Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[peters]

Does sound like the Warrington North MP uses the train.

“That’s why I wholeheartedly oppose this proposal and will fight to maintain the current service provision of two trains serving Padgate per hour."

MP to fight proposals to cut Padgate rail services

WARRINGTON North MP Charlotte Nichols has vowed to fight proposals to cut rail services from Padgate.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

 

[Hey 3]

Is it me reading option A wrong or is it suggesting that the Scotland-Manchester service would only run off peak? If so that is a retrograde step.

Option A says that Manchester Airport- Scotland trains would run via Eccles, Chat Moss, Parkside, Golborne, Wigan NW in the peak and off peak the trains would run via Salford Crescent, Bolton, Lostock , Chorley and Euxton

I personally think the passenger figures at Greenfield and Mossley don't justify half-hourly services outside of peak times if providing them causes a detriment to other areas. When I lived in Mossley, outside of peak times there'd be maybe an handful of users.

For example, Greenfield is 12 miles from Manchester, with a frequent direct bus route to Manchester and the metrolink close by. On the other hand Wigan and Golborne are 24 and 19 miles from Manchester respectively. Neither have a bus route to Manchester and the closest metrolink is about 12 miles away.

Yes the Manchester Metrolink is "close by" isnt it
And also Golborne has a bus to Manchester off peak only(the 34 from Bryn to Manchester).
As Wigan MP Lisa Nandy said, the case for Golborne railway station relies on the Barrow-in-Furness/Windemere to Manchester Airport via Wigan NW, Parkside, Astley, Chat Moss and Eccles service. I don't see Avanti stopping their London via Birmingham/Trent Valley towards Scotland services at Golborne or TPE stopping in the peak when the Manchester Airport to Scotland trains are routed back(in the peak only) to their post Chat Moss electrification-pre Manchester-Preston via Bolton and Chorley(aka Bolton-Chorley-Preston line), nor TPE stoppinh their 1tpd Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central service that is routed via Parkside West curve and Jn and Northern stopping another 1tpd that runs from Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western(albeit via Parkside West curve and Jn again) at Golborne

I personally want Option A as it involves rerouting of Scottish services(in the peak) to Chat Moss and Wigan NW but I would tweak it and make sure Cleethorpes/Doncaster/Sheffield and Stockport retains a direct connection the airport

 

[Watershed]

I would tweak it and make sure Cleethorpes/Doncaster/Sheffield and Stockport retains a direct connection the airport

Right, so who do you propose loses 1tph to Manchester to accommodate that?

Having a service that reverses at Piccadilly is an operational nightmare in just about every way. Flat crossing of at least one other line in each direction (for most platform/line combinations). Twice as many paths needed for one train. Detaching and attaching required at Picc to make the Airport platforming work. You've got to have a mighty big market to justify that.

Cleethorpes, Doncaster etc. to the Airport have got to be very marginal markets - in the thousands a year I'd have thought. Hardly a great reason for causing that level of upset.

Sheffield to the Airport is more arguable, and probably in line with Liverpool to the Airport, but it shouldn't come at the cost of ensuring that all the GM suburban stations have 2tph, roughly evenly spaced, into Manchester. Particularly when a similar level of connectivity, and journey time, can still be delivered if you have a reliable and frequent connection to the Airport.

As for Stockport, it'd have to be a pretty unusual set of circumstances to justify going to the Airport by train! The fast bus does it in 15 minutes, and most people will simply drive (although parking costs are a consideration for such a short journey).

 

[Starmill]

Having a service that reverses at Piccadilly is an operational nightmare in just about every way. Flat crossing of at least one other line in each direction (for most platform/line combinations)

You only need one crossing move either going in or coming out, and it's not particularly difficult. The move from Manchester Airport via Ardwick was rather tricker and this was achieved along with the one via Stockport for years on end without any specific issues or attention paid to it. And that was also in addition to the really bad crossing move from Castlefield to Ardwick happening regularly. There are still fewer trains using the main shed now than then too.

