Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[peters]

Our local LibDems are revolting... https://www.facebook.com/CllrShaffaqMohammed/


Unsurprising that they are wanting to be seen in opposition to the plans (and I say this as someone who'd love it, love it, if Option C was selected), it's easy to moan about any change, you can paint it to suggest that we are going to lose half of our Manchester services (just like that horribly disingenuous quotation from the Southport people was happy to give the impression that the incredibly important town full of Manchester University staff would see a 50% reduction in services to Manchester, rather than just having the same frequency but with everything serving the same central station).

To use completely made up numbers, there might be one hundred people in Sheffield who use the train to Manchester Airport each year and only ten people who use the train to commute to Manchester on a daily/regular basis - so a shameless politician (like Mohammed, with local elections around the corner) will appeal to the hundred (who'll see the direct service replaced by a change on the same island platform) rather than the ten (who'll have a more reliable service, and all trains using the same platform rather than some in the shed and some at 13/14).

However, for the railway, those ten people make significantly more journeys each year than a hundred people taking their annual holidays, and contribute a lot more in revenue (esp with Airport passengers booking on Advance tickets), so we need to balance the upset of a large(r) number of occasional passengers against the small(er) number of everyday passengers

Prior to the timetable change which meant Chester via Altrincham depart at around 20 to the hour, rather than just after quarter past, there were many times when I watched a South TransPennine service depart Manchester Piccadilly in the direction of Manchester Airport. The only occasions it had any noticeable number of passengers on board was when it was calling at stations between Piccadilly and the airport.

Even with the international students being referred to some only make one or two return journeys to the airport per year, as while they'd like to go home and visit family at Christmas and Easter, many stay in the UK due to high flight costs on dates around Christmas and Easter.

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester and the metrolink close by. On the other hand Wigan and Golborne are 24 and 19 miles from Manchester respectively. Neither have a bus route to Manchester and the closest metrolink is about 12 miles away.

How reliable is the bus service in winter? I'm aware bus services between Stockport and Buxton and between Macclesfield and Buxton can get suspended when it snows but I've found North TransPennine to not really be any less reliable in bad weather than normally.

Option D is potentially anything anyone wishes to discuss in the speculative thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-castlefield-again.204599/

I was actually wondering whether anyone knew what TfGM would be proposing as their official option D, given Mr Burnham is quoted as saying they will propose a 4th option which is none of the above but doesn't give any details on what that will contain. He can't know the 4th option is better overall for Greater Manchester if the 4th option isn't finalised and he does accept that there are limits to the number of services that can be accommodated in order to have a reliable service.

 

[Llandudno]

I personally think the passenger figures at Greenfield and Mossley don't justify half-hourly services outside of peak times if providing them causes a detriment to other areas. When I lived in Mossley, outside of peak times there'd be maybe an handful of users.

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester and the metrolink close by. On the other hand Wigan and Golborne are 24 and 19 miles from Manchester respectively. Neither have a bus route to Manchester and the closest metrolink is about 12 miles away.

Maybe the reason why there are ‘only a handful of users’ from Greenfield and Mossley is the fact that there is only one train per hour?

Also worth bearing in mind that some passengers may want to travel in the opposite direction towards Huddersfield and Leeds?

 

[adrock1976]

I personally think the passenger figures at Greenfield and Mossley don't justify half-hourly services outside of peak times if providing them causes a detriment to other areas. When I lived in Mossley, outside of peak times there'd be maybe an handful of users.

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester and the metrolink close by. On the other hand Wigan and Golborne are 24 and 19 miles from Manchester respectively. Neither have a bus route to Manchester and the closest metrolink is about 12 miles away.

Forgive me, but have the present incarnation of Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive secretly extended the Metrolink trams from Ashton-under-Lyne to Greenfield?

I must have missed that news item along the way.

 

[Ianno87]

Forgive me, but have the present incarnation of Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive secretly extended the Metrolink trams from Ashton-under-Lyne to Greenfield?

