Manchester Victoria

[superkev]

Members of friends of the earth can have a personal solution monitor so someone could do there own Man vic test. Results for various places around the country where mentioned somewhere else on this forum but I don't think Man vic was included.
One thing about fans is at places like new street bringing in air from outside may not improve things much as air quality around may be not that great.
K

 

[CdBrux]

The simplest way to deal with fumes in Victoria would surely be to maximise the electric traction using it. I would have thought with judicious use of bimodes and an extension of the electrification a few miles east much diesel traction could be eliminated from the station. Could the class 68's & MK5a sets stopping places be set so the engine is always not stopping under the arena?

 

[Llama]

The fumes are worse at Manchester Victoria now that the red doors are kept closed and locked at the far end of the footbridge - when they were in normal use at least one of them never quite closed properly which sometimes provided a little vital airflow to ventilate the overbridge. Trying to get the TOC management to take the problem seriously is much harder work than it should be. In my opinion reducing the height of, or providing openings within, the floor to ceiling glass at at the side of the footbridge where the lifts are would be a cheap and effective solution to what is undoubtedly a serious health hazard. I for one am disgusted at the lack of action over this longstanding issue. When it was downsized in 1993 Manchester Victoria was never envisaged to have the level of service it now has - each through platform was unidirectional and only saw a few trains per hour. In 1998 the Victoria area was extensively resignalled adding the flexibility of full bidirectional working, a turnback siding, closure of several signalboxes, abolition of the Cheetham Hill loop and line speed & junction improvements. Slight improvements to flexibility at the west end by addition of two crossovers was carried out in 2015 in preparation of the electric Liverpool service and TPE services but a that extra capacity has been used up now and the station teeters on the edge of gridlock.

There is talk of a west facing bay and/or additional siding capacity at the east end of Victoria soon to ease capacity constraints, to be honest even the old Victoria with six through platforms would have been kept busy by today's level of service.

 

[yorksrob]

The fumes are worse at Manchester Victoria now that the red doors are kept closed and locked at the far end of the footbridge - when they were in normal use at least one of them never quite closed properly which sometimes provided a little vital airflow to ventilate the overbridge. Trying to get the TOC management to take the problem seriously is much harder work than it should be. In my opinion reducing the height of, or providing openings within, the floor to ceiling glass at at the side of the footbridge where the lifts are would be a cheap and effective solution to what is undoubtedly a serious health hazard. I for one am disgusted at the lack of action over this longstanding issue. When it was downsized in 1993 Manchester Victoria was never envisaged to have the level of service it now has - each through platform was unidirectional and only saw a few trains per hour. In 1998 the Victoria area was extensively resignalled adding the flexibility of full bidirectional working, a turnback siding, closure of several signalboxes, abolition of the Cheetham Hill loop and line speed & junction improvements. Slight improvements to flexibility at the west end by addition of two crossovers was carried out in 2015 in preparation of the electric Liverpool service and TPE services but a that extra capacity has been used up now and the station teeters on the edge of gridlock.

There is talk of a west facing bay and/or additional siding capacity at the east end of Victoria soon to ease capacity constraints, to be honest even the old Victoria with six through platforms would have been kept busy by today's level of service.

It would have had a lot more 'airspace' for fumes to dissipate in as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fumes are worse at Manchester Victoria now that the red doors are kept closed and locked at the far end of the footbridge - when they were in normal use at least one of them never quite closed properly which sometimes provided a little vital airflow to ventilate the overbridge. Trying to get the TOC management to take the problem seriously is much harder work than it should be. In my opinion reducing the height of, or providing openings within, the floor to ceiling glass at at the side of the footbridge where the lifts are would be a cheap and effective solution to what is undoubtedly a serious health hazard. I for one am disgusted at the lack of action over this longstanding issue. When it was downsized in 1993 Manchester Victoria was never envisaged to have the level of service it now has - each through platform was unidirectional and only saw a few trains per hour.

Vic is starting to suffer the problems Picc 13/14 is suffering and for the same reasons - namely that there are too many short trains bimbling round the North getting in each others' way, and we need either major station infrastructure investment to handle them properly (i.e. Picc 15/16 and possibly more platforms at Vic in some form) or we need to cut frequencies back and run maximum length trains instead. I'm not suggesting the old order of TPE being a LHCS train every two hours, but rather a cut from 6tph to 4tph which is still very frequent.

