so I boarded the train (1630) with the intention of catching the 1654 Northern service onwards.

On the way into Piccadilly, the Guard didn't make an appearance, so my interpretation of the NRCoC is that if there are no ticket issuing facilities available at the station at which you began your journey then the full range of tickets can be bought on board or at an interchange point, although this does not mean risking missing a connection (which was above the minimum connection time at MAN).

As it stood, we arrived two minutes late (into platform 9, main shed) and a large number of passengers disembarked without tickets. As is normal for that time, G4S were barriering platforms 8 and 9 and so a large queue formed. As I had mere minutes to catch my connection I spoke to one of the G4S staff and asked, politely, if I could pay on board my onward connection:

Me: I have a connection to catch, could I possibly go through and pay on board?
G4S: No! Join the back of the queue, you've committed fraud (:shock:)
Me: The National Conditions of Carriage...
G4S ...say you're committing fraud as you haven't paid
Me: No it doesn't, it says nothing of the sort
G4S: Right, if that's how you want to play it (then attempts to summon a passing BTP Officer)
Me: OK, fine, fine

So I joined the back of the queue and bought a ticket, making my connection by 10/15 seconds at most. As it turned out, no ticket check took place between Piccadilly and Preston, so I would have had to pay at Preston. Personally, I think the G4S staff member knew I was right so tried to silence me the only way a 'jobsworth' knows how.

My question is: was my interpretation of the NRCoC correct? I'd like to hear especially from any members in revenue (Ferret, I'm looking at you here) :)

Cheers
 
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yorkie

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Having already been made aware of this situation, you know my views, I had better be careful what I say on this forum, other than to say that the 'honourable' 'gentleman' is 'incorrect' and is in need of 'advice and additional training' and also a lesson in providing good quality customer service.

It would also be interesting if they caused a delay that resulted in a claim under Delay Repay.
 

table38

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It got so bad for me at one time I started using Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly, as they consistently refused to sell me the right ticket. Its not much fun arguing, with a queue of impatient people building up behind you.

I wrote and complained but Northern evidently didn't think it worthy of a response :(
 

313103

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This is what happens when pay a secruity Guard company to do proper railway work, all in the name of saving money! No proper training and everyone who has not got a ticket is automatically presumed to have committed fraud.

You pay peanuts, you get................ that is the way it is.
 

Dolive22

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Next time let the get the BTP. They presumably know the NRCoC and will have a word with the security guard.

Even if you're wrong it's not like you run off or anything, no reason for BTP to bother with it.

Incidentally, as contract security they must have a licence and display it. If they don't, it's a criminal offence and you should report them to BTP. The only exception is where they have something called an LDN, which they must have with them. The only dispensations from having to display the licence is an LDN (which means their licence is being renewed) or a dispensation for those who must not be identifiable as security such a store detectives and bodyguards.
 

Ferret

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Evenin' all :)

A few weeks ago I was travelling from an unstaffed station in south Manchester to Preston. There are no TVMs there so I boarded the train (1630) with the intention of catching the 1654 Northern service onwards.

On the way into Piccadilly, the Guard didn't make an appearance, so my interpretation of the NRCoC is that if there are no ticket issuing facilities available at the station at which you began your journey then the full range of tickets can be bought on board or at an interchange point, although this does not mean risking missing a connection (which was above the minimum connection time at MAN).

As it stood, we arrived two minutes late (into platform 9, main shed) and a large number of passengers disembarked without tickets. As is normal for that time, G4S were barriering platforms 8 and 9 and so a large queue formed. As I had mere minutes to catch my connection I spoke to one of the G4S staff and asked, politely, if I could pay on board my onward connection:

Me: I have a connection to catch, could I possibly go through and pay on board?
G4S: No! Join the back of the queue, you've committed fraud (:shock:)
Me: The National Conditions of Carriage...
G4S ...say you're committing fraud as you haven't paid
Me: No it doesn't, it says nothing of the sort
G4S: Right, if that's how you want to play it (then attempts to summon a passing BTP Officer)
Me: OK, fine, fine

So I joined the back of the queue and bought a ticket, making my connection by 10/15 seconds at most. As it turned out, no ticket check took place between Piccadilly and Preston, so I would have had to pay at Preston. Personally, I think the G4S staff member knew I was right so tried to silence me the only way a 'jobsworth' knows how.

