Mark 1 suburban coaches

[Journeyman]

I'm a bit curious about the final years of BR's loco-hauled, non-gangwayed Mark 1 coaches. Obviously they weren't built or used for very long, as DMUs came along and were cheaper and easier to operate, but a few survived on peak-time Great Northern diagrams out of King's Cross and Moorgate until 1977.

A few questions...

• Were all the final survivors the shorter 57-foot vehicles?
• Before they ended up confined to just the GN route, where were they previously last used?
• What was a typical GN formation, if such a thing exists? Did these trains in their final years include vehicles with first class and toilets?
• Were they all steam heat only? I'm guessing none survived long enough to be fitted with ETH.

Any other info on operations of these vehicles appreciated. If I ever get around to building a layout, I'd like to include some.

 

[Taunton]

All regions got some. Generally they were mixed in with pre-Nationalisation equivalents. At Taunton there were a few, they were regarded as loose vehicles and just marshalled onto traditional GWR B-sets. All the WR ones were on full length frames. There seemed to be a number on the Southern at Exeter, painted green of course. They pretty much disappeared by the mid-1960s with steam locomotives as Beeching closures redeployed dmus and closed local services. They stayed at Kings Cross because they provided maximum seating on short 57' frames, required for the tight gauge Widened Lines to Moorgate, and there were no short frame dmus with high density suburban seating.

Very first generation BR stock. Steam heat, B1 bogies, screw couplings only no buckeyes. Some second class ones were open, others compartment.

 

[AY1975]

Some second class ones were open, others compartment.

AFAIK the first class ones were all compartment (some side corridor, some non-corridor but all non-gangwayed). I think there were some corridor composites with the first and second class side corridor on opposite sides of the coach and two toilets, one for each class, but no access between the two classes.

I'm fairly sure that the King's Cross services formed of suburban Mark 1 stock that lasted into the 1970s were all second class only at least latterly. I believe that they were the last services on BR to have "ladies only" compartments.

 

[eastwestdivide]

There's a bunch of threads on these over on the RMWeb modelling forum, e.g.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/i...-commuter-traffic-to-hitchinbaldock-n-beyond/
which has formations.
Try a search for

rmweb mk1 suburban moorgate

 

[30907]

My memories are of the outer suburban ( Baldock etc) sets which had the various lavatory types (to me, hauled equivalents of SR 2-Hap and 3-D/3-H) which I seem to remember running into York Road as well as the Suburban station.
The next longest survivors must have been in the Kenny Belle set, which I think outlasted the end of steam in 1967 but not for very long.

 

[Taunton]

Start of 1976 this was the remaining fleet : 6 CL; 13 BS; 51 S; 6 SLO. Presumably those reading this know the codes! All at Kings Cross, and all short frame. Probably several were actually non-runners. If they were all 6 coach sets that seems to give 12 sets, all with one lavatory vehicle, half of those with first class and half not, with 1 BS and 3 S spare.

The GN suburban trains had a long history of having the oldest and most dilapidated stock on the system. Not only these, but the Gresley wooden-bodied quad-art sets lasted into the mid-1960s, with diesel haulage, and I read somewhere that it was also the last stand of a major carriage fleet with gas lighting. In pre-Nationalisation times the services (mainly peak hour) from Welwyn, Gordon Hill, etc into Broad Street, down the spur from Finsbury Park, had traditionally all needed to be supplied by the North London Railway with their own stock, due to some legal reason, and this continued to the end of the LMS, but the same agreement made them required but unprofitable to provide. So right up to nationalisation the LMS apparently retained the old NLR stock, 4-wheeled and with wooden seats just for these trains.

Regarding Ladies Only compartments, I did think the last of these were the SUB/EPB compartment units on the Southern. It was always the compartment at the extreme end of the set.

