Glenn1969
Established Member
There isn't. It's just people on here suggesting alternatives that may or may not work
There's an interesting situation on UWCs in Wales, following the crash near Welshpool on the Cambrian last year.Do they? Are you sure?
Christine Booth, its level crossings risk advisor, said: "We are installing red and green lights to some of the highest risk private crossings and public footpath crossings across Wales to make them safer.
"This includes at Smith crossing in Powys and follows safety improvements already made at crossings such as Ty Gwyn and Pen Uchaf on the north Wales coast."
IMO a non starter.Nottingham-Liverpool could go via Denton, Victoria and the Chat Moss. In terms of the significance of the change, it wouldn't be all that different to rerouting the TfW service via Northwich.
There is one level crossing at Plemstall which is a private crossing which has an individual very high risk rating. Another near Hartford is the same as well as another private crossing at Lostock Gralam, the others fall in to the high individual category.The level crossing issues are likely to require crossing closures or bridge construction if they are to be resolved. In other words, (that part of) option C isn't something that can be delivered within relatively short timescales using the current infrastructure, which was the point of the entire exercise.
Whereas rerouting the EMR requires, at worst, a timetable change on the Chat Moss.
TRU should make a good amount of difference. Even just the current planned phase without touching Stalybridge-Huddersfield will bring Manchester-Leeds journey times down to 42 minutes; Manchester-Newcastle journey times down to 120 mins and Leeds-Newcastle down to 78 mins. That will certainly benefit city-centre to city-centre journeys but suburb-city centre on those routes may still be uncompetitive if frequency and the seemlessness of changing train is made difficult. Then we have M62 and M60 congestion to consider on the other side of the coin, but the round the houses Ordsall chord route for TPE needs to be stopped too. Only Northern - or GM Rail - should use the chord.
There's an interesting situation on UWCs in Wales, following the crash near Welshpool on the Cambrian last year.
Apparently that crossing is getting red/green lights to improve safety, and there are others getting the same treatment in North Wales.
Wales' level crossings need urgent safety changes, report says - BBC News
Maybe that is a solution to the problem with the Cheshire crossings.
And that, in a nutshell, is a fundamental problem of the railway.
It's a problem with all public transport unless you live near a station on a 125mph mainline and are going to somewhere right near another station on a 125mph mainline. HS2 will help, but I fear the "cram 'em in" approach of the railway fails to sell other benefits of it.
And rerouting the TfW service via Northwich would add significantly to the journey time, decreasing the value of the service by making it less competitive with road?
If it were operationally feasible, diverting the TfW service via Northwich would take around 70 minutes from Chester to Manchester, so the increase in journey time is relatively modest. It's the loss of intermediate stations that is the bigger issue in a sense.
Though the intermediate stations (Helsby etc.) would presumably get the Northern service as replacement, running at 2tph to Victoria (and probably more evenly spread than today, and not full of North Wales passengers on arrival).
I am in favour with that suggestion.
I would have Rochdale - Airport every 30 minutes, calling all stations.
Also, the CLC route via Warrington Central to be split in two halves, with Warrington Central - Airport every 30 minutes calling all stations, and the present Southport - Hunts Cross Merseyrail extended to Warrington Central every 15 minutes.
There's an interesting situation on UWCs in Wales, following the crash near Welshpool on the Cambrian last year.
Apparently that crossing is getting red/green lights to improve safety, and there are others getting the same treatment in North Wales.
Wales' level crossings need urgent safety changes, report says - BBC News
Maybe that is a solution to the problem with the Cheshire crossings.
There is one level crossing at Plemstall which is a private crossing which has an individual very high risk rating. Another near Hartford is the same as well as another private crossing at Lostock Gralam, the others fall in to the high individual category.
One of the ideas between option C is to put a consistent half-hourly (or better) stopping service on as many routes as possible, that includes Chester to Warrington Bank Quay. That doesn't include the Mid-Cheshire which doesn't need half-hourly services at stations like Mouldsworth and Ashley but does at stations like Knutsford, which is presumably part of the reason for the suggested TfW diversion.
Ah, missed that.You can travel on the route between Denton Jn and Ashton Moss Jn (just west of Ashton-under-Lyne); this goes over the top of the Hadfield Road just west of Guide Bridge.
My point is that removing the north Wales service from the Castlefield corridor by routing it into Victoria has less impact (in my relatively uninformed opinion admittedly) than diverting it via Altrincham or diverting the Nottingham service via Victoria. Sending the north Wales service into Victoria largely only impacts passengers for the airport - sending it via Altrincham impacts airport passengers plus everyone for central Manchester as well. Diverting the Nottingham service via Victoria impacts everyone for Liverpool.Losing trains from the Castlefield corridor is inevitably going to negatively impact somebody somewhere. The Options just move around who that is.
I'm not suggesting routing either Sheffield service into Victoria, personally I think one of them should terminate at Piccadilly and the other should continue to run to Liverpool via Warrington Central.Rail would become a less competitive option for Sheffield-Manchester if the fast service were split between Piccadilly and Victoria, and Warrington is a bigger market than Newton-le-Willows/Earlestown etc., so there are downsides to either move.
What other things should be considered then?Even if we consider just benefits for North Wales I don't think the journey time to Manchester is the only important consideration.
What other things should be considered then?
