Mark One Coach interiors - Moquettes

Masborough

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I'm a fan of the 70s and 80s 'railblue' period and one of the things I'm curious about at the moment is what Mark One loco hauled coach interiors were like at the time (being too young at the time to remember if I travelled on any), particularly seat moquettes. I'd be very grateful if anyone can help with the following:
I gather that generally speaking 'Trojan' moquette was used in Standard saloons and compartments throughout the whole period; I also assume 'Bournemouth Blue' moquette came later. Were many coaches referbished with this and was this limited to particular regions, for example?

All the first class compartment seats I have seen have been in 'Charcoal Cheque' moquette. Am I right in assuming this was the case through the 70s and 80s?

Ive seen no interior photos of Mark ones First Opens from the 70s/80s does anyone know what moquette used in these?

Again I'd be grateful for any further info. I also apologize if this has already been discussed elsewhere, I couldn't find anything by a quick search. Thanks.

Finally for anyone who's interested there is a video on You Tube, search 'Football Special- Away Days- Forest v Spurs' (sorry couldn't get link to work) 80s footage of St Pancras (?) Along with coach interiors...
 
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Sprinter107

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I remember the 116 and 120 dmus having trojan moquette in second class and the charcoal check moquette in first class, before refurbishment. Some ofcourse drivers seats still do have the charcoal check.
 

Sprinter107

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On the subject of coach interiors, would anyone be able to tell me the colour of the first class seats in a brand new 117. I've managed to find out the second class ones were red moquette with cream leatherette headrests, but cant find any info on first class moqutte for the 117s. Just so I can make my model look authentic.
 

dubscottie

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There is a company that makes seat coverings for coaches etc to BR spec. Iirc they have the history of each also. Each sector/works varied. For example SR/WR might have used the same fabric as EMU stock but ER/SCR did not. Many MK1 were facelifted also. It's a bit of a minefield as there was no one standard.

Regarding the FO. Most were downgraded to seconds. I have a good article from the 80s I could scan.
 

hexagon789

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On the subject of coach interiors, would anyone be able to tell me the colour of the first class seats in a brand new 117. I've managed to find out the second class ones were red moquette with cream leatherette headrests, but cant find any info on first class moqutte for the 117s. Just so I can make my model look authentic.
This is a works photograph from 1959, taken off the railcar website:

5cr-146.jpg

It is black and white, but from the same source here's a colour photo from the 1980s:

18-w6691-15.jpg

(All photo credit to railcar.co.uk)
 

KevinTurvey

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9 Oct 2016
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I have seen a book called British Railways Mk 1 coaches by Keith Parkin, this is probably the definitive guide if you can get a copy from your library.

Here are a couple of interior shots, although from the preservation era, these are more or less as they would have looked in the late 70's and 80's The first has the original luggage racks, the original tables and the original window frames but the first incarnation of fluorescent lighting, the new seats (the originals had a solid timber wing rather than an upholstered one) and some Formica internal panels (previously all timber originally)

The second is has the newer style luggage racks, the newer style tables and newer style windows and more Formica.
IMGP1148r educed.jpg IMGP1149 reduced.jpg
 

delt1c

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There was even some 2SAP's on the Southern region which had seats trimmed in RT cloth which assume was sourced from LT
 

yorksrob

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I'm a fan of the 70s and 80s 'railblue' period and one of the things I'm curious about at the moment is what Mark One loco hauled coach interiors were like at the time (being too young at the time to remember if I travelled on any), particularly seat moquettes. I'd be very grateful if anyone can help with the following:
I gather that generally speaking 'Trojan' moquette was used in Standard saloons and compartments throughout the whole period; I also assume 'Bournemouth Blue' moquette came later. Were many coaches referbished with this and was this limited to particular regions, for example?

All the first class compartment seats I have seen have been in 'Charcoal Cheque' moquette. Am I right in assuming this was the case through the 70s and 80s?

Ive seen no interior photos of Mark ones First Opens from the 70s/80s does anyone know what moquette used in these?

Again I'd be grateful for any further info. I also apologize if this has already been discussed elsewhere, I couldn't find anything by a quick search. Thanks.

Finally for anyone who's interested there is a video on You Tube, search 'Football Special- Away Days- Forest v Spurs' (sorry couldn't get link to work) 80s footage of St Pancras (?) Along with coach interiors...
I'm quite fond of the designs of that era myself. The Bluebell Railway website has good info on Moquettes from the era

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw/moquette/

In terms of the Southern Region, Trojan seems to have come in with the Kent Electrification scheme of 1959/62 and spread onwards.

