Manchester Piccadilly G4S and their interpretation of the NRCoC

[Deerfold]

I went through the gateline at Leeds once to get to WHSmith, spent 20 mins and then went back through. Got the passback messsage but showed it to the staff there who just let me through.

That is one of the annoying things. Your ticket is rejected by the gate and then glanced at by staff who then let you through - if there was a good reason for rejection surely it ought to be looked at rather more closely...

If there isn't, why program the machines to reject them?

 

[jon0844]

Unlike the old gates where they could see the error code on the side, they won't know what caused it. They'll no doubt assume a faulty magstrip, unless you show them a YPRC or child ticket and they ask to see your railcard or make a judgement on age.

For the passback warning, as they didn't know that's what it said (and you can't tell them as you probably didn't even notice a tiny number at the bottom right of the tiny LCD display with a crap contrast ratio) then they'll assume it's fine.

In which case, they might as well let tickets through again straight away - or reduce the timeout to a matter of minutes. I am sure staff don't want the hassle of trying to make the accusation that someone passed a ticket back when the person could deny it and then you have to do a full investigation, pull CCTV etc to prove them wrong.

Much better to give them the benefit of the doubt, which is why those people who are brazen enough can get away with murder.

 

[bnm]

If that TOC were the one insisting on putting semi-trained baboons on the ticket checks, then yes.

Semi-trained??? Barely trained would be more apt.

 

[Anvil1984]

They don't have the right to make people miss connections. On time running is far more important than revenue protection.

I don't accept any TOC vs TOC argument as we are supposed to have an integrated rail network. Any infighting between TOCs needs to be sorted elsewhere.

They have the right to check tickets on the station under railway by laws, the minimum conncetion time allowed at Man Pic is 10 mins, I have very rarely encountered a platform check take more than 5 mins when it comes to changing times.

As I say I'm not a fan of G4S as I have to work with them at Victoria but it would be the same amount of time as it would take a Northern properly trained member of staff maybe longer as they would check the ticket properly, it would help if passengers heed the warning that they will need the ticket to get out of the platforms but they never do.

Its impossible to auto barrier Salford in its current status because the platforms are too narrow maybe when its rebuilt they should, at the same time they should auto barrier Piccadilly but that won't dont well on here

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I suppose it's worrying that G4S do the Ambulance Patient Transport in my area then...

 

[4SRKT]

They have the right to check tickets on the station under railway by laws, the minimum conncetion time allowed at Man Pic is 10 mins, I have very rarely encountered a platform check take more than 5 mins when it comes to changing times.

The purpose of having minimum connecting times at large stations is because trains sometimes run late, and to guard against unrealistic expectations because of this, not to allow knuckle dragging oafs to check tickets, something that isn't usually done between connecting trains at the same station anyway.

 

[craigwilson]

The St Pancras gates up at platforms 11-13 (the high speed platforms) can be a bit capricious too in my experience. Generally, tickets for wholly Southeastern journeys get through OK. Anytimes/Off peaks to onward stations often work, but sometimes don't. I have never ever had an Advance ticket work properly in the gate though - I've just given up trying these days, if I have an Advance, I just make a beeline straight for the station guard who's stood manning the wide gate.

In contrast, neither Victoria nor Paddington have ever given me any issues.

 

[142094]

I suppose it's worrying that G4S do the Ambulance Patient Transport in my area then...

Not sure if G4S operate certain prisons/YOIs, although Serco do and there have been numerous stories about 'accident's and even deaths when people have been in their care.

 

[4SRKT]

Not sure if G4S operate certain prisons/YOIs, although Serco do and there have been numerous stories about 'accident's and even deaths when people have been in their care.

Given that Serco also operate Education Bradford, maybe I should be a little concerned for my kids' future. At this rate all they'll be fit for is to be barrier assistants at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[jon0844]

They collect rubbish around here, and are installing the gatelines and doing structural work at Finsbury Park, where I photographed not one working inside the empty shell on platform 1/2 wearing protective headgear!

Jack of all trades company that bid for any job and then find staff later, or sub-contract. Isn't that what Jarvis was doing?

