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Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by U-Bahnfreund, 26 Dec 2017.
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To be fair most cities in the UK do have such a ticket.
S-Bahn is a heavy rail Metro style train service usually operated by DB on DB metals, though there are exceptions. LO is definitely an S-Bahn; Merseyrail is also a textbook example, though most other UK suburban heavy rail operations would also pass for it like the Manchester suburban DMUs and the Brum Cross City. It doesn’t have to go to the city centre.
I like it, the service numbering system is a goodun.
Chill out, take a deep breath, and then re-read the opening post. Where does it say that the S-Bahn name should be used in London?
Fair enough - I had understood it was an RER style service, which was my mistake. Apologies to the OP, I will withdraw the previous comment.
Although - looking at this - are you sure S-Bahn doesn’t = RER?!
S-Bahn and RER are both brandings of city train services so they could be considered synonyms. Brussels is in the process of upgrading its suburban rail, and has labelled the lines with an S prefix like Germany and Switzerland. However, the network is referred to as "Réseau Express Régional Bruxellois" in French.
I really like this map, but I can’t help but feel that without other metro national rail services it’s lacking something. Great work though.
als erstes: Der Plan ist sehr schön, einige Sachen sind aber etwas störend (wenn auch designmäßig eventuell nötig):
1. Die "O2" und "O25" fahren eigentlich auf der gleichen Strekce wie die Ts, woraus folgt:
1.a Crystal Palace ist geografisch unschön angeordnet (der Platz ist aber auch sehr beschränkt)
2. Die Pfeile am Anfang der "Sutton Loop" müssten in beide Richtungen gehen, so ist das etwas verwirrend (es wirkt am Abzweig, als würden die Züge nur in eine Richtung fahren)
3. Die Double Arrows sind im Süden fast überall, was nicht wirklich schön ist (aber das Problem der unscharfen Trennung im britischen Netz ist)
I noticed some things which might be needed for design but are bit confusing at first:
1. O2 and O25 should run on the same line, Crystal Palace could then be alligend more correctly
2. The Sutton Loop arrows seem a bit confusing (it looks like you can only go in one direction on both sides)
3. The amount of Double Arrows in the south is a bit overwhelming, but this is a problem of the very complex nature of the network
Concerning other services: This map shows high-frequency rail services with all extremeties of their networks. You could define metro-style as having a train through a central section (e.g. Waterloo-Raynes Park) every x minutes and draw the map accordingly, which would work but would use a randomly defined border. This map shows routes through and around London, which is quite good for traffic going North-South or East-West, but not so much for inner city traffic. The German approach would be putting everything on one map, which will not work for London, as it is quite an extensive network.
The distinction is light vs heavy rail - though other patterns may also exist.
Edit: To expand on that - it is indeed quite common for S-Bahnen to operate in the pattern you describe, largely because they tend to come about on existing heavy rail formations which tend to form the patterns you describe - a load of lines converging on a city centre. U-Bahnen and Stadtbahnen (tram) tend to run in criss-cross type formations because they are normally new "for purpose" light rail builds which can be put where they are desired. Hamburg's S-Bahn with the "second city crossing" isn't quite like that - but then Metrolink (which is a bit half-S-Bahn half-tram) only had one originally...
But to me the distinction in the UK is pretty much - heavy-rail National Rail = S-Bahn, not National Rail = U-Bahn, though there are odd overlaps like the Tube mostly being heavy rail (particularly the Met which is classic S-Bahn in operational style).
Re the Paris RER I would agree that is an S-Bahn, but I wouldn't so much say the terms are synonymous.
Great Map - only thought is that the Thameslink routes already have "TL" numbers for the new May 2018 timetables, so why not stick with the same numbers on this map rather than creating a whole new set. Hope someone in charge of transport takes it on as it would be very useful for many travellers.
Brilliant map. I've always wondered what a map of London's mainline network would look like if it was given the S-Bahn treatment.
If you were willing to do it it would be nice to see similar maps for the other London rail networks
Whats this obsession with numbers on train lines when the current system seems to work perfectly well and generally has done since the railways were invented?
I can generally use the current tube map well, for the places I go. My main journeys are Euston to Waterloo, or Victoria. Little trick for you, it is always more fun to change at Bank for the W&C line for Waterloo
I really like that this doesn't include tube lines, just like how most S train maps don't include the U maps in Europe, see Copenhagen S, and M are seperate.
I have always found Continental maps more easy, and simple, perhaps thats because almost all of my trips abroad have consisted of public transport - even China. The current incumbent map has generally served its purpose, but with the Overground addition, it can be confusing. Thats why I like the switch to O1, O2 etc...
Crossrail should NOT be called "Elizabeth Line", hence why I really like the C1, C2 etc...
The only slight issue I see here, is that Thameslink is not a TFL concession, therefore it might be more difficult to enforce the numbering systems, but generally, I don't see why it could not happen.
On the logistical side, I suppose destination boards would have to be modified, but hey, thats easy!
I really like this concept!
Because the network is getting increasingly complex and it is a good way of making it more understandable like, er, every bus network ever (pretty much).
I get you are super obsessed with all things German because you certainly go on about it a lot but come on man - destination screens are simple and work - why change what already works? And comparing to buses is rather silly isnt it?
I'm not obsessed with German, just think European networks as a whole work much better than our own, and it is not because of NATIONALISATION before anyone goes off on that.