I must have missed that news item along the way.

It's not a million miles from Greenfield to either Ashton or the Oldham Loop Metrolink stops.

 

[43074]

So the obvious question is what is option D. Option C seems to offer the most improvements so if I'd have to guess then I would guess it's a revised form of option C so that some of the disadvantages of option C are removed but would that then just add other disadvantages instead?

Opion A is the one which appears to have the least amount of change as possible to try and keep as many of the current direct trains whilst tinkering around the edges to make Castlefield a bit better.

That said option C has gone down well with people in most quarters it seems, so if all it results in is the expected moaning from the Southport direction then it would probably be a decent result overall if it were implemented.

 

[scrapy]

I personally think the passenger figures at Greenfield and Mossley don't justify half-hourly services outside of peak times if providing them causes a detriment to other areas. When I lived in Mossley, outside of peak times there'd be maybe an handful of users.

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester and the metrolink close by. On the other hand Wigan and Golborne are 24 and 19 miles from Manchester respectively. Neither have a bus route to Manchester and the closest metrolink is about 12 miles away.

You can't really compare the two though. You would not make a path for a Golbourne train by putting Mossley and Greenfield down to hourly.

The lack of a bus route from Golbourne to Manchester may suggest there is a lack of demand as it would be perfectly feasible to have a service down the East Lancs with a reasonable journey time if commercially viable to do so and whilst you say Greenfield has Metrolink close by its actually 4 miles away, whilst Golbourne has a station 2 miles away at Newton le Willows with 4 trains an hour to Manchester.

Wigan on the other hand would still have at least 4 trains an hour to Manchester (5 in the peaks).

With there being paths for a Wigan to Hazel Grove service in the peaks, what is this path used for off peak? Freight? If this path is still available could the Wigan to Hazel Grove not run hourly all day? That would as allow a stop at Golborne and possibly a second hourly service at Eccles.

 

[Starmill]

I also find it hard to believe that people are going to recoil in horror that service patterns have changed when they return to rail.

It's not a question of recoiling in horror though is it? People are hardly committed to the idea of using the train to get to an airport. For most business travellers a taxi is perfectly feasible from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, and quicker and more convenient.

The key point is that rail is an edge case. It now lacks its key base of loyal users. It must, therefore, try hard to appeal.

 

[Ianno87]

It's not a question of recoiling in horror though is it? People are hardly committed to the idea of using the train to get to an airport. For most business travellers a taxi is perfectly feasible from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, and quicker and more convenient.

The key point is that rail is an edge case. It now lacks its key base of loyal users. It must, therefore, try hard to appeal.

Which means coming up with a service pattern that seeks to benefit the most number of potential passengers possible within the constraints of resources and capacity.

 

[Starmill]

Which means coming up with a service pattern that seeks to benefit the most number of potential passengers possible within the constraints of resources and capacity.

Indeed it is. And I'm not personally bothered at all about whether or not Sheffield, Doncaster or Grimsby maintain through services to Manchester Airport. But I also don't claim that rail won't lose some of its already weak market share of airport business. It's near certain to. It must therefore work to replace it with new money. That will be tough.

 

[peters]

Opion A is the one which appears to have the least amount of change as possible to try and keep as many of the current direct trains whilst tinkering around the edges to make Castlefield a bit better.

That said option C has gone down well with people in most quarters it seems, so if all it results in is the expected moaning from the Southport direction then it would probably be a decent result overall if it were implemented.

For the 'South Manchester' group option A doesn't really offer improvements. Stations between Buxton and Hazel Grove lose services and there's no stations gaining services. It's debatable whether option B is better or worse than now, it doesn't deliver 2tph from Crewe to the airport but does slow down journeys to Manchester from stations south of Alderley Edge. Option C does have some disadvantages over the current timetable but there seem to be overall more advantages such as
1. Tidying up the Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme calls to give a nice 15 minute frequency, something people have complained about for the past few years.
2. Doubling the frequency of Crewe to Manchester Airport services.
3. A consistent half-hourly service from Stockport to Oxford Road (and from Sheffield to Liverpool)
4. Enhanced frequency at busiest stations on the Mid-Cheshire line
Which does come at the price of
1. South TPE no longer running to the airport.
2. The loss of off-peak services to Hazel Grove but that has less of a negative impact than option A withdrawing Buxton services.