My question is: was my interpretation of the NRCoC correct? I'd like to hear especially from any members in revenue (Ferret, I'm looking at you here) :)

Cheers

Well, if you've travelled from an unstaffed station, in what way have you committed fraud?! If the Guard hasn't been through or hasn't reached you, you haven't had chance to pay yet! At no stage does it say in the NRCoC that you're required to delay your onward journey in order to pay, so as far as I'm concerned you should be allowed to pay on board the next train. However, nowhere does it say this explicitly so we have ourselves a horrible grey area. My personal opinion is that we'll never get explicit clarification in any future re-issues of the NRCoC because to do so would lead to the more unscrupulous people out there using it as a faredodgers charter.
 

gnolife

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if you were traveling on to preston, then you could have just gone up the stairs at the other end of platform 9 to get to 13/14, and theres ticket machines up there... i do that quite a lot to avoid geting into long discussions with security on Platform 2/3 :D
 

Tom B

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Surely TOCs employing prats who don't know the NRCOC is something which the DfT? should be shouting loudly about - there's little point in having Conditions of Carriage if the staff are selective as to what they enforce.

The point about being delayed by staff and missing a train is an interesting one - I'd hope that, given it's a failure on the part of the TOC, they'd be putting you on the next train with an apology and a delay-repay form, or calling the taxi firm.

The calibre of security fatblokes is generally dire - their 'licenses' apparently require a 5-minute multiple choice questionnaire and a CRB check to obtain. If, as here, they appear to have a poor knowledge of the ticketing rules, why on earth are they checking tickets?!
 

185

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If Merseyside can specify proper booking offices, staffed at all times, then why can't GMPTE and West Yorks PTE?

The PTEs are utterly stupid and this situation wouldn't occur if some (even major) stations weren't left unstaffed. The G4S men could be brought in-house and properly employed to man booking offices. They are the last contractor left standing after Northern did the decent, honorable thing and brought most staff in house ditching ISS, Carlisle et al.
 

Dolive22

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A licence certainly isn't a guarantee of quality. They are also meant to have attended all three days of the course. But still you have to find a good firm. For example, I'm involved with live music and there are only two firms of bouncers I would use.
 

RPI

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There seems a lot of discontent with these G4S staff on many forums! Although the OP is right in this instance the OP could hve sought out the guard on the first train which would have removed the need for any conflict and would have been sure to have made the connection.
 

313103

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There seems a lot of discontent with these G4S staff on many forums! Although the OP is right in this instance the OP could hve sought out the guard on the first train which would have removed the need for any conflict and would have been sure to have made the connection.

The reason why there is so much discontent with this lot is because they think they are patrolling Haicinda back in the day. They do not know what they are looking at, i showed them an oyster card and they let me through. That tells you that hiring contract companies to do revenue collection is cheap and cheerful, Northern Rail wont employ these directly because now we are in a period of Austerity they would not want to be burdened with paying sick pay, holidays, proper working times to a proper working roster, they get out all the hidden recomendations, that prevent staff from backing up (ie finish work at 23.59 and start your next shift 06.00). Hence the reason why companies (my one included use secruity Guards).

All staff that are employed on the railway should brought in house, at least there will be some accountability.
 

pemma

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If Merseyside can specify proper booking offices, staffed at all times, then why can't GMPTE and West Yorks PTE?

Merseytravel have the advantage of being the issuer of the franchise for Merseyrail, which covers a lot of stations within Merseyside.
 

WestCoast

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I think G4S are ridiculously untrained, they should be placed on a ticketing course of a decent length with regular tests.

However, having said that the G4S on the bridge at Preston seem so much friendlier than at Manchester Piccadilly. One guy even wished me a nice day..:o

If Merseyside can specify proper booking offices, staffed at all times, then why can't GMPTE and West Yorks PTE?