 

[jonesy3001]

Victoria should of been left how it was and the arena built in another part of the city centre, used to love going under the subway for the blackpool train, but that's my opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Victoria should of been left how it was and the arena built in another part of the city centre, used to love going under the subway for the blackpool train, but that's my opinion.

At the time the Windsor Link was the thing, and Vic was a backwater, with no sign of that changing (and Picc 13/14 mainly carrying local trains, so a bit more Merseyrail like than it is now). I also recall on going there as a kid it looked really clean, modern and "big city" even if quite a small station.

One could argue that the Windsor Link should never have been built, and had it not Vic would have needed to remain as a large main station and the present form wouldn't have happened.

It's just suffering, like much of the North's rail network, from massively increased use compared with back then, and from the pig-ugly cluttering additions since, such as the Arena bridge and the large signage.

 

[cle]

Vic is starting to suffer the problems Picc 13/14 is suffering and for the same reasons - namely that there are too many short trains bimbling round the North getting in each others' way, and we need either major station infrastructure investment to handle them properly (i.e. Picc 15/16 and possibly more platforms at Vic in some form) or we need to cut frequencies back and run maximum length trains instead. I'm not suggesting the old order of TPE being a LHCS train every two hours, but rather a cut from 6tph to 4tph which is still very frequent.

Trains between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds/York via Hudds should be 6-8 cars as standard, at 4tph minimum.

Or there could be two PIXC type Victoria - Hudds - Leeds only trains per hour, at length - as is mentioned a lot for Reading.

 

[Eric]

Platforms 4 and 5 are bad for serve overcrowding also. Isn't there anything they can do behind 6?

 

[RWill35396]

Building the arena where it currently is was a bad move, clearly no forward thinking there. Now, Manchester has two sporting centres, namely Old Trafford and the Etihad Campus, anyone with a brain cell or two would have pushed for the arena to be situated in one of those areas, and perhaps renamed said area as the Sporting Quarter for example. Old Trafford has good transport links, as does the Etihad campus. In one swoop the city centre madness on match days would be alleviated, for sure. Victoria station could then be redeveloped into a world class heavy rail station. Oops! Piccadilly is first in line with HS2, plus being a terminal for London bound trains. Victoria is low priority, seeing as it merely serves the Liverpool / Hull corridor and the North. If it ain't got London in it, it ain't getting done. Frustrating, especially as Manchester is becoming a world class city in its own right.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Building the arena where it currently is was a bad move, clearly no forward thinking there. Now, Manchester has two sporting centres, namely Old Trafford and the Etihad Campus, anyone with a brain cell or two would have pushed for the arena to be situated in one of those areas, and perhaps renamed said area as the Sporting Quarter for example. Old Trafford has good transport links, as does the Etihad campus. In one swoop the city centre madness on match days would be alleviated, for sure. Victoria station could then be redeveloped into a world class heavy rail station. Oops! Piccadilly is first in line with HS2, plus being a terminal for London bound trains. Victoria is low priority, seeing as it merely serves the Liverpool / Hull corridor and the North. If it ain't got London in it, it ain't getting done. Frustrating, especially as Manchester is becoming a world class city in its own right.

The arena is in a city centre location, unlike Old Trafford and the Etihad Campus.

 

[CdBrux]

The arena is in a city centre location, unlike Old Trafford and the Etihad Campus.

Quite. It also has far better public transport links as it is right on top of a major transport interchange which seems like a very good idea to me! It was also built well before the Etihad was probably even thought about, I don't get the matchday madness comment at all. Victoria has many terminating services which could be made into through services or some way found to get them out to the east. Is really knocking down the arena the only option, can no-one come up with a more imaginative option for even the same money?

 

[Geeves]

Small mercies I know and I've said it before, but BR's plans at the time were to reduce Vic to one single island platform. Least we can be grateful one person somewhere said no.

Unfortunately it looks as though fumes will be getting even worse with 800s and 68s on the horizon!

 

[Chester1]

Quite. It also has far better public transport links as it is right on top of a major transport interchange which seems like a very good idea to me! It was also built well before the Etihad was probably even thought about, I don't get the matchday madness comment at all. Victoria has many terminating services which could be made into through services or some way found to get them out to the east. Is really knocking down the arena the only option, can no-one come up with a more imaginative option for even the same money?