Oh and they run the DLR don't they?

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk

 

[premier01]

The purpose of having minimum connecting times at large stations is because trains sometimes run late, and to guard against unrealistic expectations because of this, not to allow knuckle dragging oafs to check tickets, something that isn't usually done between connecting trains at the same station anyway.

I think that reinforces the key point here-it's the fact that the ticket check isn't when exiting the station which I think would be more than acceptable.

I have often got train from Preston getting off at 14 with 15 mins to spare before onward connection to say York-want to go to the WH Smith in lounge for newspaper or grab coffee from Starbucks but the apes at the top of the stairs cause such a bottleneck it prevents this trip.

Also agree that they aren't even semi-trained and therefore shouldn't be there-know this will get comments from some here about getting confrontational but several times I have shown tickets from previous journeys and they haven't been questioned!

These include out of date tickets, other routes for subsequent journeys, return tickets on outward journeys and-wait for it-seat reservations!

There is good reason for this as simply wanted to test how trained they are and how diligent they are and the result is that they are-as thought-a waste of time and resources.

The only time that I got 'challenged' was when a train manager on a TPE from Preston wrote all over ticket in a black pen for some reason-the ticket was still legible but the bloke wasn't impressed at all-he just shrugged it off eventually saying he's never seen it before-I have-and didn't want to laugh it off like I as suggesting.

 

[scrapy]

Not saying whether it is right or wrong but there are plenty of other major stations around the country where you go through a ticket check (or even two checks) when changing platforms. Examples include:-

Cardiff Central - Platform 0 to other platforms
Liverpool Lime St - Platforms 1-6 to 7-9 or low level
Liverpool South Parkway - Platforms 1-4 to 5-6
London Victoria - Gatwick Express to everything else
London St Pancras - Thameslink to International, HS2 or East Midlands Trains
Staines

People who were complaining about the barriering of Sheffield and closure of footbridge to non ticket holders,were also suggesting individual platform groups could be barriered, which would lead to checks when changng trains.

 

[island]

The St Pancras gates up at platforms 11-13 (the high speed platforms) can be a bit capricious too in my experience. Generally, tickets for wholly Southeastern journeys get through OK. Anytimes/Off peaks to onward stations often work, but sometimes don't. I have never ever had an Advance ticket work properly in the gate though - I've just given up trying these days, if I have an Advance, I just make a beeline straight for the station guard who's stood manning the wide gate.

In contrast, neither Victoria nor Paddington have ever given me any issues.

That'll probably be Southeastern trying to sell PLUS HIGH SPEED supplements :/

 

[Failed Unit]

Not saying whether it is right or wrong but there are plenty of other major stations around the country where you go through a ticket check (or even two checks) when changing platforms. Examples include:-

Cardiff Central - Platform 0 to other platforms
Liverpool Lime St - Platforms 1-6 to 7-9 or low level
Liverpool South Parkway - Platforms 1-4 to 5-6
London Victoria - Gatwick Express to everything else
London St Pancras - Thameslink to International, HS2 or East Midlands Trains
Staines

People who were complaining about the barriering of Sheffield and closure of footbridge to non ticket holders,were also suggesting individual platform groups could be barriered, which would lead to checks when changng trains.

I would add Edinburgh Waverley to that list. IC services don't get checked Scotrails do so if you arrive say on 14 (with TPE) and leave on 10 (with Scotrail) you will get checked twice.

 

[RPI]

For all those who say that barriers don't do anything for protecting revenue, the recent implementation of gates at Truro station has seen a footfall increase (based on ticket sales from on train and at gateline) of just over 600 per week, so basically 31200 passengers a year that were going free, in an area where it is near impossible for guards to get through trains due to close stations, despite the fact that most of the Falmouth trains had 2 people selling tickets on them. and that is only based on last month, how high would it have been in july and august?

 

[Deerfold]

For all those who say that barriers don't do anything for protecting revenue, the recent implementation of gates at Truro station has seen a footfall increase (based on ticket sales from on train and at gateline) of just over 600 per week, so basically 31200 passengers a year that were going free, in an area where it is near impossible for guards to get through trains due to close stations, despite the fact that most of the Falmouth trains had 2 people selling tickets on them. and that is only based on last month, how high would it have been in july and august?