The current system clearly does NOT work for everyone. If a tourist came to London, they'd struggle with it, especially if they were trying to get from Heathrow to Clapham or somewhere which involves Overground.
Because it's easier to see from a map what's what. And a number can also convey stopping pattern and the likes.
How? Trains are public transport, buses are public transport. Every bus (near enough) has a number, and people understand them well. Why not also train routes?
 Muppets like Trent Barton who think they're too good for the system used by every other bus company in the country excepted.
Personally I think that numbering London suburban services would work really well and improve travelling for tourists.
It would be useful as a quick reference guide for regular customers too. For example, you are stood on the platform at St Albans waiting for a train to Harlington. At present the departure board says ‘Bedford’ on one line, and then on the second scrolls through all the stops, the formation, the location of first class, the apologies for the lack of Coach X, trolley information etc. It can take a while for the information you want to come through. With the numbered system the destination would be ‘Bedford T1’ or ‘Bedford T3’. And because you are a regular and know the system you know that you can jump straight on the ‘T1’ because that one stops at Harlington whereas the ‘T3’ doesn’t, without having to wait for the rest of the information to scroll through first (by which time you’ve missed your train).
Improved and more consistent information is never a bad thing.
I disagree; when I am in Paris I find the line number system much more convenient to use - it also makes the signage at the interchange stations much clearer.
Please do not take any head of the "not invented here" crowd and carry on to completion.
Currently the maps for the orange spaghetti that is the Overground are almost useless; your numbers make the network intelligible!
Please add the National Rail services out of Euston to (at least) Watford Junction and also the ex-Milton Keynes service via Watford Junction to East Croydon / Clapham Junction.
It is a nice map, I've been thinking recently London should have a map just showing suburban rail services. However, I would prefer if the Sydenham corridor wasn't shown as two separate routes and if lines crossed each other at the correct places.
I agree, a numbering system is easier to use, although the signage placement on the Metro in Paris is awful. In London, you often hear tourists refer to lines by the colour, they're never going to learn all the names, especially if they don't speak English. Numbers or Letters are easy for people to understand from any country. In Sydney, on the suburban lines, they recently added numbers but also kept the names of the lines (T3 Bankstown, T4 Eastern Suburbs, etc.), the same could be done on the London Underground.
As for the Suburban routes in London, we've gone backwards since NSE and the DfT and TfL both haven't done as much as they could to improve this. We don't need to be bombarded with irrelevant franchise names on the suburban routes, we need a joined up network like every other metropolitan city. We essentially have 4 categories of service: Cross London (Thameslink, Crossrail), Orbital (Goblin, North and East London Lines), Radial (South East/Central/West, West Anglia, GN, Watford Local) and Branch (Greenford, Emerson, Bromley N). Start from there, have a ScotRail style unified branding, a unified map and set of standards. This doesn't need a TfL take over, just co-operation enforced by the government. Call it the London Rail Union and have the logo be a double arrow surrounded by yellow stars (or roundels) .
It's gloriously British that suggesting a numbered system for specific routes is too European
Thameslink had a route numbering system no one took any notice of it. The Circle Line, The Piccadilly Line are known throughout the world - Line 6 ? Line 3 ... could be anywhere. You can keep your numbers - why not put it to a poll to really find out what people prefer.
I appreciate that this is maybe going off-topic but when did the old Southern Region services drop the two digit route numbers that they used to show on the front windows?
...because half of the threads on the Forum will eventually end up with someone suggesting that we copy the Germans (or Swiss or Dutch - only ever those three countries, mind) - it's inevitable on the Forum! I'm old enough to remember when the answer to everything was either "Shinkansen" or Penryn-style platforms" - but in 2017 it's been "copy the Germans".
Seriously though, I think it's a good map - it explains Thameslink well. Time well spent.
The problem is that - if it's intended to assist visitors to London - it'll be hard to understand why "suburban" services to Watford are on the map whilst "suburban" services to (say) Hayes aren't. You can make the case that London Overground/ Elizabeth Line/ Tramlink are all operated on behalf of TfL but Thameslink is part of the same TSGN franchise as lots of suburban services in south London.
I can see why the OP has tried to focus on one "horizontal" and one "vertical" route (plus all of the London Overground stuff) - and I'll repeat that it's a good/clean looking map (and far classier than anything I could come up with!) but I think that a priority ought to be showing "turn up and go" Heavy Rail services around London (without worrying about which colour the trains are) - and any map that doesn't show Victoria/ Waterloo etc isn't going to be as useful to the casual passenger.
I think what I'd like to see would be a return of the "frequent services" map that was issued shortly after the millennium - showing "turn up and go" routes from Waterloo/ Victoria/ London Bridge etc.
A great map.
I'd make three small suggestions:
1. Can O5 extend south so that Euston appears a bit more central?
2. Relatedly, perhaps the map might show a walking link between Euston and St Pancras?
3. Reading just this map, it's a little unclear where the city centre is: the network is offset to the east and your map accordingly makes Farringdon look like the centre of London. Perhaps a grey ring depicting Zone 1 (or even concentric rings for all the zones??) would help?
These are small quibbles - it's a very clear map.
The phrase or concept of "the circle line" may be known worldwide, but perhaps not its route. Tourists for the most part aren't looking for "the circle line", they're after the destination on the front end of a train, and if they're okay with looking for the word "Cockfosters" they're going to be okay with looking for the number "C5".
very good map, well done