Members of this site have a tendency to want things to be reverted back to how things where in the past. I do agree that the 90s cutback went too far, retaining 6 through platforms would have been better.

The imaginative option (and the best value for money) was the decision to run trains through to Rochdale and Stalybridge to increase capacity at Victoria for Northern Hub, this could be taken further by rebuilding Rochdale again. I would move the westbound through track further over (widening the platform) which would allow another west facing bay platform to be built alongside the new bay platform. There is sufficient space to build a single track line to Heywood alongside the East Lancashire Railway. In addition to linking the town to the rail network, a single platform station (opposite the ELR single platform station) would allow 1-2tph to run through Victoria. Once Victoria to Stalybridge is eventually electrified EMUs can run through and terminate there. A west facing terminating platform on the western approach to Victoria was ruled too expensive compared with extending to Rochdale and Stalybridge. It was the correct decision.

Small mercies I know and I've said it before, but BR's plans at the time were to reduce Vic to one single island platform. Least we can be grateful one person somewhere said no.

Unfortunately it looks as though fumes will be getting even worse with 800s and 68s on the horizon!

68s should not be worse than 185s. The 802s will run electric between Liverpool or Manchester Airport and to 800m east of Victoria. This 800m section is currently being wired to allow EMUs to use a siding and then re-enter. 802s can change power on the move so they can spend the whole time a in and near Victoria using overhead power.

 

[Eric]

Small mercies I know and I've said it before, but BR's plans at the time were to reduce Vic to one single island platform. Least we can be grateful one person somewhere said no.

Unfortunately it looks as though fumes will be getting even worse with 800s and 68s on the horizon!

How did they expect that work? A single island platform?

 

[Greybeard33]

68s should not be worse than 185s. The 802s will run electric between Liverpool or Manchester Airport and to 800m east of Victoria. This 800m section is currently being wired to allow EMUs to use a siding and then re-enter. 802s can change power on the move so they can spend the whole time a in and near Victoria using overhead power.

68s, 802s, 195s and 769s are all Stage IIIB compliant, so their emissions of particulates and nitrogen oxides are a tiny fraction of those from a 185 or 15x.

I don't think 769s can change power on the move, but on Stalybridge to Wigan workings they should be able to shut down their engines after entering the station westbound. Eastbound they will hopefully not start their engines until immediately before departure.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How did they expect that work? A single island platform?

When Manchester Victoria was first opened, what was the original platform layout at that time?

 

[Chester1]

68s, 802s, 195s and 769s are all Stage IIIB compliant, so their emissions of particulates and nitrogen oxides are a tiny fraction of those from a 185 or 15x.

I don't think 769s can change power on the move, but on Stalybridge to Wigan workings they should be able to shut down their engines after entering the station westbound. Eastbound they will hopefully not start their engines until immediately before departure.

The GWR 769s will be able to change power on the move because GWR pushed for it (along with aircooling). I don't know if its a cheap thing to do for Northern and TfW units too or whether it was an option that both rejected when ordering them. As you say, as long as they only use their diesel engines for the minimum time then combined with 802 electric power and cleaner diesels there will be a significant improvement in air quality at Victoria soon.

It does annoy me that the through platforms where neglected during the last redevelopment. After spending £40m on one half of the station, cheap improvements to the other half where ignored. A replacement of the lighting system, transparent canopies for platforms 3 and 4 and pod waiting rooms would be a huge improvement. I agree with the long term policy/trend that Piccadilly is the Manchester terminal station (and the Airport) with the other city centre stations being served by services that run through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How did they expect that work? A single island platform?

No terminating services and as much as possible to Picc via the Windsor Link?

 

[Ken H]

...

I don't think 769s can change power on the move, but on Stalybridge to Wigan workings they should be able to shut down their engines after entering the station westbound. Eastbound they will hopefully not start their engines until immediately before departure.

how long after starting a train engine can you take power? I have had to endure rants from my garage man about letting my diesel car engine tick over for 30 secs before diving away to allow oil to get to some parts, notably the turbo. And I know taking full power from a diesel while its cold can damage the engine. This was an issue with Steventon - getting the IEP diesels to operating temp before taking power with pre-heaters - when to turn on the heaters.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

how long after starting a train engine can you take power? I have had to endure rants from my garage man about letting my diesel car engine tick over for 30 secs before diving away to allow oil to get to some parts, notably the turbo. And I know taking full power from a diesel while its cold can damage the engine. This was an issue with Steventon - getting the IEP diesels to operating temp before taking power with pre-heaters - when to turn on the heaters.

