Manchester to Manchester Airport single

[neilmc]

This should be pretty basic, right? A friend has ranted on Facebook that he was quoted £2.90 on his phone app but was charged £5.40 at the ticket office. I suspect that this is because Northern would allow him to buy an Advance via phone app right up to the train departure time, but is the £5.40 because the booking office is run by Virgin who don't want to sell Northern-only tickets?

 

[_toommm_]

This should be pretty basic, right? A friend has ranted on Facebook that he was quoted £2.90 on his phone app but was charged £5.40 at the ticket office. I suspect that this is because Northern would allow him to buy an Advance via phone app right up to the train departure time, but is the £5.40 because the booking office is run by Virgin who don't want to sell Northern-only tickets?

If he just asked for a single to the airport, he would've been sold just that - chances are people travelling to and from the airport don't want to be tied down to a single train, thus the £5.40 ticket being sold. When he books online, he's selecting a specific train, or a specific TOC, hence why he would have been offered that cheaper ticket.

 

[gray1404]

I have been offered an on the day advance when I rocked up and asked for a single from the airport to Liverpool. So I see no reason why the same can't happen here. Especially if someone is at Piccadilly ready to go to the airport already

 

[Starmill]

If the customer asks for an Advance ticket, and an Advance is available, the ticket office must sell it. How certain is your friend that the ticket was still available at the time they asked?

I suppose the real question is, if they knew they wanted the Advance and they were going to commit to that train, why didn't they just buy it on their phone? This can be done at the station and then collected from the ticket machine. Leaving it 10 minutes while they queue up at the ticket office could be the difference between making it in time and missing it.

What time we're they travelling? A Transport for Wales Only or TransPennine Express Only ticket is also available immediately before departure from the ticket office at a lower price than £5.40, assuming they were happy to wait.

 

[gray1404]

When I was offered an on the day advance I did not ask for it. I just said single to Liverpool. He then offered me the fare and explained that it was only valid on booked train. The cut of point for TPE and Northern on the day advances is 15 minutes before departure and they are available from ticket offices for these TOCs.

Virgin should be offering the cheapest available ticket at their booking offices.

 

[yorkie]

This should be pretty basic, right? ..

Maybe, but we don't have enough information to draw a conclusion.

 

[neilmc]

In the end I explained that (based on the replies above, thanks) there are three train companies working that route and the ticket office will just sell you the standard Anytime ticket valid on any of them unless you tell them otherwise, whereas if you buy a ticket by phone you specify a train so the app can sell you the range of tickets valid for that specific train, including cheap Advances which can ONLY be used on that one train. I'm still not sure if he understands. I'm still not sure if ANYONE understands who doesn't work in the rail industry or frequent these forums! And you can't even count on anyone working in the rail industry ...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

In the end I explained that (based on the replies above, thanks) there are three train companies working that route and the ticket office will just sell you the standard Anytime ticket valid on any of them unless you tell them otherwise, whereas if you buy a ticket by phone you specify a train so the app can sell you the range of tickets valid for that specific train, including cheap Advances which can ONLY be used on that one train. I'm still not sure if he understands. I'm still not sure if ANYONE understands who doesn't work in the rail industry or frequent these forums! And you can't even count on anyone working in the rail industry ...

To be honest, this is probably one of the simpler "issues" out there, and I would like to hope that, with a reasonable level of explanation it's not too complex.

 

[Wallsendmag]

In the end I explained that (based on the replies above, thanks) there are three train companies working that route and the ticket office will just sell you the standard Anytime ticket valid on any of them unless you tell them otherwise, whereas if you buy a ticket by phone you specify a train so the app can sell you the range of tickets valid for that specific train, including cheap Advances which can ONLY be used on that one train. I'm still not sure if he understands. I'm still not sure if ANYONE understands who doesn't work in the rail industry or frequent these forums! And you can't even count on anyone working in the rail industry ...

That's a very simplistic view and does not take into account any restrictions TOCs may have placed on Travel Centres being able to retail their products.

 

[gray1404]

The booking office should offer the advance fare too if available and its cheaper then the walk up. Not just on request.

 

[Samuel88]

Why are advance tickets sold for such short journeys? I personally think that advances should not be sold for journeys within city limits. What next, advances sold between West Drayton and Paddington, or even London Bridge to St Pancras?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Why are advance tickets sold for such short journeys? I personally think that advances should not be sold for journeys within city limits. What next, advances sold between West Drayton and Paddington, or even London Bridge to St Pancras?

That's rather by the by, isn't it? They are sold, and nothing in fares regulation stops them from doing so!

There are Advances available from Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street!

 

[Ianno87]

Why are advance tickets sold for such short journeys? I personally think that advances should not be sold for journeys within city limits. What next, advances sold between West Drayton and Paddington, or even London Bridge to St Pancras?

...if people buy them, and make journeys they would otherwise wouldn't have done/or keep people off busier trains...why on earth wouldn't you sell them?

 

[neilmc]

Why are advance tickets sold for such short journeys? I personally think that advances should not be sold for journeys within city limits. What next, advances sold between West Drayton and Paddington, or even London Bridge to St Pancras?

