Is there any case where 2tph Leeds to Chester via Calder Valley and Warrington could extend to Llandudno? Means 2tph from the Calder Valley west of Manchester, as planned, as well as no silly Mid-Cheshire line TfW ’service’
I don't know the answers to your questions on whether there would be platform space, but yes the 'other half' I think would be directed down the airport line. It seems sensible to try and keep routes seperate and avoid crossing each other on the flat, with a few exceptions to maintain through links where there are major flows. Obviously there may be issues with platform space and pathing given the interfaces most services will have with others elsewhere, but that means virtually everything through platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly running to either Manchester Airport or Styal (and beyond) and zero services between the Airport/Styal and Piccadilly platforms 1-12. For Castlefield, the only obvious 'major flow' that needs an exception is 1tph between Liverpool and Sheffield (I'm probably quite clueless as to what the main flows are, so from my point of view I don't care if this carries to to Nottingham/Grantham/Norwich or to Cleethorpes). Is there any other reason for Castlefield to have services towards Stockport?Where would the other half of the proposed Liverpool - Cleethorpes service go? It's probably impractical to stop it at Stockport. Carry on as now to the Airport? Suits me. I go to Liverpool more often than the Airport and am happy to change for either if necessary - but are there still paths to the Airport and a platform available on arrival if we're trying to clear congested corridors?
Is there platform space for a permanently terminating Cleethorpes service at Piccadilly after all these changes ?
This is the sort of thing I was getting at by saying "in a world without franchise silo-ing" earlier. To avoid crossing moves, the right thing to do with most services from Chat Moss is to route them through platforms 3/4 at Manchester Victoria an on towards Ashton-under-Lyne/Stalybridge. However, in an ideal world I think the TfW service should be a fast from Bangor (Caernarfon) or Holyhead to Hull, Scarborough or Saltburn replacing one of the TPEs east of Manchester Victoria.Is there any case where 2tph Leeds to Chester via Calder Valley and Warrington could extend to Llandudno? Means 2tph from the Calder Valley west of Manchester, as planned, as well as no silly Mid-Cheshire line TfW ’service’
Stockport is closer (as the crow flies at least) to Manchester Airport than Hazel Grove is; wouldn't a bus/taxi direct to the airport from Stockport be faster (and not slow down passengers between Sheffield and central Manchester by adding stops)?Please can Sheffield people trade their hourly direct link to Manchester Airport with half hourly stops at Hazel Grove.
A bus/taxi direct to the airport from Hazel Grove would be faster and more convenient than any train(direct or not).
Faster journey time between Sheffield station and Airport terminals particularly 1 and 3.
The AA says it takes 16 mins to cover the 8.4 miles from Hazel Grove station to Terminal 1.
Drop off at terminals rather than bus/coach/tram/train terminal.
Using the A555 would avoid all the congestion on the motorways and A6.
No time penalty incurred by other passengers by stopping at Hazel Grove(benefit of option B and C)
Drop off and pick up 10m from the 'to Sheffield platform(2)'*, lift and stepped ramp on the
'from Sheffield platform(1)'.
*Could all Buxton and terminating traffic to used platform 1, all to/from Sheffield traffic to could use platform 2?
The AA says it takes 16 mins to cover the 8.4 miles from Hazel Grove station to Terminal 1....
Stockport is closer (as the crow flies at least) to Manchester Airport than Hazel Grove is; wouldn't a bus/taxi direct to the airport from Stockport be faster (and not slow down passengers between Sheffield and central Manchester by adding stops)?
Although it's difficult to imagine ScotRail or TfW joining a reborn British Rail, I wouldn't rule such a service out just because it might have to change TOCs mid-journey. That wouldn't be unheard of.This is the sort of thing I was getting at by saying "in a world without franchise silo-ing" earlier. To avoid crossing moves, the right thing to do with most services from Chat Moss is to route them through platforms 3/4 at Manchester Victoria an on towards Ashton-under-Lyne/Stalybridge. However, in an ideal world I think the TfW service should be a fast from Bangor (Caernarfon) or Holyhead to Hull, Scarborough or Saltburn replacing one of the TPEs east of Manchester Victoria.
