Manchester Trains from Euston

[MarkWi72]

Thinking about the truncated HS2, which will see HS2 Manchester trains joining the Trent Valley WCML at Handsacre Junction, I have been interested to work out how these services, plus the present and historic Euston-Manchester services have been timetabled and planned. With capacity at a premium, plus one operative claiming the HS2 Manchester trains will go via Stafford and Stoke, I wondered how this could work.

Nowadays most/all Euston -Manchester trains go off at Colwich Jn via Stone and Stoke. In the past, some went via Crewe and the Styal line, I believe. Not sure if any do now with Euston-Crewe services

As far as I am aware, no Euston -Manchester trains went via Norton Bridge-Stone-Stoke. This was reserved for trains coming from Birmingham or freight. A big change like this (HS2 from Trent Valley-Stafford-Norton Bridge- Stone-Stoke) is largely hypothetical, given the budget limits to this northbound section of HS2. But this would prove a big change in routing and planning.Not to mention signalling pathways and knock on impact on other services.

Presumably MP and people of Stafford want it to serve them too, rather than miss them out via Colwich-Stone. Is this likely?

 

[jfollows]

Nowadays most/all Euston -Manchester trains go off at Colwich Jn via Stone and Stoke. In the past, some went via Crewe and the Styal line, I believe. Not sure if any do now with Euston-Crewe services

3 trains an hour, 1 of which goes via Crewe today (xx.33 from Euston, xx.55 from Manchester). Roughly the same ratio - with far fewer trains - in the 1970s as it happens.
The Styal line is used by one train a day (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C32330/2024-07-29/detailed 9R20 06:03 Manchester-London via Birmingham) for route knowledge retention since it’s an obvious diversionary route. In the past it was used by some Manchester Pullman services, there is discussion elsewhere on this forum since it’s clearly off topic for this thread!

 

[py_megapixel]

3 trains an hour, 1 of which goes via Crewe today (xx.33 from Euston, xx.55 from Manchester). Roughly the same ratio - with far fewer trains - in the 1970s as it happens.

and as far as I'm aware none go via Styal apart from a single early-morning departure from Manchester on weekdays only - the "usual" routes are Trent Valley - Stoke - Cheadle Hulme (2tph) and Trent Valley- Stafford - Crewe - Cheadle Hulme (1tph).

Should also be noted that current Birmingham services all go via Stafford, again apart from a single early-morning southbound service and in this case also a corresponding northbound one in the evening.

 

[MarkWi72]

Am I conflating the Styal line with the Crewe -Manchester line. I think I am.

 

[jfollows]

Am I conflating the Styal line with the Crewe -Manchester line. I think I am.

Styal line leaves at Wilmslow northbound and rejoins the main line at Slade Lane Junction, bypassing Stockport (and going through Styal of course). More recently with a branch to Manchester Airport also.

 

[miami]

As there is no extra capacity through Stockport, presumably HS2 will mean the current Man/Stockport/Crewe service and one of the Man/Stockport/Stokes will move onto HS2 with the northern stops as now, with one of the services staying on Man/Stockport/Stoke/Thames Valley

Then likely have one or two new services starting at Stoke or Macclesfield and heading south to London with more stops to increase service along TV (although not enough to be all stops like the WMT one, say Stafford/Nuneaton/Rugby on one service and Stafford/Rugely/Tamworth on the other)

Part of the problem of HS2 for the last decade has been the lack of actual indicative timetables showing what services will look like on the original lines.

 

[The Planner]

As there is no extra capacity through Stockport, presumably HS2 will mean the current Man/Stockport/Crewe service and one of the Man/Stockport/Stokes will move onto HS2 with the northern stops as now, with one of the services staying on Man/Stockport/Stoke/Thames Valley

Then likely have one or two new services starting at Stoke or Macclesfield and heading south to London with more stops to increase service along TV (although not enough to be all stops like the WMT one, say Stafford/Nuneaton/Rugby on one service and Stafford/Rugely/Tamworth on the other)

Part of the problem of HS2 for the last decade has been the lack of actual indicative timetables showing what services will look like on the original lines.