There's obviously the change to the North Wales service which has implications as well but that starts to get complicated given that while it will likely mean a slightly slower journey from North Wales to Manchester, there are positives from that change beyond those which benefit the Mid-Cheshire line, like faster services to Altrincham (for Metrolink services) from Chester and North Wales, as well as opportunities for connections at Stockport, which could reduce journey times for passengers who currently change to another service at Piccadilly.

Option C offers "A peak train from Southport to Oxford Road running semi-fast via Atherton." So if certain people from Southport complain about people needing to get to the university area then that might strengthen the case for option C. Depending on the feedback there could also be option C1 where they instead run the peak time Southport service through to Hazel Grove and terminate the Wigan peak time extra at Oxford Road. Although, I suspect that'll be worse for loadings as the Wigan passengers travelling to and from Piccadilly will get the Southport train.

 

[Greybeard33]

With there being paths for a Wigan to Hazel Grove service in the peaks, what is this path used for off peak? Freight? If this path is still available could the Wigan to Hazel Grove not run hourly all day? That would as allow a stop at Golborne and possibly a second hourly service at Eccles.

Options B and C have 13tph in the Castlefield corridor in the peaks, but only 11tph off peak. Presumably a higher performance risk is considered acceptable in the peaks.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester and the metrolink close by. On the other hand Wigan and Golborne are 24 and 19 miles from Manchester respectively. Neither have a bus route to Manchester and the closest metrolink is about 12 miles away.

For the sake of those on this thread who may be unaware of the location of Greenfield, exactly how far is it from Greenfield to the nearest Metrolink stop....and where is that stop situated?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Options B and C have 13tph in the Castlefield corridor in the peaks, but only 11tph off peak. Presumably a higher performance risk is considered acceptable in the peaks.

I guess so, because the service can recover between the peaks. This is a similar approach to the south WCML, where as much as possible is crammed in for both peaks and it's generally accepted that some of it may run late (but rarely cancelled) but it can tidy itself up later on. This is one reason why the complex Liverpool/Rugeley service failed - that late running had too much knock-on and couldn't easily recover.

 

[peters]

Options B and C have 13tph in the Castlefield corridor in the peaks, but only 11tph off peak. Presumably a higher performance risk is considered acceptable in the peaks.

Could it relate to no freight movements to Trafford Park being allowed at peak times?

 

[andyj158]

How reliable is the bus service in winter? I'm aware bus services between Stockport and Buxton and between Macclesfield and Buxton can get suspended when it snows but I've found North TransPennine to not really be any less reliable in bad weather than normally.

It's actually surprisingly reliable in all but the worst of weather conditions. I remember one period when buses were suspended for a few hours due to snow. Normally there's just a few minor diversions to stick to main roads.

Maybe the reason why there are ‘only a handful of users’ from Greenfield and Mossley is the fact that there is only one train per hour?

Also worth bearing in mind that some passengers may want to travel in the opposite direction towards Huddersfield and Leeds?

There's frequent trams near by which people can use if the demand is there for the Manchester direction.

Passenger numbers traveling in the other direction from Greenfield and Mossley (towards Huddersfield and Leeds) were even less in the off-peak, because it was more expensive to cross from Greater Manchester to Yorkshire. I'd often travel to Huddersfield because it had a Wimpy burger bar and you could often count the numbers continuing through Standedge Tunnel when it used to be the Northern stoppers. Summer weekends would be much busier with stag and hen parties on the ale trail.

Forgive me, but have the present incarnation of Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive secretly extended the Metrolink trams from Ashton-under-Lyne to Greenfield?