Not since the Eastern Link Road opened.Stockport is closer (as the crow flies at least) to Manchester Airport than Hazel Grove is; wouldn't a bus/taxi direct to the airport from Stockport be faster (and not slow down passengers between Sheffield and central Manchester by adding stops)?
I don't know the answers to your questions on whether there would be platform space, but yes the 'other half' I think would be directed down the airport line. It seems sensible to try and keep routes seperate and avoid crossing each other on the flat, with a few exceptions to maintain through links where there are major flows. Obviously there may be issues with platform space and pathing given the interfaces most services will have with others elsewhere, but that means virtually everything through platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly running to either Manchester Airport or Styal (and beyond) and zero services between the Airport/Styal and Piccadilly platforms 1-12. For Castlefield, the only obvious 'major flow' that needs an exception is 1tph between Liverpool and Sheffield (I'm probably quite clueless as to what the main flows are, so from my point of view I don't care if this carries to to Nottingham/Grantham/Norwich or to Cleethorpes). Is there any other reason for Castlefield to have services towards Stockport?
This is the sort of thing I was getting at by saying "in a world without franchise silo-ing" earlier. To avoid crossing moves, the right thing to do with most services from Chat Moss is to route them through platforms 3/4 at Manchester Victoria an on towards Ashton-under-Lyne/Stalybridge. However, in an ideal world I think the TfW service should be a fast from Bangor (Caernarfon) or Holyhead to Hull, Scarborough or Saltburn replacing one of the TPEs east of Manchester Victoria.
Stockport is closer (as the crow flies at least) to Manchester Airport than Hazel Grove is; wouldn't a bus/taxi direct to the airport from Stockport be faster (and not slow down passengers between Sheffield and central Manchester by adding stops)?
The AA says it takes 16 mins to cover the 8.4 miles from Hazel Grove station to Terminal 1.
The AA says it takes 15 mins to cover the 7.9 miles from Stockport station to Terminal 1 Via M60 and M56
Stockport is 0.5 miles and a minute closer.
But:
Add on the 8 minutes train journey time from Hazel Grove to Stockport.
Add on the X minutes and difficulty of getting from the platforms at Stockport to the taxi or minicab rank.
Add on the X minutes for congestion on the A6 in Stockport, motorway junctions, on the motorways and on the airport approach.
As important is the 10m level access to or ramp/lift to the platforms at Hazel Grove.
Not since the Eastern Link Road opened.
Yes. Option C sends 2tph from Castlefield towards Stockport in order to clear paths for an even half hourly stopping service to all the stations on the Styal line. This is provided by 2tph from the Piccadilly main shed to Crewe, instead of the mess of Castlefield services skip stopping at irregular intervals in the current timetable.For Castlefield, the only obvious 'major flow' that needs an exception is 1tph between Liverpool and Sheffield (snip). Is there any other reason for Castlefield to have services towards Stockport?
I think the point was that Hull has more demand for destinations west of Leeds than Scarborough does. A Scarborough - York and Hull - Liverpool service would also be operationally superior. However, removing Scarborough to Leeds through trains is politically probably intolerable.Is there actually demand for that? The M62 is of course not only used for Liverpool to Hull journeys, but a load of overlapping intermediate trips.
I think the point was that Hull has more demand for destinations west of Leeds than Scarborough does. A Scarborough - York and Hull - Liverpool service would also be operationally superior. However, removing Scarborough to Leeds through trains is politically probably intolerable.
Where’s the best place to post my Manchester service ideas (pre and post high speed)? Would quite like to sum it all up in 1 post but I doubt here is the place.
Yes, there's no debate about that though. The question being asked is over the second Liverpool - Manchester train.But all 3 of the options include a Manchester-Hull service, so we're just talking about which one extends to Liverpool, and TBH the end to end demand won't be huge with either, so just pick whichever is operationally more convenient. It's Liverpool-Newcastle that is the one that's useful to have as a through service where end to end demand will exist.