Doubt it, they will get all 3 paths to Manchester. Stoke isn't set up for terminating trains from the south. Macclesfield had an HS2 terminating train under the full plan. As for the timetables on the classic lines, if people stopped changing their minds over what is getting built, that work could actually get somewhere.

 

[cle]

Is there a future where the Macclesfield could be extracted from the 3 Manchester paths?

As an extra tph from OOC up to Stoke and Macc? Or even from Curzon St?

There is always talk of the Stoke stopper being extended to Curzon St too. But maybe the other Macc stopper (that balances the Stoke) could also extend to Curzon, giving 2tph.


Other tack - is there anything which could be redirected from Stockport/Manchester to free up more paths? Could more run via Romiley (add Sheffield-Stockport terminators?) - or is something else moveable? Like the Cardiff - could that run out of Victoria? It's short and diesel.

 

[JonathanH]

There is always talk of the Stoke stopper being extended to Curzon St too. But maybe the other Macc stopper (that balances the Stoke) could also extend to Curzon, giving 2tph.

What genre of rolling stock would be used that did a stopping service to Stoke and then ran to a purpose built high speed station with only 3 platforms?

 

[43096]

As far as I am aware, no Euston -Manchester trains went via Norton Bridge-Stone-Stoke.

Whilst Euston to Manchester via Stoke services are booked via Hixon, they can go via Norton Bridge if required - I have been on plenty over the year that have done so.

 

[Manutd1999]

As an extra tph from OOC up to Stoke and Macc? Or even from Curzon St?

This was in the original HS2 spec but seems unlikely if paths are limited.

I think they will just transfer the existing 3ph over to HS2 tbh, with everything running non-stop after Stafford. The answer to Trent Valley connectivity might come from LNR's recent open-access proposal to extend the stopper from Crewe to Manchester.

That said, I actually think a 2ph HS2 service would work better. The 20-min pattern contrains up the timetable for the Crewe and Stoke lines, reducing capacity for local services. Half-hourly HS2 via Stoke and half-hourly semi-fast via Crewe and the Trent Valley would work better IMO.

 

[The Planner]

That said, I actually think a 2ph HS2 service would work better. The 20-min pattern contrains up the timetable for the Crewe and Stoke lines, reducing capacity for local services. Half-hourly HS2 via Stoke and half-hourly semi-fast via Crewe and the Trent Valley would work better IMO.

You cannot have an evenly distributed fast service at Stoke as the stopper takes 41 minutes to get to Adswood Road. It will always be lop sided with 4tph fast (2 HS2 2 XC). Other option is to detrimentally slow down the stopper by hiding it at Macc.

 

[Howardh]

Is Handsacre going to be a passenger station, if so could trains stop there and pax alight onto HS2?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is Handsacre going to be a passenger station

No.

if so could trains stop there and pax alight onto HS2?

n/a

 

[The Planner]

Is Handsacre going to be a passenger station, if so could trains stop there and pax alight onto HS2?

Its a junction in a field.

 

[Howardh]

Its a junction in a field.

Bit like Laxford Bridge in Scotland, a major signposted destination from 20-30 miles away, and when you get there, nothing, just a bridge and T-junction! Thought Handsacre might be a useful place to change to trains heading for North Wales, but hey.

 

[The Planner]

Bit like Laxford Bridge in Scotland, a major signposted destination from 20-30 miles away, and when you get there, nothing, just a bridge and T-junction! Thought Handsacre might be a useful place to change to trains heading for North Wales, but hey.

You would do that at Crewe.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Its a junction in a field.

Like Shaftholme Junction has been, famously, since 1848.

Actually, for connectivity, the business case for Interchange station seems pretty weak now.

 

[Senex]

Like Shaftholme Junction has been, famously, since 1848.

Actually, for connectivity, the business case for Interchange station seems pretty weak now.

Strictly speaking, the junction in a ploughed field north of Doncaster was Askern Jn, where the GN and the L&Y met end-on—so most people wouldn't even have noticed it as a junction. Shaftholme is the junction made a generation later for the NE line to York to turn out of the GN line without having to trespass onto L&Y metals.

 

[The Planner]

Like Shaftholme Junction has been, famously, since 1848.

Actually, for connectivity, the business case for Interchange station seems pretty weak now.

Even if its just OOC, I can still see a large Park and Ride element.