I must have missed that news item along the way.

It's 4.1 miles between Greenfield and Oldham Mumps.

The lack of a bus route from Golbourne to Manchester may suggest there is a lack of demand as it would be perfectly feasible to have a service down the East Lancs with a reasonable journey time if commercially viable to do so and whilst you say Greenfield has Metrolink close by its actually 4 miles away, whilst Golbourne has a station 2 miles away at Newton le Willows with 4 trains an hour to Manchester.

I think a new station with Manchester links would create demand and entice leisure travel back to rail once things start getting back to normal.
The trouble with Newton-le-Willows for Manchester is its in the Merseytravel area, so if you have a TFGM ticket product, Newton-le-Willows is out of the question. A Golborne station would be in Greater Manchester.

For the sake of those on this thread who may be unaware of the location of Greenfield, exactly how far is it from Greenfield to the nearest Metrolink stop....and where is that stop situated?

It's 4.1miles from Greenfield to Oldham Mumps tram stop.

 

[Ianno87]

The lack of a bus route from Golbourne to Manchester may suggest there is a lack of demand as it would be perfectly feasible to have a service down the East Lancs with a reasonable journey time if commercially viable to do so and whilst you say Greenfield has Metrolink close by its actually 4 miles away, whilst Golbourne has a station 2 miles away at Newton le Willows with 4 trains an hour to Manchester.

There is a limited morning/evening 34 service that takes about 80-90 minutes (albeit via Leigh and Worsley). Pre-Covid, traffic congestion would have extended this quite considerably.

I doubt a service avoiding Leigh would be particularly commercially viable.

 

[andyj158]

There is a limited morning/evening 34 service that takes about 80-90 minutes (albeit via Leigh and Worsley). Pre-Covid, traffic congestion would have extended this quite considerably.

I doubt a service avoiding Leigh would be particularly commercially viable.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about these Bryn - Manchester via Golborne & Leigh 34's. They seem to coincide with when buses will be leaving or returning to the Stagecoach depot in Bryn, rather than being of any real commercial benefit to Stagecoach. These start / finish at Bryn Railway Station which is just around the corner from the Stagecoach depot.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's 4.1 miles between Greenfield and Oldham Mumps.

They must be a hardy bunch up there who could describe 4.1 miles as "close by"....

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester.

What is the service number of this "frequent direct bus route" from Greenfield to Manchester.

I recall in past days there being a direct bus service 180 from Greenfield to Manchester, but according to TfGM website information, that route is now stated to only run between Greenfield and Oldham.

 

[andyj158]

What is the service number of this "frequent direct bus route" from Greenfield to Manchester.

I recall in past days there being a direct bus service 180 from Greenfield to Manchester, but according to TfGM website information, that route is now stated to only run between Greenfield and Oldham.

The 84 is every 30 minutes between Greenfield Station and Manchester Piccadilly Gardens.

There's also possibilities to connect to Metrolink.

The 350 operates every 30 minutes for most of the day to both Oldham and Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink stops, and there is the hourly day time 356 to the Metrolink at Ashton-under-Lyne, which also goes via Stalybridge Station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 84 is every 30 minutes between Greenfield Station and Manchester Piccadilly Gardens.

There's also possibilities to connect to Metrolink.

The 350 operates every 30 minutes for most of the day to both Oldham and Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink stops, and there is the hourly day time 356 to the Metrolink at Ashton-under-Lyne, which also goes via Stalybridge Station.

Thanks for updating an "old-timer of 75" like me on current bus affairs. I see that in a past posting, you mentioned it was 4.1 miles from Greenfield to the Oldham Mumps tram stop, so being interested about what you say about this 350 bus service in the Greenfield area to the Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink stop, what is the distance between Greenfield and Ashton-under-Lyne that the 350 bus actually takes and the journey time taken for such a journey. (I know from experience in other areas of England that certain bus routes have a habit of calling in on outlying areas and to hark back to Captain James Kirk of the USS Enterprise with a play on words..."To boldly go where no bus has gone before".