Is there any case where 2tph Leeds to Chester via Calder Valley and Warrington could extend to Llandudno? Means 2tph from the Calder Valley west of Manchester, as planned, as well as no silly Mid-Cheshire line TfW ’service’
But how is that relevant to this consultation? All three options have 5tph from Leeds to Manchester via Huddersfield, of which 1tph terminates at Piccadilly and 4tph go to Victoria, with 2tph continuing to Liverpool and at least 1tph to the Airport. Whether or not the destinations east of Leeds can be swapped will depend on the constraints imposed by the ECML timetable, which will be the same for all three options. The consultation document says:Yes, there's no debate about that though. The question being asked is over the second Liverpool - Manchester train.
24. The other key work progressing is the future service pattern on the East Coast Mainline. Decisions emerging from this work may impact on the service patterns from the North East and Yorkshire to Manchester and Liverpool. The Manchester Recovery Task Force work is based on the existing service patterns. These could change in the future, and the two projects are working closely to ensure their conclusions are compatible.
Extend the Halifax-Hull train which would also give Bradford and Calder Valley the Liverpool service we were promised 7 years ago?
I pointed it out because it seemed that Bletchleyite was suggesting in response to a query over this point that there would only need to be one Leeds to Liverpool fast train per hour. From my own point of view I don't think it matters really at all where the trains go east of Leeds.But how is that relevant to this consultation? All three options have 5tph from Leeds to Manchester via Huddersfield, of which 1tph terminates at Piccadilly and 4tph go to Victoria, with 2tph continuing to Liverpool and at least 1tph to the Airport. Whether or not the destinations east of Leeds can be swapped will depend on the constraints imposed by the ECML timetable, which will be the same for all three options. The consultation document says:
I pointed it out because it seemed that Bletchleyite was suggesting in response to a query over this point that there would only need to be one Leeds to Liverpool fast train per hour. From my own point of view I don't think it matters really at all where the trains go east of Leeds.
Liverpool - Newcastle definitely the most popular pairing of the suggested routings, especially amongst stags, hens and party goers!I would say Newcastle is a more useful destination than any of the other north TPE destinations. I don't think (and that was what I was aiming at) that there is any specific benefit in Liverpool-Hull vs Liverpool-Scarborough, so the choice between those should really just be whichever is operationally more convenient.
Liverpool - Newcastle definitely the most popular pairing of the suggested routings, especially amongst stags, hens and party goers!
I doubt it. There aren't that many trains along the North Wales coast, and they're split (or planned to be split) between Liverpool, Manchester, London, Birmingham and Cardiff (and beyond). If you sent 2 trains an hour to Manchester, there wouldn't be much space for anything else.Is there any case where 2tph Leeds to Chester via Calder Valley and Warrington could extend to Llandudno? Means 2tph from the Calder Valley west of Manchester, as planned, as well as no silly Mid-Cheshire line TfW ’service’
Do you think so? By my reckoning, option C is pretty poor for people going from Chester to Warrington or Manchester. Compared with the "current" service, the fastest train to Warrington & Manchester Victoria is slowed down (with extra stops at Helsby and Frodsham). The direct trains to Oxford Road and Manchester Airport have gone (you may be able to change, but there's no saying how much that will delay your journey without a timetable). There is a direct train to Manchester Picadilly, but a non-stop train on that route (such as this) can easily be slower than one via Warrington with the standard TfW stops (like this). It may be faster for someone going to Stockport, but it's impossible to tell from the consultation document.For those travelling from Chester or somewhere where a change at Chester is required e.g. Wrexham or Hooton then option C is best as that offers 4 trains to Manchester each hour including a semi-fast to Piccadilly, rather than the 3 offered under options A and B which only offer a slow stopper to Piccadilly.