Detaching and attaching required at Picc to make the Airport platforming work.

While this is true it's a bit questionable if it's actually because of the services from Cleethorpes. Their 6 car diagrams went to Manchester Airport for years without problems. They only had to start dropping a unit off because of the non-standard lengths of the other rolling stock introduced.

 

[Hey 3]

Right, so who do you propose loses 1tph to Manchester to accommodate that?

Having a service that reverses at Piccadilly is an operational nightmare in just about every way. Flat crossing of at least one other line in each direction (for most platform/line combinations). Twice as many paths needed for one train. Detaching and attaching required at Picc to make the Airport platforming work. You've got to have a mighty big market to justify that.

Cleethorpes, Doncaster etc. to the Airport have got to be very marginal markets - in the thousands a year I'd have thought. Hardly a great reason for causing that level of upset.

Sheffield to the Airport is more arguable, and probably in line with Liverpool to the Airport, but it shouldn't come at the cost of ensuring that all the GM suburban stations have 2tph, roughly evenly spaced, into Manchester. Particularly when a similar level of connectivity, and journey time, can still be delivered if you have a reliable and frequent connection to the Airport.

As for Stockport, it'd have to be a pretty unusual set of circumstances to justify going to the Airport by train! The fast bus does it in 15 minutes, and most people will simply drive (although parking costs are a consideration for such a short journey).

I propose off peak, Redcar and Newcastle services should start at Victoria

And off peak Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Oxford Road gets cut to 1tph(so North Wales services get a path to the Airport)

 

[Watershed]

I propose off peak, Redcar and Newcastle services should start at Victoria

So Huddersfield, Leeds and York should lose their Airport service in lieu of Sheffield, Doncaster and Cleethorpes?

Of course, contrary to what many politicians argue, none of these places have a God-given right to a direct Airport train. But if you are going to remove a service, surely you can see that it makes sense to remove the service that benefits the least number of passengers, and that is the most operationally limiting/challenging?

And off peak Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Oxford Road gets cut to 1tph(so North Wales services get a path to the Airport)

Is it really more important for the good citizens of Chester, Bangor etc. to have a direct train to the Airport for their annual holidays, than for Urmston etc. to have a usable service for daily commuters into the city?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I propose off peak, Redcar and Newcastle services should start at Victoria

And off peak Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Oxford Road gets cut to 1tph(so North Wales services get a path to the Airport)

And the tail would be wagging the dog again. The best thing about Option C is that that situation, which has misguidedly been the case since the Airport branch opened, is largely reversed, with reliable local services prioritised as they should be.

 

[Hey 3]

So Huddersfield, Leeds and York should lose their Airport service in lieu of Sheffield, Doncaster and Cleethorpes?

Of course, contrary to what many politicians argue, none of these places have a God-given right to a direct Airport train. But if you are going to remove a service, surely you can see that it makes sense to remove the service that benefits the least number of passengers, and that is the most operationally limiting/challenging?

It is true that it is a bit challenging to cross from normally "Pic" P9 to the WCML but I said off peak the lose their services(at Manchester Victoria you can just get a tram or walk to Manchester Piccadilly(to get to the airport)
And yes, I am waiting for someone to say that their granny doesn't like changing trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

And yes, I am waiting for someone to say that their granny doesn't like changing trains

To which the answer is that if you can walk the considerable distance through the elevated tunnel to the terminal from the station, you can manage a quick change at Piccadilly. Anyone who can't isn't going to use the train for this journey to begin with.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The diagramatic maps don't indicate how evenly spaced services are, but none of them look particularly sensible to me. Personally I think Manchester - Cleethorpes should remain with TPE, which would mean option A, but I'm not in favour of it going through to the airport. Of the three options presented, I think A is also the most sensible for the TfW service, although I note that TfW's peak extra is lost in all three options and in a world without franchise silo-ing should not terminate at Stalybridge.