 

[sportzbar]

Thanks for updating an "old-timer of 75" like me on current bus affairs. I see that in a past posting, you mentioned it was 4.1 miles from Greenfield to the Oldham Mumps tram stop, so being interested about what you say about this 350 bus service in the Greenfield area to the Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink stop, what is the distance between Greenfield and Ashton-under-Lyne that the 350 bus actually takes and the journey time taken for such a journey. (I know from experience in other areas of England that certain bus routes have a habit of calling in on outlying areas and to hark back to Captain James Kirk of the USS Enterprise with a play on words..."To boldly go where no bus has gone before".

The 350 takes an average of 41 minutes from Greenfield station to Ashton-under-Lyne interchange (as it's called now), including a scenic tour of Mossley..

 

[Andyh82]

If you were in Greenfield and wanting to use Metrolink, clearly the best option is catching the 84, 180 or 184, getting off at the Mumps Interchange and changing onto the tram there. The fact some Saddleworth buses are now only running to Oldham rather than going all the way to Manchester suggests to me that this is now what many people are doing.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation.

For discussion on buses please use either an existing thread or start a new one in the Buses and Coaches section.

Any further off-topic posts about buses in this thread will be deleted.

thanks

 

[nr758123]

This discussion has taken a bizarre turn.

In a discussion about changes to take effect from May 2022 (i.e. based on making the best possible use of existing infrastructure), apparently there’s a case for providing a regular service to a non-existent Golborne station. It’s only two miles away from Newton le Willows, which has 4tph to Manchester taking between 18 and 27 minutes, but because it’s not Metrolink and it’s outside Greater Manchester (therefore a higher fare) that doesn’t count.

But on the other hand, Greenfield (432,830 passenger journeys pa) and Mossley (327,738 pa) don’t justify a half hourly service because they are allegedly poorly used, because Greenfield has direct buses to Manchester (though Mossley doesn’t) and because 4 miles away there’s a Metrolink stop.

The through journey from Greenfield to Manchester on the 84 bus is 66 minutes. A combination of bus & Metrolink or car & Metrolink is unlikely to be less than an hour. Somehow all of these are better options than 31’ on the train.

Given the difference in journey times, it’s reasonable to predict that increasing the frequency of trains to half hourly at Greenfield (as per options B & C) will make it a more attractive option and promote modal shift from car, car/tram, bus and bus/tram to train.

 

[Llandudno]

This discussion has taken a bizarre turn.

In a discussion about changes to take effect from May 2022 (i.e. based on making the best possible use of existing infrastructure), apparently there’s a case for providing a regular service to a non-existent Golborne station. It’s only two miles away from Newton le Willows, which has 4tph to Manchester taking between 18 and 27 minutes, but because it’s not Metrolink and it’s outside Greater Manchester (therefore a higher fare) that doesn’t count.

But on the other hand, Greenfield (432,830 passenger journeys pa) and Mossley (327,738 pa) don’t justify a half hourly service because they are allegedly poorly used, because Greenfield has direct buses to Manchester (though Mossley doesn’t) and because 4 miles away there’s a Metrolink stop.

The through journey from Greenfield to Manchester on the 84 bus is 66 minutes. A combination of bus & Metrolink or car & Metrolink is unlikely to be less than an hour. Somehow all of these are better options than 31’ on the train.

Given the difference in journey times, it’s reasonable to predict that increasing the frequency of trains to half hourly at Greenfield (as per options B & C) will make it a more attractive option and promote modal shift from car, car/tram, bus and bus/tram to train.

Someone talking sense, over three quarters of a million journeys per annum from Greenfield and Mossley seems pretty good for by and large an hourly service.