I don't know where the requirement on the Widened Lines for short frame vehicles and a 6-coach maximum actually arose. Both the Great Northern and Midland services moved on to short-frame Cravens dmus for these operations, with unsuitable low density seating. Whatever it was, it was presumably sorted out before the BedPan electrification, with full size 8-car emus, came along in the 1980s.

 

[yorksrob]

There's a very nice example of one in one of the KWVR's sets if anyone fancies travelling in one.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not quite, Taunton. The NLR four wheelers went in the 1930’s and were replaced by bogie vehicles. That service came off during the war and when it re-commenced afterwards it was with LNER locos and stock. The loco hauled out of Broad Street lasted until 1969.

The gas lit quad arts were the GN design and they went with the introduction of the BR suburban stock in the 1950’s. The LNER design were electrically lit. These lasted until 1966.

By 1976 the “block enders” as we on the GN called the suburban stock were well past their best but all were very much in service. Throughout the 1970’s it was always an anxious moment when a rough looking one would be shopped to York Works. Would we get it back or would it condemned “on the money” (monetary repair limits)? They were only getting C3 or C4 classified repairs and being design made rot boxes, it was getting very hard to keep them going.

The normal limit of 6 coaches was something that came from Moorgate, where it was a limit of 5 plus loco prior to rebuilding. The Midland sub trains could be 64ft long DMU’s but we on the GN were limited to 57” because of the curvature of our connections to the widened lines.

Formations could occasionally be longer than load 6 for trains operating out of the suburban side at KX and those trains from KX normally had the SLO and CL types as they did the longer distance runs down the main line, sometimes with two CL in one train.For shorter work it was mostly 5xS and 1xBS with occasionally a CL subbing for a S if first class was required. Likewise an SLO could be found instead of an S. In all cases the BS would normally be the 3rd or 4th vehicle.

The KX vehicles were the last in service by a long margin, although the fleet did gradually reduce over the years. The LMR London suburban services lost theirs in 1968, the SR lost their last ones with steam in mid 1967, shortly after the Scottish finished with theirs on the introduction of the 311 units and some DMU replacements.

 

[Taunton]

Thank you. What were the LMS locos used on the GN suburban trains from Broad Street until 1939? Were they Jinties from Devons Road shed, or did the old NLR locos last until the end?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Jinties from Devons Road.

 

[Journeyman]

There's a very nice example of one in one of the KWVR's sets if anyone fancies travelling in one.

They have quite a few of them, actually, although apparently they've been altered a bit since their BR days. I do hope to visit soon, as it seems a trip there is more than likely to give you a chance to ride in one.

 

[John Webb]

The North Norfolk Railway have a set of 4 suburban Mk 1 coaches:
E43041 BR 1954 CL
W46139 BR 1954 T
E48001 BR 1955 TLO
E43357 BR 1955 BT
These were put into service in 2017 after restoration to form a 'BR Suburban' set as a comparison to their 'Quad-art' set.

 

[30907]

They have quite a few of them, actually, although apparently they've been altered a bit since their BR days. I do hope to visit soon, as it seems a trip there is more than likely to give you a chance to ride in one.

There's almost always a BS in service.

 

[Bevan Price]

Not quite, Taunton. The NLR four wheelers went in the 1930’s and were replaced by bogie vehicles. That service came off during the war and when it re-commenced afterwards it was with LNER locos and stock. The loco hauled out of Broad Street lasted until 1969.

The gas lit quad arts were the GN design and they went with the introduction of the BR suburban stock in the 1950’s. The LNER design were electrically lit. These lasted until 1966.

By 1976 the “block enders” as we on the GN called the suburban stock were well past their best but all were very much in service. Throughout the 1970’s it was always an anxious moment when a rough looking one would be shopped to York Works. Would we get it back or would it condemned “on the money” (monetary repair limits)? They were only getting C3 or C4 classified repairs and being design made rot boxes, it was getting very hard to keep them going.

The normal limit of 6 coaches was something that came from Moorgate, where it was a limit of 5 plus loco prior to rebuilding. The Midland sub trains could be 64ft long DMU’s but we on the GN were limited to 57” because of the curvature of our connections to the widened lines.