 

[Glenn1969]

Or they are going to do what I do and arrange assistance to get them through the Airport. But I get that there have to be compromises and still prefer Option C

 

[Watershed]

It is true that it is a bit challenging to cross from normally "Pic" P9 to the WCML but I said off peak the lose their services(at Manchester Victoria you can just get a tram or walk to Manchester Piccadilly(to get to the airport)

On that basis Sheffield passengers are in a much better position than Leeds etc. passengers, if they don't have an Airport service. So why should they keep their Airport service when Leeds passengers face much greater inconvenience if they lose theirs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The diagramatic maps don't indicate how evenly spaced services are, but none of them look particularly sensible to me. Personally I think Manchester - Cleethorpes should remain with TPE, which would mean option A, but I'm not in favour of it going through to the airport. Of the three options presented, I think A is also the most sensible for the TfW service, although I note that TfW's peak extra is lost in all three options and in a world without franchise silo-ing should not terminate at Stalybridge.

That's an error on the consultation document - in all options that service (be it from Manchester or Liverpool) will remain with TPE.

 

[Glenn1969]

Are we sure given that the Liverpool service they are merging it with is currently a Northern service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we sure given that the Liverpool service they are merging it with is currently a Northern service?

Yes, they have stated that it was an error and the document has been corrected if you re-download it.

 

[Hey 3]

On that basis Sheffield passengers are in a much better position than Leeds etc. passengers, if they don't have an Airport service. So why should they keep their Airport service when Leeds passengers face much greater inconvenience if they lose theirs?

Again, I said TPE services to Leeds and beyond would start at Victoria off peak(in the peak they run to the airport and also Cleethorpes would have an off peak extension to the airport

 

[Watershed]

Again, I said TPE services to Leeds and beyond would start at Victoria off peak(in the peak they run to the airport and also Cleethorpes would have an off peak extension to the airport

Yes, so Leeds-Airport passengers (of which there are many more than Cleethorpes-Airport pax) would have to change twice, or endure a very slow Metrolink journey. Whereas Cleethorpes passengers would only have to change once.

 

[peters]

I propose off peak, Redcar and Newcastle services should start at Victoria

And off peak Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Oxford Road gets cut to 1tph(so North Wales services get a path to the Airport)

That would make connections difficult between South Manchester services and North TPE services and would go against the standardisation principles of options B and C. They'll be plenty of Manchester Airport services from Manchester Piccadilly so South TPE services terminating at Piccadilly will cause less inconvenience to passengers than terminating Newcastle services at Victoria.

What do mean about Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Oxford Road getting cut to 1tph to create a path to the airport? If you mean the stopper via Warrington Central then that doesn't go to Piccadilly or the airport anyway. If you mean the express which goes to the airport then there's only 1tph. If you mean there's two Liverpool to Manchester Airport services an hour currently, they run on two different lines serving two different markets. Someone from Liverpool probably won't get an all-stops service via Rainhill to get to the airport, anymore than someone would use the Northern service to get from Sheffield to Manchester.

Given the journey times I think there's more likely to be people commuting between Huddersfield and the airport or that part of south Manchester, than people from Sheffield.

 

[Hey 3]

Yes, so Leeds-Airport passengers (of which there are many more than Cleethorpes-Airport pax) would have to change twice, or endure a very slow Metrolink journey. Whereas Cleethorpes passengers would only have to change once.

If paths are available, keep the Newcastle-Manchester Airport service and truncate Redcar to Vic off peak (Peak Redcar Centrals would go to Ringway in the peaks P1 and P2 at Vic, also off peak Cleethorpes to the Manchester/Ringway airport, peak Cleethorpes services go to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central,off peaks would run to Ringway

If paths are available, keep the Newcastle-Manchester Airport service and truncate Redcar to Vic off peak (Peak Redcar Centrals would go to Ringway in the peaks P1 and P2 at Vic, also off peak Cleethorpes to the Manchester/Ringway airport, peak Cleethorpes services go to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central,off peaks would run to Ringway

As in off peak,the Redcar Central service would use the bays at vic

 

[BayPaul]