I would be very surprised in non Covid times if a regular thirty minute headway was provided then passenger numbers would soon exceed 1m per annum

 

[Starmill]

Returning to the timetable consultation we can conclude the following: Mossley and Greenfield plainly justify a peak hour 2tph service, or they wouldn't have been provided one for a decade or more. As with the expansion in service a few years ago at Darwen, Bromley Cross and Hall i th Wood, it's also near certain that they'd benefit from 2tph on Saturday and interpeak, however, the interpeak benefit would be rather thin compared to the other periods explained. It's also noteworthy too that 2tph all day could be expected to continue a little later post the evening peak, and that those trains around 1900ish are often well used indeed, as well as the first two services in the morning on which off peak tickets may be used, and those are very relevant here because Mossley and Greenfield didn't have 2tph at that time. Finally, 2tph off peak can vary seasonally much more than at peak times, and is especially popular at bank holiday weekends, during the local school half terms, and in the November and December Christmas shopping periods. Another way to put this is that the best way to maximise the demand that you can cater for with 2tph is usually to run it from start of service, or from the second service of the day if start of service is before 0600, until 1100, and again from 1500 until around 2000. Therefore we're only really talking about a handful of services, which will be quiet on most days regardless of what you do (incidentally this is why Greater Anglia have cheaper Super Off Peak fares that are only valid on trains arriving in London from 1200). I suspect all can agree with this and probably move on without needing to debate the benefits of Metrolink or bus services at much length.

 

[Greybeard33]

Returning to the timetable consultation we can conclude the following: Mossley and Greenfield plainly justify a peak hour 2tph service, or they wouldn't have been provided one for a decade or more. As with the expansion in service a few years ago at Darwen, Bromley Cross and Hall i th Wood, it's also near certain that they'd benefit from 2tph on Saturday and interpeak, however, the interpeak benefit would be rather thin compared to the other periods explained. It's also noteworthy too that 2tph all day could be expected to continue a little later post the evening peak, and that those trains around 1900ish are often well used indeed, as well as the first two services in the morning on which off peak tickets may be used, and those are very relevant here because Mossley and Greenfield didn't have 2tph at that time. Finally, 2tph off peak can vary seasonally much more than at peak times, and is especially popular at bank holiday weekends, during the local school half terms, and in the November and December Christmas shopping periods. Another way to put this is that the best way to maximise the demand that you can cater for with 2tph is usually to run it from start of service, or from the second service of the day if start of service is before 0600, until 1100, and again from 1500 until around 2000. Therefore we're only really talking about a handful of services, which will be quiet on most days regardless of what you do (incidentally this is why Greater Anglia have cheaper Super Off Peak fares that are only valid on trains arriving in London from 1200). I suspect all can agree with this and probably move on without needing to debate the benefits of Metrolink or bus services at much length.

Additionally the general expectation is that there will be less daily commuting post-Covid and that leisure journeys will make up a larger proportion of the total.

Maybe there will be fewer peak variations in the final timetable than floated in the consultation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If anyone wants to discuss serving Golborne further, by the way, I created a thread for that specific topic:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/golborne-station-if-it-opens-how-might-it-be-served.213933/

 

[andyj158]

I'd like to see option B for just a few changes:

> Cumbria services remain via Wigan NW and Chat Moss.

> A Bolton - Stalybridge service introduced to keep the proposed 10tph between Bolton & Manchester which option B offers.

> The proposed Chester - Stalybridge remain a Chester - Leeds service, replacing one the 2tph Manchester Victoria - Leeds services proposed in Option B, keeping the 6tph towards Rochdale.

 

[peters]

> The proposed Chester - Stalybridge remain a Chester - Leeds service, replacing one the 2tph Manchester Victoria - Leeds services proposed in Option B, keeping the 6tph towards Rochdale.

Can't see that happening. 2tph Chester-Leeds relies on Northern taking over the service from TfW Rail. TfW Rail aren't going to want to run services from North Wales to Leeds (via the slow route) and I doubt the PTEs would want them taking that service, as they have no influence over TfW Rail.

Also on the point of TfW Rail I've been informed their rights to serve the airport would end next year anyway, so the consultation sounds like their rights aren't being renewed.