Bournemouth Blue dates from the Bournemouth Electrification scheme, and was used for new trains such as CIG's and VEP's as well as some refurbishments from then onwards, so there was mix of the two until the mid 80's/90's when sectorisation era designs started coming in.
 

WesternLancer

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12 Apr 2019
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1,637
I'm a fan of the 70s and 80s 'railblue' period and one of the things I'm curious about at the moment is what Mark One loco hauled coach interiors were like at the time (being too young at the time to remember if I travelled on any), particularly seat moquettes. I'd be very grateful if anyone can help with the following:
I gather that generally speaking 'Trojan' moquette was used in Standard saloons and compartments throughout the whole period; I also assume 'Bournemouth Blue' moquette came later. Were many coaches referbished with this and was this limited to particular regions, for example?

All the first class compartment seats I have seen have been in 'Charcoal Cheque' moquette. Am I right in assuming this was the case through the 70s and 80s?

I've seen no interior photos of Mark ones First Opens from the 70s/80s does anyone know what moquette used in these?

Again I'd be grateful for any further info. I also apologize if this has already been discussed elsewhere, I couldn't find anything by a quick search. Thanks.

Finally for anyone who's interested there is a video on You Tube, search 'Football Special- Away Days- Forest v Spurs' (sorry couldn't get link to work) 80s footage of St Pancras (?) Along with coach interiors...
Ms Lancer had a 1st class priv thanks to her dad when she was growing up so 1970s 1st class Mk1 interior fabrics is one her favorites and she insists it was 'everywhere' (Square Grid Gold) - that is the name according to this manufacturers website who still make it. That would have been in loco hauled trains in the 1970s before HSTs took over her service.

https://heritagerailfabric.co.uk/catalogue.php

In fact I suspect since I found that link next time our sofa is re-upholstered maybe it will get done in that!!

So she would say less charcoal check in her experience.

in 70s and 80s I was using SR EMUs on a daily basis to go to school. Lots of Trojan - esp in 2 HAPs and I think older build 4 CIGs as well, but o in newer ones and I think VEPs, it was Bournemouth Blue. I'm not convinced that there was a process of upgrading the ones fitted with Trojan to Bournemouth Blue - which would suggest both were used in parallel, and not much significant refurb came until the 1980s for that stock so changes would have related to re-trimming wound they not? EG after incidences of vandalism to wear and tear to fabric.

The CIGs and VEPs gradually went over to NSE Donkey Stripe IIRC. Loco hauled SR Mk1 stock got Donkey Stripe but before then I seem to think it was usually Trojan. Can't recall 1st class. Obv not much loco hauled stock on the Southern Region.

Was there much in the way of Mk1 First Open stock?
 

yorksrob

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Ms Lancer had a 1st class priv thanks to her dad when she was growing up so 1970s 1st class Mk1 interior fabrics is one her favorites and she insists it was 'everywhere' (Square Grid Gold) - that is the name according to this manufacturers website who still make it. That would have been in loco hauled trains in the 1970s before HSTs took over her service.

https://heritagerailfabric.co.uk/catalogue.php

In fact I suspect since I found that link next time our sofa is re-upholstered maybe it will get done in that!!

So she would say less charcoal check in her experience.

in 70s and 80s I was using SR EMUs on a daily basis to go to school. Lots of Trojan - esp in 2 HAPs and I think older build 4 CIGs as well, but o in newer ones and I think VEPs, it was Bournemouth Blue. I'm not convinced that there was a process of upgrading the ones fitted with Trojan to Bournemouth Blue - which would suggest both were used in parallel, and not much significant refurb came until the 1980s for that stock so changes would have related to re-trimming wound they not? EG after incidences of vandalism to wear and tear to fabric.

The CIGs and VEPs gradually went over to NSE Donkey Stripe IIRC. Loco hauled SR Mk1 stock got Donkey Stripe but before then I seem to think it was usually Trojan. Can't recall 1st class. Obv not much loco hauled stock on the Southern Region.

Was there much in the way of Mk1 First Open stock?
I expect that some of the EPB's that were refurbished with Bournemouth Blue in the early 1980's might have had trojan previously (along with some thumpers), but by and large the two existed in parallel.
 

Masborough

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Messages
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Manchester
Thank you to everyone who has provided a response, I really appreciate it.