If paths are available, keep the Newcastle-Manchester Airport service and truncate Redcar to Vic off peak (Peak Redcar Centrals would go to Ringway in the peaks P1 and P2 at Vic, also off peak Cleethorpes to the Manchester/Ringway airport, peak Cleethorpes services go to Liverpool Lime Street via Warrington Central,off peaks would run to Ringway


As in off peak,the Redcar Central service would use the bays at vic

I think messing around with different service patterns peak and off peak for an airport is really stupid - it would be very confusing for a passenger who got a direct train to the airport in the peak to find out when s/he lands in the off peak that there is no direct train. I really don't think your plan gives anything but disadvantages compared to the proposed ones.

 

[James90012]

Plus in that example, Middlesbrough to Airport is the long established service. I don't see why you would replace that with Newcastle to Airport when that line's established service is the Liverpool, with the Man Air additional.

 

[Watershed]

Plus in that example, Middlesbrough to Airport is the long established service. I don't see why you would replace that with Newcastle to Airport when that line's established service is the Liverpool, with the Man Air additional.

The whole point of the exercise is not to be constrained by historic service patterns. Of course many of these patterns are still perfectly reasonable, but things change, and when the infrastructure favours one particular pattern it doesn't make sense to dismiss it just because of history.

I'm not sure whether people are aware of just how short the bays at Victoria are - 96 and 111m. You can't fit any of the Nova trains in there, nor a double 185. So terminating at Victoria is inherently going to involve problems of some description.

 

[Purple Orange]

Could the Huddersfield & Hull TPE services in to Piccadilly not go in to Victoria, then swing around the chord calling at Oxford Road & Piccadilly before going to the Airport? It seems like those services are suited to the Styal Line far more than the Newcastle & Middlesbrough services, which could go in to Piccadilly if they can’t still be accommodated at Victoria.

The whole point of the exercise is not to be constrained by historic service patterns. Of course many of these patterns are still perfectly reasonable, but things change, and when the infrastructure favours one particular pattern it doesn't make sense to dismiss it just because of history.

I'm not sure whether people are aware of just how short the bays at Victoria are - 96 and 111m. You can't fit any of the Nova trains in there, nor a double 185. So terminating at Victoria is inherently going to involve problems of some description.

There will come a day when those bays have no use for anything. Commuter routes in to Manchester will eventually grow to be a minimum 6-car service, which necessitates using the through platforms or having the bays extended somehow.

 

[Watershed]

There will come a day when those bays have no use for anything. Commuter routes in to Manchester will eventually grow to be a minimum 6-car service, which necessitates using the through platforms or having the bays extended somehow.

I'm not sure how soon the Calder Valley etc. will need more than 4x23m coaches, but yes, Victoria is certainly somewhere that will eventually require a rethink. The bays are also on the 'wrong' side of the layout - the only service they could be used for without causing a conflict would be the Huddersfield stopper.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That's an error on the consultation document - in all options that service (be it from Manchester or Liverpool) will remain with TPE.

Fair enough; I still think there should be one Liverpool - Sheffield and the other fast Sheffield service should terminate at Piccadilly to avoid having to cross over to Castlefield or the airport and allow Liverpool - Manchester Airport to be routed via Warrington Central (which seems to be the least conflicting way to get between Liverpool and Manchester Airport). The Warrington Central route gives you no choice but to go through Castlefield and Castlefield seems to lend itself to Airport services being on the right side of the formation for that.

There will come a day when those bays have no use for anything. Commuter routes in to Manchester will eventually grow to be a minimum 6-car service, which necessitates using the through platforms or having the bays extended somehow.

Would extending them be hard to do?

I'm not sure how soon the Calder Valley etc. will need more than 4x23m coaches, but yes, Victoria is certainly somewhere that will eventually require a rethink. The bays are also on the 'wrong' side of the layout - the only service they could be used for without causing a conflict would be the Huddersfield stopper.

