Manchester to Acrrington

[boing_uk]

Im sorry if this is covered in another thread, however I did do a search but came up with far too many threads to go through.

Is Manchester to Accrington via Preston a permitted route? Or does a Manchester Stations - Accrington ticket require a "via Preston" addage?

There was a situation on my train this morning and I want to know if the conductor was correct or not.

 

[John @ home]

Is Manchester to Accrington via Preston a permitted route?

No. Manchester Stations and Accrington share a common Routeing Point, Manchester Group. Hence

Common Routeing Points

If the origin and destination have a common routeing point, the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains short of the routeing point, unless an easement allows a longer alternative route.

I can't fiind a relevant Easement.

 

[tony_mac]

Manchester stations and Accrington share a routeing point, so the only permitted routes are the shortest route (and those within 3 miles) and direct trains.

Therefore 'Any Permitted' does not include via Preston.

Obviously, the 'route Preston' fare does allow travel via Preston, although there doesn't seem to be any definition of what the permitted routes might actually be for that.

 

[transportphoto]

Manchester stations and Accrington share a routeing point, so the only permitted routes are the shortest route (and those within 3 miles) and direct trains.

Therefore 'Any Permitted' does not include via Preston.

Obviously, the 'route Preston' fare does allow travel via Preston, although there doesn't seem to be any definition of what the permitted routes might actually be for that.

I would hazard a guess and say...

A valid route is any which is the shortest distance for the journey via the place as specified on the ticket as the route (in this case Preston), and any journey within 3 miles of that distance - avoiding doubling back etc...

 

[John @ home]

the 'route Preston' fare does allow travel via Preston, although there doesn't seem to be any definition of what the permitted routes might actually be for that.

Very interesting point, Tony.

In a case such as this, where a Manchester Stns - Accrington route Preston set of fares exist but Manchester Stns - Accrington via Preston is not a Permitted Route, the Instructions are:

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES

Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

The only sensible meaning I can take from the words "you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description" is that the passenger may choose to travel by any permitted route for a Manchester Stns - Preston journey, followed by any permitted route for a Preston - Accrington journey.

 

[boing_uk]

Why then, was the lady on the train on Friday morning clutching her print-out from Manchester which said change at Preston?

Nor was she the only person on the train. There were four other passengers on the train (not travelling with this lady either) that had travelled from Manchester and changed at Preston. One to Blackburn, one to Rishton and two (including the lady next to me) Accrington. All of whom had their tickets confiscated by the Guard (who I am minded to complain to Northern about anyway for a number of different reasons not solely related to his attitude to these passengers. The lady next to me was visibly upset at having her ticket confiscated).

Perhaps someone at Manchester is giving duff advice?

Im not arguing the fact that the routing guide says what is says; just why would four unconnected people all travelling in the same general direction all change at Preston? If it was just one person I could beleive it, but four?

 

[John @ home]

I am minded to complain to Northern ... just why would four unconnected people all travelling in the same general direction all change at Preston

Perhaps your complaint to Northern should suggest that their Manchester Stations - Accrington route Any Permitted ticket should be renamed "route Not Preston" to avoid unnecessary confusion.

 

[yorkie]

Nor was she the only person on the train. There were four other passengers on the train (not travelling with this lady either) that had travelled from Manchester and changed at Preston. One to Blackburn, one to Rishton and two (including the lady next to me) Accrington. All of whom had their tickets confiscated by the Guard (who I am minded to complain to Northern about anyway for a number of different reasons not solely related to his attitude to these passengers. The lady next to me was visibly upset at having her ticket confiscated).

If the ticket is confiscated, a receipt must be issued. Did he do that? If not, he has broken the rules.

If I saw him confiscating someone else's ticket, and I had the same one, I'd be tempted to refuse to hand it over and say "call BTP if you like" as I'd be fairly sure BTP would not be interested in someone with a valid ticket when they have real criminals to deal with.

Yes I would complain, I hope you got the name of the guard but if not Northern should be able to identify him from the roster diagrams.

Perhaps someone at Manchester is giving duff advice?

Im not arguing the fact that the routing guide says what is says; just why would four unconnected people all travelling in the same general direction all change at Preston? If it was just one person I could beleive it, but four?

Maybe a train was cancelled or something for changing at Preston to be recommended. The ticket booking sites allow it (both Thetrainline and Atos Origin) if you put via Preston. Anyone travelling with an itinerary indicating via Preston is valid irrespective of what the RG says.

 

[boing_uk]

If the ticket is confiscated, a receipt must be issued. Did he do that? If not, he has broken the rules.

No a receipt was not issued. In fact, it wasnt until she asked him "can I have me ticket back" that he said "No! You cant" before walking off to check more tickets.

There have been problems with this particular guard before though and some peculiar operating practices that I have never seen any other guard do. For instance, what are the rules governing what the guard should be doing after giving the right away signal?

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure exactly, but I think the guard has to look out of the train to check the train has departed safely.

The vast majority of Northern guards are fine, but it seems that the small minority that are bad, can be very bad

 

[Lampshade]

I think 'Any Permitted' just means via Bolton and Darwen. A really tricky one is Burnley, there are three different fares for Manchester Road: Preston, Hebden Bridge and Any Permitted - what other routes are there to class as 'Any Permitted'? Why not just call it "route Darwen" especially as National Rail Enquiries show Hebden Bridge as the quickest route, wonder how many that catches out :?