As a former commuter I can assure you that is IS Oxford Road they want as a final destination and a swap at Newton of two thirds"For Oxford Road" is not necessarily the same as "final destination Oxford Road". And for passengers who needed that side of the city, a same-platform connection is possible at Newton-le-Willows into the Liverpool-Oxford Road service in Option C.
Though the "Merseyrail argument" is that you serve them anyway, as that keeps it simple. Aughton Park and Town Green don't in any way justify 4tph, but it's easier to stop there as it keeps it all nice and simple.
It used to be more than half full leaving Chester. Add all the intermediate stations to Newton and it was standing and full. Two thirds decanted at Oxford Road. Assuming that people return to these services in numbers then things will get very busy at Newton in the Peak.But it wouldn't be two thirds because in the scheme of things Frodsham and Helsby are minor stations
+ Runcorn East?So it would be just those from Frodsham and Helsby who are the most affected
Chester passengers would still be able to access Castlefield via the diverted trains. Warrington passengers can go from Central. Earlestown and Newton passengers wouldn't need the change. So it would be just those from Frodsham and Helsby who are the most affected
Plus IMHO it will be some time before a full return to offices because for a lot of people some home working will still be desirable. It may never happen
Yes plus Runcorn East. The smaller market comment still applies given that combined annual usage of the 3 stations is less than 500,000 a year
It used to be more than half full leaving Chester. Add all the intermediate stations to Newton and it was standing and full. Two thirds decanted at Oxford Road. Assuming that people return to these services in numbers then things will get very busy at Newton in the Peak.
Thanks, that's a very good answer which raises alot of questions I don't have the answers to. What is the relative demand for Sale etc. versus central Manchester? I certainly don't know that - is there anyone who has the necessary data to answer that?Numerous things. Most importantly, the final destination of everyone travelling from North Wales. I don't mean the station, I mean the actual address so if they go to Piccadilly and then get a train to Stockport or tram to Old Trafford or Sale then they would be better off with the train being diverted via Altrincham. If they want connections to TPE then they would be better off with the train being diverted to Victoria.
Then there's people from England travelling to North Wales to consider. Where are they coming from and where are they travelling to?
If you're travelling from Rhyl to Leeds the journey time to Manchester has no relevance, there's no point arriving in Manchester 10 minutes earlier if it means a 25 minute connection instead of a 15 minute connection. That might even be a disadvantage on a cold day if the train is on time.
It was discussed at length when the TfW franchise was awarded. My interpretation, in a nutshell:It's mentioned earlier in the thread that Liverpool services will go to Llandudno, Manchester to Bangor while Cardiff will continue to go to Holyhead. Is there any logical reason for that or did someone at a desk in Cardiff decide on that without looking at actual and potential passenger flows? (That may be one for a new thread.)
Thanks, that's a very good answer which raises alot of questions I don't have the answers to. What is the relative demand for Sale etc. versus central Manchester? I certainly don't know that - is there anyone who has the necessary data to answer that?
> Cardiff-Holyhead is a politically required route, and has the (increased) First Class provision on it. Birmingham-Holyhead just fills up the alternate hours.
Yes, but seperate Crewe-Holyhead and Cardiff-Chester services would also do that.Without wishing to digress, I will say that People need to look at the Cardiff-Holyhead services as facilitating shorter journeys along the route too rather than end to end.
They facilitate trips on the North Wales Coast, link Chester and Wrexham with Shrewsbury and Hereford etc.
Yes, but seperate Crewe-Holyhead and Cardiff-Chester services would also do that.
A slight snag in using the ticket data will be that (unless something has changed very recently?) all longer-distance tickets to Manchester are booked to "Manchester Stations", whichever one of Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate or Victoria you actually use. Likewise all tickets from within Greater Manchester are booked to "Manchester Central Zone", so the destination station may not be immediately obvious.Trying to get back on topic, @Rhydgaled I'd be very surprised if the underlying analysis for the Castlefield options did not include a review of ticket sales data - this will illustrate the ticket origins and destinations of all the journeys/revenue on the relevant corridors coming into Manchester. It won't identify the precise door to door journey but certainly give a good indication of the relative value to the rail network as a whole of say stations west of Chester and stations west of Wigan on the stretch, say, between Deansgate and Oxford Road, including what proportion of journeys are beyond Manchester itself (eg to the Airport).
Trying to get back on topic, @Rhydgaled I'd be very surprised if the underlying analysis for the Castlefield options did not include a review of ticket sales data - this will illustrate the ticket origins and destinations of all the journeys/revenue on the relevant corridors coming into Manchester. It won't identify the precise door to door journey but certainly give a good indication of the relative value to the rail network as a whole of say stations west of Chester and stations west of Wigan on the stretch, say, between Deansgate and Oxford Road, including what proportion of journeys are beyond Manchester itself (eg to the Airport).
A slight snag in using the ticket data will be that (unless something has changed very recently?) all longer-distance tickets to Manchester are booked to "Manchester Stations", whichever one of Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate or Victoria you actually use. Likewise all tickets from within Greater Manchester are booked to "Manchester Central Zone", so the destination station may not be immediately obvious.
A slight snag in using the ticket data will be that (unless something has changed very recently?) all longer-distance tickets to Manchester are booked to "Manchester Stations", whichever one of Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate or Victoria you actually use. Likewise all tickets from within Greater Manchester are booked to "Manchester Central Zone", so the destination station may not be immediately obvious.