Where exactly was the "difficult" section of the widened lines ? In about 1963/64, I went down part of the widened lines on main line stock (including Gresley or Thompson Open Seconds) from Finsbury Park to Brighton via Blackfriars & East Croydon on a Sunday excursion, hauled by a Class 24.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It was BR 64ft C1 stock that was the problem, not other stock. I believe the 64ft stock could actually make it through the tunnels (because one or two are rumoured to have done by accident!) but it was very, very close and one may have been damaged in the process. I think that may have been a Cl.125.

The NNR set has a good example of the ER taking on some ex WR stock when that region purged it’s non corridor stock in 1963/4. W46139 was condemned as E46139 on 4/3/72, part of a large batch of 18 that were sent to the then KX Divisional dumping ground at Connington. E43041 was also condemned at Connington with three others on 16/11/74. E43357 was condemned at the replacement site, Whittlesea, on 7/1/77 with 4 others - quite a few ending up there in the first few months of 1977.

E48001 was the last of the four to be withdrawn, part of the penultimate batch of 14 that were condemned at Welwyn GC on 18/10/77. Relatively new on the railway, I actually wrote the letters out to the Area C&W Supervisor to make those vehicles ready for movement on their sale in 1978. Later that year I moved to the Divisional office, from whose records I have been quoting.

 

[36270k]

Mk1 suburban coaches were also used in the Glasgow area, not in sets but mixed in with ex-LMS and LNER coaches.

 

[delt1c]

I believe that some WR examples had equipment for slip working , although I don’t believe they were ever used as slip coaches

 

[30907]

I believe that some WR examples had equipment for slip working , although I don’t believe they were ever used as slip coaches

Really? Non corridor Brakes?

 

[delt1c]

Really? Non corridor Brakes?

I am sure it was in the Book about Mk1's and it showed a picture of a Suburban brake with eyelets for slip working

 

[Taunton]

Really? Non corridor Brakes?

They weren't used as Slip coaches as such, but when the Slip was attached to a vehicle ahead, even when not slipping, this needed a bit of extra fittings for the special couplings etc. So the WR as policy fitted all their brake end vehicles as such, just in case. Slip coaches were not only attached to expresses which were slipping. For example, the one slipped at Westbury from the down Cornish Riviera was then attached to a local service to take it onward to Weymouth. It was then hauled, in reverse, by another local service from Weymouth to Bristol, from where the next day it was on the back of an Up Paddington express, and was slipped at Reading, then taken on to Paddington by some convenient local service, the whole diagram needing two vehicles, and these local train brake vehicles were all able to handle a slip vehicle just attached. They didn't have any of the actual slip equipment.

 

[Journeyman]

I am sure it was in the Book about Mk1's and it showed a picture of a Suburban brake with eyelets for slip working

Yup. No evidence they were actually used, but it is indeed in the book.

 

[30907]

They weren't used as Slip coaches as such, but when the Slip was attached to a vehicle ahead, even when not slipping, this needed a bit of extra fittings for the special couplings etc. So the WR as policy fitted all their brake end vehicles as such, just in case. Slip coaches were not only attached to expresses which were slipping. For example, the one slipped at Westbury from the down Cornish Riviera was then attached to a local service to take it onward to Weymouth. It was then hauled, in reverse, by another local service from Weymouth to Bristol, from where the next day it was on the back of an Up Paddington express, and was slipped at Reading, then taken on to Paddington by some convenient local service, the whole diagram needing two vehicles, and these local train brake vehicles were all able to handle a slip vehicle just attached. They didn't have any of the actual slip equipment.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.