There is a company that makes seat coverings for coaches etc to BR spec. Iirc they have the history of each also. Each sector/works varied. For example SR/WR might have used the same fabric as EMU stock but ER/SCR did not. Many MK1 were facelifted also. It's a bit of a minefield as there was no one standard.

Regarding the FO. Most were downgraded to seconds. I have a good article from the 80s I could scan.
Thanks dubscottie, yeah I'd be interested in that article. As WesternLancer mentioned I'm not sure I've actually seen a Blue and Grey First Open. In fact all the pictures I've seen seem to be restaurant coaches in railtours...

This is a works photograph from 1959, taken off the railcar website:

View attachment 75787

It is black and white, but from the same source here's a colour photo from the 1980s:

View attachment 75788

(All photo credit to railcar.co.uk)
I think the orange moquette in the picture was sometimes used in 1st class where Standard was Bournemouth Blue? . I believe I've seen it in first class in other DMUs and early mark 2 Compartments? I wonder if it ever appeared in a Mark One as an anomaly?
 

hexagon789

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I think the orange moquette in the picture was sometimes used in 1st class where Standard was Bournemouth Blue? . I believe I've seen it in first class in other DMUs and early mark 2 Compartments? I wonder if it ever appeared in a Mark One as an anomaly?
I seem to remember reading something about orange in first, blue in 2nd/std but for the life of me I cannot remember exactly what nor where. I'll do a bit of digging later
 

Masborough

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Joined
25 Mar 2020
Messages
10
Location
Manchester
Ms Lancer had a 1st class priv thanks to her dad when she was growing up so 1970s 1st class Mk1 interior fabrics is one her favorites and she insists it was 'everywhere' (Square Grid Gold) - that is the name according to this manufacturers website who still make it. That would have been in loco hauled trains in the 1970s before HSTs took over her service.

https://heritagerailfabric.co.uk/catalogue.php

In fact I suspect since I found that link next time our sofa is re-upholstered maybe it will get done in that!!

So she would say less charcoal check in her experience.

in 70s and 80s I was using SR EMUs on a daily basis to go to school. Lots of Trojan - esp in 2 HAPs and I think older build 4 CIGs as well, but o in newer ones and I think VEPs, it was Bournemouth Blue. I'm not convinced that there was a process of upgrading the ones fitted with Trojan to Bournemouth Blue - which would suggest both were used in parallel, and not much significant refurb came until the 1980s for that stock so changes would have related to re-trimming wound they not? EG after incidences of vandalism to wear and tear to fabric.

The CIGs and VEPs gradually went over to NSE Donkey Stripe IIRC. Loco hauled SR Mk1 stock got Donkey Stripe but before then I seem to think it was usually Trojan. Can't recall 1st class. Obv not much loco hauled stock on the Southern Region.

Was there much in the way of Mk1 First Open stock?
The Torrington website itself suggests Square Grid Gold was in use between 1965 and 1982 and was later used in hauled stock referbs, so that would make sense.
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you to everyone who has provided a response, I really appreciate it.



Thanks dubscottie, yeah I'd be interested in that article. As WesternLancer mentioned I'm not sure I've actually seen a Blue and Grey First Open. In fact all the pictures I've seen seem to be restaurant coaches in railtours...



I think the orange moquette in the picture was sometimes used in 1st class where Standard was Bournemouth Blue? . I believe I've seen it in first class in other DMUs and early mark 2 Compartments? I wonder if it ever appeared in a Mark One as an anomaly?
In fact all the pictures I've seen seem to be restaurant coaches in railtours...

I think others will know but I seem to recall that restaurant cars back in the day had loose seats - ie not screwed down - but many open Mk1's have gone on to be used as restaurant / dining cars with their fixed tables in the preservation / railtour era of their lives. No doubt that book mentioned up thread would clarify
 

WesternLancer

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The Torrington website itself suggests Square Grid Gold was in use between 1965 and 1982 and was later used in hauled stock referbs, so that would make sense.
Yes, and bearing in mind in the 1970s stock built in the 1950s would have been being re-upholstered etc it would no doubt have got that design in 1st.
I've seen it in the Met Cam 'Mk1' hauled Pullman's too I think.
ie in one of these:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kitmasterbloke/5677127709
 

Sprinter107

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376
This is a works photograph from 1959, taken off the railcar website:

View attachment 75787

It is black and white, but from the same source here's a colour photo from the 1980s:

View attachment 75788

(All photo credit to railcar.co.uk)
Thanks very much @hexagon789 for finding that out for me. Truly grateful. Nice to see a what a brand new class 117 was like, only remember them in blue and grey. Got a green model on order so wasnt sure on the colour of the first class moqutte when brand new. Thanks again.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks very much @hexagon789 for finding that out for me. Truly grateful. Nice to see a what a brand new class 117 was like, only remember them in blue and grey. Got a green model on order so wasnt sure on the colour of the first class moqutte when brand new. Thanks again.
No problem, if you're interested have a look on the railcar site, plenty more photos and information to be had.
 

yorksrob

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The earliest versions I remember in Mark 1 coaches -3rd (later reclassified 2nd) Class coaches were the "Boomerang" & "Chain Link" moquettes as in this site:
https://heritagerailfabric.co.uk/catalogue.php

Other (later) moquettes appeared as Mark 1 coaches were refurbished.
Boomerang is rather attractive.

Given that reds and oranges seem to be in fashion as far as train interiors go, perhaps its due a comeback.
 

Taunton

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I think others will know but I seem to recall that restaurant cars back in the day had loose seats - ie not screwed down - but many open Mk1's have gone on to be used as restaurant / dining cars with their fixed tables in the preservation / railtour era of their lives. No doubt that book mentioned up thread would clarify
There were a large number of variations in Mk 1 stock for this, including separate restaurant cars for First and for Second Class passengers, doubtless so the former would not be upset by the latter slurping their soup. On the ECML the main trains commonly had three restaurant vehicles, a central full kitchen car flanked by a First class full restaurant car and a Second class one on the other side. I'm not sure if they had separate menus. There were constructional differences between them for spacing of the windows/bays, and they did indeed have loose chairs for seating. There were also several builds of first class open vehicles, but they weren't common.
 

WesternLancer

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There were a large number of variations in Mk 1 stock for this, including separate restaurant cars for First and for Second Class passengers, doubtless so the former would not be upset by the latter slurping their soup. On the ECML the main trains commonly had three restaurant vehicles, a central full kitchen car flanked by a First class full restaurant car and a Second class one on the other side. I'm not sure if they had separate menus. There were constructional differences between them for spacing of the windows/bays, and they did indeed have loose chairs for seating. There were also several builds of first class open vehicles, but they weren't common.
Thanks.
I was trying to recall of the 'Mk1 style' 4 Big buffets I was more familiar with also had loose chairs but I think not - having the conventional seating bays and tables IIRC. I did wonder how many regions operated the 3 carriage dining system you describe, but maybe on many trains that spanned key meal times? Or was it just an ECML thing?
 

hexagon789

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Thanks.
I was trying to recall of the 'Mk1 style' 4 Big buffets I was more familiar with also had loose chairs but I think not - having the conventional seating bays and tables IIRC. I did wonder how many regions operated the 3 carriage dining system you describe, but maybe on many trains that spanned key meal times? Or was it just an ECML thing?
I think it was ECML, a sort of continuation of the LNER's restaurant triplet sets.

The first Mk1 catering vehicles to the ER were sets of RFO-RK-RTO, the Western got twin sets of RF-RTO
 

30907

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I think it was ECML, a sort of continuation of the LNER's restaurant triplet sets.

The first Mk1 catering vehicles to the ER were sets of RFO-RK-RTO, the Western got twin sets of RF-RTO
The SR normally had restaurant twins at most, but acquired one of the Mk1 triple dining sets: its only booked working was the summer only replacement for the Devon Belle after 1954 - 12.5pm SO Waterloo-Ilfracombe and 10am Sun back, otherwise presumably for upmarket race specials etc...
I presume it was a busy enough train to justify it, but I suspect it was also a SR nod in the direction of standardisation. (The "Royal Wessex" got a set of Mk1s in 1951, but they were a bit of a problem: a Mk1 BSK only seats 32, a Bulleid seats 48, and there were 5 BSKs....).
 

WesternLancer

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The SR normally had restaurant twins at most, but acquired one of the Mk1 triple dining sets: its only booked working was the summer only replacement for the Devon Belle after 1954 - 12.5pm SO Waterloo-Ilfracombe and 10am Sun back, otherwise presumably for upmarket race specials etc...
I presume it was a busy enough train to justify it, but I suspect it was also a SR nod in the direction of standardisation. (The "Royal Wessex" got a set of Mk1s in 1951, but they were a bit of a problem: a Mk1 BSK only seats 32, a Bulleid seats 48, and there were 5 BSKs....).
Interesting stuff.
 

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