If they were lengthened, surely they could be used for any service from the Ashton-under-Lyne/Stalybridge direction without conflict. That said, I think anything from Ashton-under-Lyne/Stalybridge could also go through platforms 3/4 at Man. Vic. in order to reach the Ordsall chord and Chat Moss without conflicting with anything other than trains between Salford Crescent and Castlefield.

 

[Killingworth]

The diagramatic maps don't indicate how evenly spaced services are, but none of them look particularly sensible to me. Personally I think Manchester - Cleethorpes should remain with TPE, which would mean option A, but I'm not in favour of it going through to the airport. Of the three options presented, I think A is also the most sensible for the TfW service, although I note that TfW's peak extra is lost in all three options and in a world without franchise silo-ing should not terminate at Stalybridge.

Detail and devils! (TPE are supposed to be keeping the Cleethorpes - Manchester, extended to Liverpool, service.)

As a user of the Sheffield - Manchester service I'd agree with it terminating at Piccadilly, and would prefer that bearing in mind that only 5-10% of passengers ever went on to the airport and even less will now. But every little change made to the complex knitting around Manchester has consequential knock on effects.

Where would the other half of the proposed Liverpool - Cleethorpes service go? It's probably impractical to stop it at Stockport. Carry on as now to the Airport? Suits me. I go to Liverpool more often than the Airport and am happy to change for either if necessary - but are there still paths to the Airport and a platform available on arrival if we're trying to clear congested corridors?

Is there platform space for a permanently terminating Cleethorpes service at Piccadilly after all these changes ?

By 2023 a new hourly 3rd fast or semi-fast service is due to start between Sheffield and Manchester (probably wishful thinking after Covid) and will need a platform somewhere.

 

[peters]

By 2023 a new hourly 3rd fast or semi-fast service is due to start between Sheffield and Manchester (probably wishful thinking after Covid) and will need a platform somewhere.

Probably safe to conclude that isn't happening anymore until more platforms are built at Piccadilly, like some of the changes proposed for 2017 and 2019. With the exception of peak time extras it doesn't make sense to have two services half an hour apart and then a third service running at any random time it can be fitted in. For peak time maybe the suggested Wigan to Hazel Grove could be extended to Sheffield to provide some extra peak time capacity?

 

[Greybeard33]

Of the three options presented, I think A is also the most sensible for the TfW service, although I note that TfW's peak extra is lost in all three options and in a world without franchise silo-ing should not terminate at Stalybridge.

TfW's peak extras to Piccadilly have already been lost. From the consultation document:

20. A couple of initial ‘quick wins’ were identified by the taskforce and were implemented at the December 2020 timetable change. This involved Transport for Wales (TfW) services from North Wales and Chester via Warrington Bank Quay which often caused delay when terminating at Manchester Piccadilly. From December the service moved to a common all-day pattern of running through to Manchester Airport. Although this has meant the loss of an additional peak service, station stopping patterns have been adjusted to ensure there is sufficient capacity for passengers for Chester and North Wales in the peak.

21. In addition, the taskforce agreed that when TransPennine Express reinstated its service from Newcastle to Manchester it should terminate at Victoria rather than continue round the Ordsall Chord to the Airport.

The Northern peak Leeds - Ellesmere Port services have been diverted to Chester to replace the TfW extras.

 

[earthmover]

The Manchester Recovery Taskforce plan effects the whole of the region. It looks like Hull services are the poor relation. I find it strange why there is no Liverpool to Hull fast service to offer an alternative to the M62? A journey time of around 2 hours 30 minutes? Would that be good use of a train. Despite being a key city in the region, I would imagine that these plans were first drafted before the ideas of 'levelling up' were announced by the Government. In the plans, there are no options for Hull services apart from terminating at Piccadilly and with options B and C adding local stops all day between Huddersfield and Stalybridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Manchester Recovery Taskforce plan effects the whole of the region. It looks like Hull services are the poor relation. I find it strange why there is no Liverpool to Hull fast service to offer an alternative to the M62?

Is there actually demand for that? The M62 is of course not only used for Liverpool to Hull journeys, but a load of overlapping intermediate trips.