 

[yorkie]

I think 'Any Permitted' just means via Bolton and Darwen. A really tricky one is Burnley, there are three different fares for Manchester Road: Preston, Hebden Bridge and Any Permitted - what other routes are there to class as 'Any Permitted'? Why not just call it "route Darwen" especially as National Rail Enquiries show Hebden Bridge as the quickest route, wonder how many that catches out :?

Yes, it's ridiculous.

The excess is 15p if a SOR/SDR is held, or 60p if a CDR is held, to excess one-way.

If ATOC were sane, the least restrictive ticket would always be "Any Permitted" (and the RG would be amended accordingly to match), then Hebden Bridge could be renamed Not Preston, and Any Permitted could be renamed Darwen.

Everyone would know what each one meant and it would make sense. But that's not what ATOC want.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I'm not sure exactly, but I think the guard has to look out of the train to check the train has departed safely.
|

The rule which used to say the Guard had to look out has been removed from the rule book, although I understand Northern have issued a local instruction to say the Guard should stay by the door. Whether this is still in force I do not know, but there is no rule book requirement to now with power operated door stock.

Back to the original question, it is often easy to see how mistakes can be made as regards routeing. Many systems - including NRES and our on board Avantix machines just seem to advise on the quickest route and pay no attention to valid routes. This often means that an invalid route is given, even if a valid route is available but takes say 5 mins longer. Unless you have a good knowledge of these things - which to be honest most staff don't, let alone passengers - then it is easy to get it wrong.

There are 3 situations here, which when charging XS fares you have to consider differently.

a) Incorrect Route when the Route is clearly marked - ie Preston to Leeds Rte Burnley, or Bradford to Manchester Rte Halifax. These are regular ones I get almost daily. Most reasons for being off route are given as "well no one told me", which could well be true, but sadly this will warrant an XS as it is stated on the ticket. Where it gets tricky is when Rail staff have obviously given duff information. Eg a passenger the other week was travelling from Telford to Brough, with a ticket marked Rte Sheffield. There are no tickets for this journey which allow travel via Manchester and Leeds, yet the bloke was clutching a print out from a station (is Telford staffed?) which sent him Telford, Wolverhampton, Manchester, Brough - going no where near Sheffield. This is the fault of staff who should know better, but gate duff info. What do you do here? The ticket is clearly not valid - even though a permitted route journey was available about 30 mins later.

b) Tickets marked Any Permitted, which you would consider to be a perfectly sensible route, but isn't. Again often advised by staff incorrectly. Do you XS and charge again or not?

c) Routes which are clearly not logical, nor are they permitted. Eg Carlisle to Liverpool going via Skipton, Leeds, Huddersfield.

When encountering these you have to weigh up each situation individually. Sadly, in many cases, the passenger has been given duff information due to poor staff training, knowledge, attitude, or basic geography skills.

One of the most common ones I get now, which is a REAL pain in the bum is the new fares Northern introduced - Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield etc to Manchester Rte Hebden Bridge. They are slightly cheaper than the Any Permitted ones, and offer different fare options such as SDR, but a lot of people have them and want to go the fast way - thus wasting my time and effort doing lots of silly little 50p type XS fares. From a TOCs point of view this must surely distort to allocation of monies as TPE for example will get signifacantly less of the Rte Hebden Bridge fare than they will the Rte Any Permitted fare - even though most of the Hebden Bridge fares are being used direct via Hud anyway!

 

[yorkie]

If the TOCs adopted a common sense, consistent approach led by a revolutionised, sensible ATOC (ha!) this would not be a big problem. For example:

- All flows to have an Any Permitted fare (not just one named route, for example via Sheffield as mentioned above)
- The Any Permitted fare should always be the fare that offers the most routes (and the RG to reflect that)
- Cheaper fares not to be offered when they are only a few pence cheaper, due to the amount of faffing about required for low value excesses. Cheaper routes should be significantly cheaper or simply not offered to keep it simple.
- When there are many routes e.g. Hebden Bridge / Darwen / Preston, the ticket that is more restrictive than Any Permitted but also allowes another, cheaper route, should be named NOT <expensive route> to avoid confusion
- TOC specific fares to be made route-specific, where at all possible.
- Allow TOC specific fares to be excessed (the excuse about revenue allocation does not hold water!)

 

[boing_uk]

The problem for passengers I have found is that it is not easy to find out which route is permitted.

Logic would say to me that a train from Manchester to Blackburn via Preston should be permitted as in some circumstances, it is quicker to go that way. Indeed National Rail Enquiries website does direct you that way sometimes, or at least it has done for me in the past.

For your ordinary passenger, the routing guide is simply not user friendly at all. I would have thought in this day and age there could be a flash version of it. Maybe even an App.

"I want to go from x" <clicky> "To y" <clicky> and wee tiddly de dee a little map pops up showing which routes you are permitted to go by. Sure would be helpful for those situations where you have an indignant guard, with few customer service skills, who confiscates tickets from unsuspecting passengers.

With regards to the doors thing: yes, it was right-away and then left the doors straight away at every stop. I have never seen another Northern guard do that ever, regardless of which part of the train the guard was in. Also, at Pleasington, the guard made the people waiting on the platform and the passengers wanting to get off, use the rear door only for some bizarre reason, literally shouting at them to go to the back of the train. But only at Pleasington. Which was quite odd in itself, let alone the rest of his behaviour.

 

[WatcherZero]

So instead of having to refer to the book a app or website which displayed allowable routes on a map... some smart person may make some money on that one.

 

[boing_uk]

In that case, I claim my prize.