I agree it would seem more sensible to introduce more ticket offices which reduce the pressure on guards and G4S.
 

yorkie

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There seems a lot of discontent with these G4S staff on many forums! Although the OP is right in this instance the OP could hve sought out the guard on the first train which would have removed the need for any conflict and would have been sure to have made the connection.

There is no requirement to do so, and furthermore it would be seen as 'queue jumping', if a passenger was about to be served at their seat and someone else walked up to the guard and asked to be served first to avoid queues at Manchester, the guard may well refuse and the passengers who are next in line to be served may well be unhappy if such a request was granted.
 

table38

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There is no requirement to do so, and furthermore it would be seen as 'queue jumping', if a passenger was about to be served at their seat and someone else walked up to the guard and asked to be served first to avoid queues at Manchester, the guard may well refuse and the passengers who are next in line to be served may well be unhappy if such a request was granted.

I hadn't considered that, but additionally in my experience, other reasons for not "seeking out the guard" are:

1. guard busy dealing with a sick passenger
2. guard in the other set of a 2x185 formation
3. train completely wedged

Also does your average punter know where to look? I suspect the driver wouldn't be too chuffed™ if you started knocking on the door looking for the guard.
 

furryfeet

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Also does your average punter know where to look? I suspect the driver wouldn't be too chuffed™ if you started knocking on the door looking for the guard.
Perhaps it will take something like that to happen, before the train companies DO write it in black and white in the national conditions that "if one started the journey at a station without an open booking office then one can pay for one's journey, without penalty/surcharge and with all tickets/discounts that would be available at any subsequent point on the journey" ( as the opening post suggests ! )

I believe that First-Trans-Pennine use the wording of "passing by an open booking office at the start of one's journey" so why do the other TOC's not follow suit ?
It would appear, yet again that someone at ATOC / Daft is not doing their job properly !
 

RPI

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I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!
 

strange6

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I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!

That's the priority as far as i'm concerned; seeking out the guard. If you can prove that you have done so (by using a mobile to film yourself doing so) then all the better
 

Solent&Wessex

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I believe that First-Trans-Pennine use the wording of "passing by an open booking office at the start of one's journey" so why do the other TOC's not follow suit ?
It would appear, yet again that someone at ATOC / Daft is not doing their job properly !

The wording on the announcement is:

"First Transpennine Express complies with the National Rail Conditions of carriage, therefore, if you have chosen to walk past an open ticket office today, you will only be able to purchase standard full fare tickets on board this service"
 

Ferret

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The wording on the announcement is:

"First Transpennine Express complies with the National Rail Conditions of carriage, therefore, if you have chosen to walk past an open ticket office today, you will only be able to purchase standard full fare tickets on board this service"

Here lies a personal bugbear; how the heck do I know if a ticket office is open or not? Tonight, I'm checking tickets and find a lad wanting to buy a ticket from Chester-le-St with a Y-P. How can I possibly know if the ticket office is open or closed? He was the only person who joined, so I couldn't check if others had just bought tickets to give me a clue as to the status of the booking office, so short of ringing the station which then wastes valuable ticket-checking time, I'm left with one sensible option - sell him his Y-P ticket and move on to the next person.
 

Lampshade

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I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!

I didn't seek out the Guard immediately because I'd have thought it'd be expected the Guard would come round selling tickets as after 1400 every station on that line is unstaffed. I rarely use that station now anyway, I catch the bus either to Oxford Road/Piccadilly or the nearest staffed station.

In hindsight the track record of Guards actually coming round to sell tickets on that line is poor when there are G4S barriers at Piccadilly. I once did the entire line from Crewe and one single ticket check took place after Holmes Chapel, with no further checks.
 

Mojo

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I'm not saying that the OP was required to seek out the guard but it would have helped them on their way, as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's but if someone makes the effort to seek us out we'll sell a ticket.
Yes there may be reasons that the OP didn't seek out the guard but was just a suggestion that may help them in future!
It's not tripe at all. I made this post in January and have said the same on a similar subject in the past:
There is no requirement documented that you must seek out the guard if there are no facilities for you to buy.