As a counterpoint, option C will make journeys from North Wales to Preston and Scotland more difficult. At present, the Llandudno (soon Bangor) to Manchester services go via Warrington BQ, offering connections with the WCML. This is often more convenient than going via Crewe, as that requires changing trains at Chester for most of the day.Whether it's 'silly' depends on what journey you are making. If you want to get from North Wales to Sheffield then the diversion via Stockport under option C will be useful and the diversion to Victoria under options A and B will make the journey more difficult to make.
I couldn't agree more. One of the really nice things about plan C in particular is it simplifies the rail network in Manchester so much, with nice regular times to the same station from each destination. Driving a token Pendolino through platforms 13/14 is ridiculous, even outside of the peak. Bolton gets a very nice regular service from Picadillly, with good changes onto the London service, that is a much, much better plan for the meantime. Once HS2 phase 2B, or other significant improvements appear in Manchester, that's the right time to be looking at new services like this.
This is only a problem because currently so many trains are diagrammed into these platforms, meaning most trains can only afford to be waiting at the platform for a couple minutes or less, before it delays the next arrival. With other services being diverted away from platforms 13/14, it will create bigger windows to potentially put a London service (such as the London-Manchester-Scotland idea mentioned above) through there and path it to wait the necessary few minutes for loading/unloading.
If it replaced both one of the existing Manchester-London services and the TPE Scotland service - thereby providing connections to Scotland for Stockport and one of Wilmslow or Macclesfield, and freeing up an Airport path, (which would allow the introduction of a second hourly stopper and therefore facilitate the removal of the random stops from the Northern and TfW fasts, simplifying the timetable significantly), all without needing more paths than currently - then I'd certainly be in favour of it.
But as an additional service - no, it's not needed.
I believe all three options, not just Option C, add stops to the (currently) faster services between Chester and Manchester via Warrington, in order to provide a 2tph frequency at the intermediate stations and provide a more even spacing between successive trains at the major stations.Do you think so? By my reckoning, option C is pretty poor for people going from Chester to Warrington or Manchester. Compared with the "current" service, the fastest train to Warrington & Manchester Victoria is slowed down (with extra stops at Helsby and Frodsham). The direct trains to Oxford Road and Manchester Airport have gone (you may be able to change, but there's no saying how much that will delay your journey without a timetable). There is a direct train to Manchester Picadilly, but a non-stop train on that route (such as this) can easily be slower than one via Warrington with the standard TfW stops (like this). It may be faster for someone going to Stockport, but it's impossible to tell from the consultation document.
Option B retains direct Chester - Airport trains but breaks the direct link between Chester and the Calder Valley - a change at Victoria is required. Plus the Chester via Warrington services remain inconveniently split between Piccadilly and Victoria, with only 1tph from each. Options A and C both have 2tph to Chester from Victoria.By contrast, option B appears to preserve both the Leeds and Manchester Airport trains as they are.
Is there actually demand for that? The M62 is of course not only used for Liverpool to Hull journeys, but a load of overlapping intermediate trips.
By my reckoning, option C is pretty poor for people going from Chester to Warrington or Manchester. Compared with the "current" service, the fastest train to Warrington & Manchester Victoria is slowed down (with extra stops at Helsby and Frodsham).
@kieron Option B sees North Wales trains going to Stalybridge after Victoria, which is why I made the example of Sheffield journeys. Under both options A and B it would involve 2 changes instead of 1 and the 'connecting trains' will only be hourly, so option A or B might add an hour or more to journey times.
The Manchester Airport trains are lost under all options and only C retains directs Piccadilly trains. I get they'll be slower and numerous people have made that point, which is why I picked up on faster North Wales to South Yorkshire journeys being a possibility.
@krus_aragon Agreed. Although, I've used the Warrington Bank Quay to Chester train in the past and it seemed almost everyone who get on westbound trains at Warrington Bank Quay got off at either Runcorn East or Chester. Both B and C enhance the service from Warrington to Runcorn East.
Option B retains TFW North Wales - Manchester Airport via Warrington Bank Quay.
It's the Northern Chester - Leeds service which reverts to Stalybridge.
for Grimsby and Cleethorpes the direct link to the airport is very convenient - I’ve used it myself and it is very good.