I don't think it's quite the market Advances were designed for, and could be considered an abuse of advance booking, but TOCs can legally offer such fares to lure passengers to buy their TOC-only product and thus deprive rivals of revenue share on journeys such as this one where there are more than one TOC covering the service.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the Any Permitted fares between Manchester Stations and the Airport, does Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive keep most if not all of the money as it is set by them?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Regarding the Any Permitted fares between Manchester Stations and the Airport, does Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive keep most if not all of the money as it is set by them?

They may nominally be the fare setter according to the industry data, but I don't think they actually physically do the fare setting - that, if I understand it correctly, is done by the local "stopper" TOC (in this case Northern).

But in any case, being the fare setter doesn't in any way mean that you will necessarily see all, most or even any of the revenue. ORCATS allocates revenue primarily on the basis of which TOCs provide non-overtaken journey itineraries, though there are of course other weighting factors.

Take the example of Crewe to Ormskirk, for example. The fare is set by CrossCountry. With the current timetable, that would appear to be totally illogical, as I am struggling to find any non-overtaken itineraries where CrossCountry feature, let alone ones where the inclusion of CrossCountry would be along a permitted route. I would be surprised if they received any revenue at all from that. And yet they set the fare, for what I can only presume is historical reasons.

The system of fare setting can be assigned a great many epithets, but logical isn't one of them!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Why are advance tickets sold for such short journeys? I personally think that advances should not be sold for journeys within city limits. What next, advances sold between West Drayton and Paddington, or even London Bridge to St Pancras?

A few of us started discussing this a while ago:
Heald Green, Gatley & East Didsbury to Manchester but the discussion never really developed...

 

[philthetube]

If ticket offices were to offer every alternative to every passenger, the ques would grow, revenue per staff member would fall and offices would close, there have to be limits.

 

[js1000]

This should be pretty basic, right? A friend has ranted on Facebook that he was quoted £2.90 on his phone app but was charged £5.40 at the ticket office. I suspect that this is because Northern would allow him to buy an Advance via phone app right up to the train departure time, but is the £5.40 because the booking office is run by Virgin who don't want to sell Northern-only tickets?

I sympathise greatly with the OP and is further evidence (if we need anymore) why the ticket system needs a complete overhaul.

The situation regarding advance fares from Manchester to Manchester Airport (and indeed onto Wilmslow) is indeed a joke. The old Northern franchise brought in advance fares on this route in late 2015. As Indigo2 points out above, this is still a flaw in the fare system that is ongoing.

I travelled from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Airport only last week. I know a single ticket cost £4.40, yet I booked exactly the same train with an advance ticket which covered my journey from Piccadilly to the Airport for £2.90.

I don't have a huge problem with this - the problem I do have is even if I booked an advance ticket from Mauldeth Road to the Airport on the app, it would have still quoted £4.40 - not the £2.90 despite it being a shorter distance from Piccadilly. Those defending the TOC profiteering from passengers' ignorance on here are in the wrong.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I sympathise greatly with the OP and is further evidence (if we need anymore) why the ticket system needs a complete overhaul.

The situation regarding advance fares from Manchester to Manchester Airport (and indeed onto Wilmslow) is indeed a joke. The old Northern franchise brought in advance fares on this route in late 2015. As Indigo2 points out above, this is still a flaw in the fare system that is ongoing.

I travelled from Mauldeth Road to Manchester Airport only last week. I know a single ticket cost £4.40, yet I booked exactly the same train with an advance ticket which covered my journey from Piccadilly to the Airport for £2.90.

I don't have a huge problem with this - the problem I do have is even if I booked an advance ticket from Mauldeth Road to the Airport on the app, it would have still quoted £4.40 - not the £2.90 despite it being a shorter distance from Piccadilly. Those defending the TOC profiteering from passengers' ignorance on here are in the wrong.

The issue is, you are not permitted to start "late" on an Advance. Pricing Advances in this way is a common practice amongst TOCs, as it's a very direct form of market-based pricing. No doubt @yorkie will be able to attest to this

 

[yorkie]

The issue is, you are not permitted to start "late" on an Advance. Pricing Advances in this way is a common practice amongst TOCs, as it's a very direct form of market-based pricing. No doubt @yorkie will be able to attest to this

Yes, several train companies deliberately price some shorter distance journeys as more expensive than a ticket valid for a longer journey along the same line of route, for market based pricing reasons.

I very much doubt RDG will prevent this happening; several their member TOCs are likely to be against any such moves. The DfT won't want to upset them, because the TOCs who are best at market based pricing are the TOCs that are best at improving value for money for the DfT (ie. keeping subsidies low and premiums high). If they are prevented from doing this, they would have to claw back the money through other means.

 

[js1000]

Yes, several train companies deliberately price some shorter distance journeys as more expensive than a ticket valid for a longer journey along the same line of route, for market based pricing reasons.