In addition, see my post here, as on some routes it is also considered rude and jumping the queue to approach the guard and ask to buy a ticket. I was a regular commuter on the Severn Beach line in Bristol (all stations unstaffed except for Bristol Temple Meads) a few years ago, and when people did this then they would always get shouted down by others (including me if I was close enough), and in some cases the guard would inform them that they would be seen in due course as some passengers got on earlier but had not yet been seen.

I would like to hope that you don't mean you PF someone for failing to seek you out if they had no way of buying the ticket before boarding (which is not what we're discussing here), but merely that you would not PF someone if they attempt to seek you out in a case where you could legally get away with PF-ing someone anyway (ie. if they could have bought the ticket before boarding), although I have no difference either way on the last point.
 

pemma

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Here lies a personal bugbear; how the heck do I know if a ticket office is open or not? Tonight, I'm checking tickets and find a lad wanting to buy a ticket from Chester-le-St with a Y-P. How can I possibly know if the ticket office is open or closed? He was the only person who joined, so I couldn't check if others had just bought tickets to give me a clue as to the status of the booking office, so short of ringing the station which then wastes valuable ticket-checking time, I'm left with one sensible option - sell him his Y-P ticket and move on to the next person.

Some stations still have ticket machines which don't offer the full range of tickets so if the ticket office is closed some people can buy the ticket they require while others can't.

There's been complaints posted on forums before that EMT staff aren't aware that Northern close Widnes ticket office mid-afternoon.

There's also issues when a ticket office should be open but it's closed due to staff shortages or technical failures.
 

island

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In France the on-board purchase rules give better treatment (lower cost) to people who actively seek out the guard as against waiting to be checked.
 

yorkie

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...as for the queue jumping arguement what tripe! in my area we issue PF's ....
I think that says it all.

In other words you are going on about what happens in your area, which is completely, totally and utterly different to the situation on the line in question. The line in question would be totally inappropriate for PFs, the two are worlds apart. After 1400 you have to buy on board on this line. How is that comparable to a PF area?

Helpful? No, I don't think so. So why post it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's the priority as far as i'm concerned; seeking out the guard. If you can prove that you have done so (by using a mobile to film yourself doing so) then all the better
Assuming you are referring to a PF area, you are asking for leniency/discretion to be shown. In which case I totally agree. However this matter, raised by RPI, to which you are replying to, is muddying the water as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the case in question on this thread, but is worded in such a way that people may think that it does apply. This can cause confusion.
 

Jonny

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Here is the Wikipedia article on G4S: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G4S The key point is that it stands for Group 4 Securicor as in the Group 4 that mishandled prisoner escorts in the 1990s.

Also, if you were to swap the words behind G and S for something rather derogatory, I wouldn't blame you.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....There's been complaints posted on forums before that EMT staff aren't aware that Northern close Widnes ticket office mid-afternoon.

There's also issues when a ticket office should be open but it's closed due to staff shortages or technical failures.

This is one of the problems with the fragmented railway we have. Where a ticket office is closed when it should be open, the retail control for the operating TOC will be aware of it and should distribute the information to the Guards/RPIs on duty (Thameslink were quite good at telling other offices if one was not open, that was six years ago though), however, I doubt this information is ever passed on any further.
 

Ferret

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In fairness, sometimes I receive messages on the Blackberry saying XYZ ticket office is closed, please offer the full range of tickets. Trouble is, there's other times when I don't receive such messages!
 

Failed Unit

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In Scotrail land you also have the times when the ticket office is open but the staff are doing other things. May only be shut for 30 minutes but I doubt the gaurds would know. Saying that since the TVMs stopped taking cash you are always allowed to buy the full range on board. Now the gaurds have new equipment that doesn't like debit cards with some strange stories in the press about threatening to throw passengers off trains rather than ask then to pay at the destination which is what really happens.

As for G4S terrible train. I had an argument with one about doubling back a Piccadilly rather than changing at Oxford road on a journey between Irlam and Edinburgh. The ticket was valid by both York and Carlisie anyway but the didn't like me going to the costa near platform 13. They would never have known if I wasn't hungry.
 
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