 

[Taunton]

I don't recall what the actual fittings were on the brake ends of older WR vehicles. It will be apparent that when a slip coach is detached at speed, the vacuum pipes on both vehicles need to be sealed, which is done by the slip lever mechanism which in some way also operates a special seal on the rear of the main train. I seem to recall also there were some small security chains there, which possibly were a backup to retain the seal in case it fell out, and this may have been what the coach end fittings were to hold. You also needed brackets for additional tail lamps on the main train, which were a special configuration and advised to signalboxes so as the train passed they could determine that the train had the requisite slip vehicles attached or not. I believe that the Cornish Riviera, with three slips, used about 20 tail lamps on the various rear coaches (4 of them) to denote which part was which.

There were all sorts of conditions which had to be covered by procedures, failure of the special slip coupling before the detachment point, the special seal failing and the brakes coming on one or both portions, etc. Fascinating.

 

[muddythefish]

I remember these old coaches well, before the GNR electrification. Stuffy and uncomfortable and an anachronism even in the 1970s but wonderfully atmospheric and always better than the DMUs around at the time. A journey down the "drain" to Moorgate through the old wooden platformed York Road station next to Kings Cross was always memorable, and even better was the return northwards journey - the sound of the Brush Type 2's (Class 31) engine as it struggled up the gradient into the KX widened lines (as they were known) was music to the ears.

I also saw them with unusual haulage too - on one occasion Peak D176 turned up at New Barnet with a Moorgate train and I also remember seeing a baby Deltic at Potters Bar on the "Suburbans" too - the only time I ever saw a baby Deltic working,

 

[delt1c]

As an aside did any other companies use ski coaches and if so when did they end ?

 

[30907]

As an aside did any other companies use ski coaches and if so when did they end ?

If you mean slip coaches, yes they did, typically until the 1920s/30s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach (not necessarily a perfect article, but a start).

 

[hexagon789]

Here's one I've been curious about about non-gangwayed Mk1s and never seen a quoted figure for - what speed were they permitted? 90mph as with similarly bogied gangwayed Mk1s or less?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Thanks for all the informative detail about the Moorgate sets, especially to Clarence Yard but...
I'm sure the coaches (I think, the BR standard ones) used on the LMR Moorgate services had 'Metrogauge' painted on the end, or at least were referred to by this name; I have a dim recollection that it might be something to do with cut-down ventilators. of course, the LM ones were all 57'.
There was something else odd about the widened Lines. Ex-LMS NPCCS sometimes had what resembled the condemned catseyes (cross in a circle), but a transfer in gold with black edging, and I think this meant either suitable for or banned from, the Widened Lines, (can't remember which).

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure the coaches (I think, the BR standard ones) used on the LMR Moorgate services had 'Metrogauge' painted on the end, or at least were referred to by this name; I have a dim recollection that it might be something to do with cut-down ventilators. of course, the LM ones were all 57'.

My recollection equally dim, but was it that the ventilators were moved from the crown of the roof, BR stock having them pretty much top dead centre, out to the edges, possibly to gain a few inches of overall height. Not a reason for short length though.

 

[DidcotDickie]

I remember these old coaches well, before the GNR electrification. Stuffy and uncomfortable and an anachronism even in the 1970s but wonderfully atmospheric and always better than the DMUs around at the time. A journey down the "drain" to Moorgate through the old wooden platformed York Road station next to Kings Cross was always memorable, and even better was the return northwards journey - the sound of the Brush Type 2's (Class 31) engine as it struggled up the gradient into the KX widened lines (as they were known) was music to the ears.

I also saw them with unusual haulage too - on one occasion Peak D176 turned up at New Barnet with a Moorgate train and I also remember seeing a baby Deltic at Potters Bar on the "Suburbans" too - the only time I ever saw a baby Deltic working,

They were certainly atmospheric, particularly if you had the window down!

Here's a video taken in the mid 70's by an old schoolfriend of mine. The film runs from Barbican to Kings X via Farringdon, what became Kings X Thameslink and the Hotel Curve.

Sorry the quality isn't brilliant by today's standards and there's no sound. You can certainly see the 'atmosphere' though in the Clerkenwell Tunnels between Farringdon and Kings X!