I very much doubt RDG will prevent this happening; several their member TOCs are likely to be against any such moves. The DfT won't want to upset them, because the TOCs who are best at market based pricing are the TOCs that are best at improving value for money for the DfT (ie. keeping subsidies low and premiums high). If they are prevented from doing this, they would have to claw back the money through other means.

In the interests of fairness I'd rather TOCs "claw back the money through other more fair means" rather than profiteering by deceit. It's the principle that counts.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In the interests of fairness I'd rather TOCs "claw back the money through other more fair means" rather than profiteering by deceit.

It isn't profiteeering by deceit. The ticket you bought was not valid- you can't start short on advance ticket. You were offered the cheapest ticket from Mauldeth Road. The cheapest equivalent ticket from Picadilly is £1.50 more.

The fact a different type of ticket from somewhere else to the airport is cheaper is neither here nor there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only thing that's ridiculous about it is selling Advance tickets at all for a journey of at most 17 minutes with many trains per hour. It's as ridiculous as if Merseyrail started selling them.

 

[sheff1]

I don't know why being able to travel for £2.90 rather than £5.40 is ridiculous. It is not as if you have to book weeks or days in advance to get the cheaper fare - when you arrive at the station and check the prices for the next couple of trains is fine.

 

[Starmill]

The only thing that's ridiculous about it is selling Advance tickets at all for a journey of at most 17 minutes with many trains per hour. It's as ridiculous as if Merseyrail started selling them.

Until a few years ago it would have been unthinkable that a journey within South Yorkshire, Greater Manchester or the West Midlands would be made on Advance tickets. Now, however, it's common user. This is while people complain to GWR about the high prices of Didcot Parkway to London (relative to Oxford to London) only to be told that Didcot to London is 'too short' a journey for them to sell enough advance tickets (obviously the sanitised media-friendly answer). CrossCountry withdrew their Stoke-on-Trent to Stafford Advance tickets years ago, and haven't put them back, despite their decision to start selling Birmingham to Wolverhampton and Sheffield to Doncaster. It's clear that it's considered on a case by case basis.

I hope nobody fancies a trip from Middlesbrough to Runcorn, Bournemouth to Plymouth or Berwick-upon-Tweed to Stoke-on-Trent, though, as if they do they'll find no Advance tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know why being able to travel for £2.90 rather than £5.40 is ridiculous. It is not as if you have to book weeks or days in advance to get the cheaper fare - when you arrive at the station and check the prices for the next couple of trains is fine.

You will probably have predicted this, but for local city journeys to me it is ridiculous to have anything other than a single set of fares (perhaps a peak-off peak differential) for all operators and all modes.

 

[Starmill]

You will probably have predicted this, but for local city journeys to me it is ridiculous to have anything other than a single set of fares (perhaps a peak-off peak differential) for all operators and all modes.

I agree strongly, but they need to be set appropriately. The £5.40 fare is too high. This is the reason why the Advance and TOC Only tickets are being sold.

 

[LowLevel]

They're a pain in the backside. On Saturday alone on one round trip I took over 200 pounds off people travelling on Northern only tickets on my train, mostly bought on the Trainline app that just shows letters saying CHEAPEST. It takes quite a lot of going into to get it to explain what an advance is and on some phones getting it to show other options is difficult. These are the same idiots who have started using the phrase 'open return' to advertise 'day return' tickets when anyone who works with passengers will tell you many of them use 'open return' to refer to tickets that were once known as 'period', IE off peak or anytime returns.

The worst thing is Northern will also get a share of the revenue I took off them and some passengers will have paid nearly double the odds for their journey as the discounts aren't great. But given my company doesn't get a penny from these tickets and these people are otherwise going to just keep clicking on the cheapest option and thus will never be our customers anyway should I be bothered? Morally actually, I am, but I'm sick of letting hundreds of pounds in revenue walk per train.

I absolutely loathe them and I can't remember the last time I worked a Manchester to Liverpool train without hitting someone in the pocket for a Northern only ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They're a pain in the backside. On Saturday alone on one round trip I took over 200 pounds off people travelling on Northern only tickets on my train, mostly bought on the Trainline app that just shows letters saying CHEAPEST. It takes quite a lot of going into to get it to explain what an advance is and on some phones getting it to show other options is difficult. These are the same idiots who have started using the phrase 'open return' to advertise 'day return' tickets when anyone who works with passengers will tell you many of them use 'open return' to refer to tickets that were once known as 'period', IE off peak or anytime returns.

The worst thing is Northern will also get a share of the revenue I took off them and some passengers will have paid nearly double the odds for their journey as the discounts aren't great. But given my company doesn't get a penny from these tickets and these people are otherwise going to just keep clicking on the cheapest option and thus will never be our customers anyway should I be bothered? Morally actually, I am, but I'm sick of letting hundreds of pounds in revenue walk per train.

I absolutely loathe them and I can't remember the last time I worked a Manchester to Liverpool train without hitting someone in the pocket for a Northern only ticket.

Does that include where there were strikes and no Northern replacement service? I'm sure that, as a conscientious and contract-abiding guard, you wouldn't have charged any Northern only ticket holders anything (due to NRCoT 28.2)!