I think there's very few arguing that barriers have no place. I'm very much against the new barriers at Kings Cross and the farce at Leeds but I realise there are places where they're a very good idea.

I suspect these barriers haven't been installed across just a couple of platforms so you have to go through to get to the rest of the platforms?

 

[Failed Unit]

For all those who say that barriers don't do anything for protecting revenue, the recent implementation of gates at Truro station has seen a footfall increase (based on ticket sales from on train and at gateline) of just over 600 per week, so basically 31200 passengers a year that were going free, in an area where it is near impossible for guards to get through trains due to close stations, despite the fact that most of the Falmouth trains had 2 people selling tickets on them. and that is only based on last month, how high would it have been in july and august?

On that line did the TOC provide TVMs so passengers could buy tickets before the boarded? In Lincoln they didnt so CT was in effect saying you are all fare dodgers but didn't acknowledge that most of the revenue lost was down to the fact passengers couldnt buy tickets in the first place!

I am not against barriers, in fact I would like to see more at urban stations such as Alexandra palace. You have the TVM to buy first and they have done wonders on the north London line.

However you can't deny that barriers also make fare dodging easier. Take kings cross were you can use FCC only tickets on east coast to Peterborough unless on train checks still take place. If they are taking place anyway on this long distance IC why have the barriers delaying passengers? In the cases where you need to pass through to change trains you have just made it easier to break Ts&Cs. You can finish / Start short on an AP as they have no idea if you have just changed trains or arrived off the street. You can very easily travel unchallenged on a Manchester airport - Nottingham AP (example only ticket may not exist) from Piccadilly and claim you are changing

I strongly believe if barriers are installed at any station TVMs at the surrounding stations must be installed first. When the barriers were switched on at Edinburgh Waverley passengers needed to wait in a 20 minute queue to get a ticket and miss connections. Would they have paid without the barriers if the gaurd didn't come probably not. Would the have brought a ticket if a TVM existed, some definately and they are unfairly penalised now. Yes we need to catch the ones that wouldn't and in some cases barriers are the only way, but don't hurt the honest by crimalising them as well because the have no way of buying!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just re-reading RPIs post it has all the features I despise about TOCs attempting to justify barriers. 600 scumbags per week are not paying the fare, get sympathy from the public aren't barriers wonderful. What I would be interest to know is how many of those Scumbags had no chance of buying a ticket? This will be known to the TOC but they all refuse to let this be known.

A press release saying we catch 1000 people per day at the barriers on 13 & 14 sounds impressive, if this was then followed up by 900 of these scumbags had no ticket issuing facilities at the station they boarded it is no longer impressive it turns the focus back to the lazy TOC. Some of those passengers would give their right arm to buy a ticket before the barrier to avoid the queue and avoid missing their connections. If fare evasion is such an issue on the lines into platform 13/14 provide ticket issuing facilities at all stations and penalty fare the area. Relying on the gaurd alone isn't good enough, they are not super human an can only issue a limited number of tickets!

 

[radamfi]

TVMs should be installed everywhere if only to allow ticket pick up. It seems crazy that major suburban stations up north are denied ticket pick up but every little shack in the South East has it.

 

[island]

TVMs should be installed everywhere if only to allow ticket pick up. It seems crazy that major suburban stations up north are denied ticket pick up but every little shack in the South East has it.

Main issue I think is theft (mitigated by card-only TVMs but they create problems of their own) and vandalism.

Not every station in the south-east has a TVM. Stone Crossing, for example, has just a Permit to Travel machine, augmented by someone who takes an Avantix out there for three hours of the morning peak.

 

[Failed Unit]

Main issue I think is theft (mitigated by card-only TVMs but they create problems of their own) and vandalism.

Not every station in the south-east has a TVM. Stone Crossing, for example, has just a Permit to Travel machine, augmented by someone who takes an Avantix out there for three hours of the morning peak.