I think the engine itself is the least of your worries. Far more important is whether or not you have brake pressure. That can, depending on the existing brake pressure and the unit in question, take several minutes to build up. On a short turnaround of say 5 or 10 minutes that means it might even delay the turnaround to turn off the engine. In any case, the issues regarding letting the engine tick over for a bit before putting any load on it are more about cold starts. For warm starts (as would be the case if you'd switched the engines off 20 minutes ago when arriving into the station) the oil is still, to a greater or lesser extent, protecting most of the important parts.

 

[Senex]

When Manchester Victoria was first opened, what was the original platform layout at that time?

Typical for the time — a single through platform (on a loop line) and a bay at either end, one for each of the two companies (the Manchester & Leeds and the Liverpool & Manchester).

 

[sprunt]

Now, Manchester has two sporting centres, namely Old Trafford and the Etihad Campus, anyone with a brain cell or two would have pushed for the arena to be situated in one of those areas, and perhaps renamed said area as the Sporting Quarter for example. Old Trafford has good transport links, as does the Etihad campus. In one swoop the city centre madness on match days would be alleviated, for sure.

I don't understand what you mean by this. How does the location of the arena affect what happens in the city centre on match days (assuming you mean United and City match days)? Also, it was unlikely the arena would have been built near the Etihad, as it's seven years older than the Etihad.

 

[greyman42]

Building the arena where it currently is was a bad move, clearly no forward thinking there. Now, Manchester has two sporting centres, namely Old Trafford and the Etihad Campus, anyone with a brain cell or two would have pushed for the arena to be situated in one of those areas, and perhaps renamed said area as the Sporting Quarter for example. Old Trafford has good transport links, as does the Etihad campus. In one swoop the city centre madness on match days would be alleviated, for sure.

Are you suggesting that if the arena had been built at Old Trafford or the Etihad, then on match days supporters would flock to the arena rather than congregating in the city centre?

 

[yorksrob]

The Arena is very handy for transport.

It would have been bettet if they'd put it a bit further north where the brewery used to ne, which would have retained the excellent transport links.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Arena is very handy for transport.

It would have been bettet if they'd put it a bit further north where the brewery used to ne, which would have retained the excellent transport links.

The brewery was still there when it was built.

 

[Wtloild]

The Arena is very handy for transport

...or it could be if any extra capacity was laid on to coincide with the conclusion of gigs.
I've ended up coming home on a rail replacement bus from Victoria a couple of times, amongst the throng of gig-goers not sharp-elbowed enough to claim a spot the inevitable crush-loaded 2-car Pacer.
(and also once from Piccadilly p14 after gig at the Etihad).

Re. possibility of running more trains through Vic to terminate at Rochdale, might electrification to Rochdale be relatively painless to achieve? (pardon my crayons)

 

[Chrisyd]

Re. possibility of running more trains through Vic to terminate at Rochdale, might electrification to Rochdale be relatively painless to achieve? (pardon my crayons)

The plan was to have the electric through services terminating at Stalybridge and the Diesel ones at Rochdale, for now however Stalybridge just has an extension lead!

 

[yorksrob]

...or it could be if any extra capacity was laid on to coincide with the conclusion of gigs.
I've ended up coming home on a rail replacement bus from Victoria a couple of times, amongst the throng of gig-goers not sharp-elbowed enough to claim a spot the inevitable crush-loaded 2-car Pacer.
(and also once from Piccadilly p14 after gig at the Etihad).

Re. possibility of running more trains through Vic to terminate at Rochdale, might electrification to Rochdale be relatively painless to achieve? (pardon my crayons)

The platforms are certainly long enough for that, whether they put the trains on to match or not.

 

[modernrail]

this again? The people who need monitoring are the platform staff. They are exposed to any exhaust for long periods of time. Passengers are not. They will be on the platforms for a short period before either boarding their train or leaving the station.

Personally I don't think there is much risk to a regular passenger. I also think the risk to staff is low.



it would let people get all twisty and complain. Practically all your can do is install some fans until every train is made electric.

In the basis of what evidence? It just needs somebody to take some readings. Not exactly a difficult job.