But at least doing that relieves the problem, many stations have nothing but passengers are treated like crimals by the TOC because they don't provide a means to buy a ticket. Credit card only TVMs are better than nothing (we have them in Scotland) sometimes they don't work but it gives the gaurd a fighting chance. Every morning at queen street at least 50 people are queuing to get a ticket, I am sure the would love to buy before hand rather than queue but if the station has no issuing facalities and the gaurd is in the wrong set (no corridor connection) what can they do. I hope Scotrail don't assume they didn't want to pay like many TOCs. The reason many of them don't have tickets is the failure of the TOC. They could have someone per set. I always give scotrail the minimum rating for ticket checking in passenger focus surveys, yes I could sit in the rear set, but the front set has less people in it!

 

[radamfi]

Main issue I think is theft (mitigated by card-only TVMs but they create problems of their own) and vandalism.

Not every station in the south-east has a TVM. Stone Crossing, for example, has just a Permit to Travel machine, augmented by someone who takes an Avantix out there for three hours of the morning peak.

I know there are a few stations in the SE without TVMs, Salfords as well, but they are relatively minor stations.

Metrolink are installing fully fledged National Rail type TVMs across their network, so if you can do it there, you can do it anywhere.

 

[34D]

The other good one is KX platforms 9-11 barriers rejecting my ticket at 07:30 in the morning peak because it is an off-peak ticket (to Cardiff which is valid on the 08:15 from Paddington which is the train I was intending to catch)

The barriers at Letchworth reject most advance tickets (though I can put my season ticket in there so not an issue for me) & they also reject all half-fare tickets issued to HCC bus pass holders for travel within Hertfordshire,

That probably isn't the reason for the rejection. The technology behind the gates isn't that good (as in - they certainly don't read from the routing guide)). Basically, they need to be set up with specific tickets that are valid. Example the Letchworth gates will be set up with the popular ones from Letchworth, but possibly not Letchworth to Cardiff (which similarly may not be set up at Kings Cross - for any time of day).

 

[Deerfold]

TVMs should be installed everywhere if only to allow ticket pick up. It seems crazy that major suburban stations up north are denied ticket pick up but every little shack in the South East has it.

Thast's not just down to a lack of TVMs. Keighley, Shipley and Bradford stations have TVMs but still no ticket pickup. Some but not all of these are in the ticket office so unavailable out of hours anyway.

 

[jon0844]

Given that TVMs can't issue all the tickets someone requires, I don't understand why the permit to travel machines have been removed from so many locations.

Yes, it would allow someone to buy a 5p ticket and perhaps never pay the other end - but if these were recorded in some way (i.e. the tickets that were 'upgraded' later were recorded), it might just tell the TOCs how many people wanted, but couldn't get, a ticket.

Have no permit, and you have the book thrown at you (assuming it was working).

But why can't TVMs issue all tickets? Well, we've had that discussion many times and it seems to be on the assumption that everyone will buy discounted tickets or point-to-point tickets one stop after the origin, and one stop before the destination to save money. But, that's when onboard RPIs should get you - and, again, you have the book thrown at you as it's fraud. No penalty fare, no warning: court.

Society these days only seems to care about things when they really do get punished, but the current system turns the innocent into potential criminals as we seem to have to cater for the fraudsters.

TVM software could surely be updated to require someone buying a Gold Card or YPRC discounted ticket, or ticket extension, enters their photocard/railcard number on an on-screen keyboard that is then printed on the ticket. Along with a on-screen disclaimer that reads out the key T&Cs (so there's no way of arguing you didn't know them), it gives RPIs another way of keeping some control.

Perhaps set gates to 'seek assistance' for people who have bought a ticket extension or discounted ticket from a TVM - then make any checks there and then - and punish those who tried it on severely.

We should have a system in place that allows ordinary passengers to get what they want and travel with relative freedom, and punish those who abuse the system. Not think of all the clever, or not so clever, ways to avoid paying and then remove these methods to the detriment of everyone else.

We also need to re-think the way we issue tickets. If we still want paper tickets, what about a newer type that can store more information (surely the gates themselves would only need updated software?)? In Barcelona, information is physically printed on the rear of the ticket (useful when I killed my 'T-10' 10-journey ticket after putting it near my BlackBerry accidentally; it meant they could issue me with a manual 'T-8' ticket) and in Germany you must validate your own ticket, which proves where you got on (and there's a tough penalty if you don't).

Maybe we should look around to see other ways of doing things, and get the ball rolling to move people over to smartcards. With many new mobiles coming with NFC, you'll even be able to buy a train ticket on your mobile app and transfer it wirelessly to your train ticket.

 

[island]

Given that TVMs can't issue all the tickets someone requires, I don't understand why the permit to travel machines have been removed from so many locations.

Yes, it would allow someone to buy a 5p ticket and perhaps never pay the other end - but if these were recorded in some way (i.e. the tickets that were 'upgraded' later were recorded), it might just tell the TOCs how many people wanted, but couldn't get, a ticket.

Well, when (if) you hand in your permit to travel the clerk is supposed to write on the reverse what ticket was sold. Don't know if the permits go anywhere (last time I used one I had only a pound or two to pay and the clerk told me not to bother and threw the permit in the bin!)

Someone at a TVM-only location already has an option when the TVM doesn't sell the ticket they want; they buy a ticket for part of their journey and part-exchange it on the train or on arrival.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think it depends on the TVM, the old ones at new southgate only had the popular destinations, the more modern ones I have not found a ticket to somewhere that I wanted to go, and have used the gold card. I may just be lucky as there are many journeys I don't attempt of course!

 

[radamfi]

Given that TVMs can't issue all the tickets someone requires, I don't understand why the permit to travel machines have been removed from so many locations.

I spoke to one of the South West Trains managers at one of their meets at Waterloo and he said that if you buy any ticket from the TVM, it can be exchanged for the ticket you want if it isn't on the TVM. So that replaces the PMT.

Thast's not just down to a lack of TVMs. Keighley, Shipley and Bradford stations have TVMs but still no ticket pickup. Some but not all of these are in the ticket office so unavailable out of hours anyway.

I didn't realise that was still the case. I remember Southern TVMs becoming TOD approved a couple of years ago so I thought that all TVMs got TOD at that time.

They need to sort that ASAP.

 

[Jonny]

Main issue I think is theft (mitigated by card-only TVMs but they create problems of their own) and vandalism.

Not every station in the south-east has a TVM. Stone Crossing, for example, has just a Permit to Travel machine, augmented by someone who takes an Avantix out there for three hours of the morning peak.

Metrolink is in (Greater) Manchester and doesn't have a problem with theft from TVMs, not always in the most savoury of locations, same for the Tyneside Metro.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know there are a few stations in the SE without TVMs, Salfords as well, but they are relatively minor stations.

Metrolink are installing fully fledged National Rail type TVMs across their network, so if you can do it there, you can do it anywhere.

Exactly, and I think the T-W Metro system is as well.

 

[Deerfold]

I spoke to one of the South West Trains managers at one of their meets at Waterloo and he said that if you buy any ticket from the TVM, it can be exchanged for the ticket you want if it isn't on the TVM. So that replaces the PMT.



I didn't realise that was still the case. I remember Southern TVMs becoming TOD approved a couple of years ago so I thought that all TVMs got TOD at that time.

They need to sort that ASAP.

They don't have a lot of incentive - as it is you might as well pick up your ticket at Leeds / Wakefield and Northern will sell you a ticket to get there...

 

[Paul Kelly]

They don't have a lot of incentive - as it is you might as well pick up your ticket at Leeds / Wakefield and Northern will sell you a ticket to get there...

This raises an interesting question - how much freedom do the Intercity TOCs have to create their own "& connections" type advance tickets and then are the connecting TOCs always forced to accept these? How is the revenue shared with the possible TOCs that provide connecting services? Is it possible that Northern don't like the availability of "& connections" tickets that result in them receiving less revenue than if the passenger splits tickets at the relevant station where the connection would be made (e.g. Leeds)?

On a similar note, I read that a new negative easement had been introduced in the most recent update to the routeing guide to stop "& connections" tickets being valid to connect onto any Scotrail sleeper service at Carlisle.