Market Street to Piccadilly Gardens Manchester Metrolink

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mcr Warrior

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
4,334
Not sure there are two lines from Market Street to Piccadilly Gardens. IIRC, the line splits immediately on departure from Market Street station, the left hand one (in the direction of normal travel) curves round towards Piccadilly Gardens station and the right hand one crosses over the triangular delta junction before continuing towards St. Peter's Square station.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,525
Location
Nottingham
There is a set of points at the departure end of Market Street where you can go straight on to Piccadilly Gardens or turn right for Mosley Street, as Mcr Warrior has just posted. From there, there is only one track leading to each place.

Not sure why this might be, but I'd guess because in this busy pedestrian area the driver can ensure there is nobody standing on the points before calling them to the correct setting, all during the stopping time at Market Street instead of having to stop between tramstops if the facing point was closer to the triangle. It also increases capacity a bit, as a tram can go towards Piccadilly while another one is waiting on the parallel bit if some other move is preventing it continuing onto Mosley Street.
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
There is a set of points at the departure end of Market Street where you can go straight on to Piccadilly Gardens or turn right for Mosley Street, as Mcr Warrior has just posted. From there, there is only one track leading to each place.

Not sure why this might be, but I'd guess because in this busy pedestrian area the driver can ensure there is nobody standing on the points before calling them to the correct setting, all during the stopping time at Market Street instead of having to stop between tramstops if the facing point was closer to the triangle. It also increases capacity a bit, as a tram can go towards Piccadilly while another one is waiting on the parallel bit if some other move is preventing it continuing onto Mosley Street.

Those points (MKT05P for anybody particularly bothered…) change automatically on approach based on the route code in the tram’s TMS box. The design dates back to the early days of Metrolink when those points were in fact between stations, as Market Street didn’t have an inbound platform.
 

Mcr Warrior

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2009
Messages
4,334
The design dates back to the early days of Metrolink when those points were in fact between stations, as Market Street didn’t have an inbound platform.
Thanks. I'd completely forgotten that Market Street station didn't originally have a platform for both directions during much of the 1990's and only served trams heading towards Victoria/Bury. (Passengers at the time travelling in the opposite direction would have probably used the nearby (no longer there, and now demolished) High Street station, just around the corner, a few dozen yards back towards Victoria).
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
Thanks. I'd completely forgotten that Market Street station didn't originally have a platform for both directions during much of the 1990's and only served trams heading towards Victoria/Bury. (Passengers at the time travelling in the opposite direction would have probably used the nearby (no longer there) High Street station, just around the corner, a few dozen yards back towards Victoria).

Exactly. Market street wasn’t pedestrianised in those days with the bus Lane running where the current island platform is. There wasn’t enough room for the road and an inbound and outbound platform on Mosley street, so high street (and arguably Mosley street) were built instead.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
There is a set of points at the departure end of Market Street where you can go straight on to Piccadilly Gardens or turn right for Mosley Street, as Mcr Warrior has just posted. From there, there is only one track leading to each place.

Not sure why this might be, but I'd guess because in this busy pedestrian area the driver can ensure there is nobody standing on the points before calling them to the correct setting, all during the stopping time at Market Street instead of having to stop between tramstops if the facing point was closer to the triangle. It also increases capacity a bit, as a tram can go towards Piccadilly while another one is waiting on the parallel bit if some other move is preventing it continuing onto Mosley Street.

The other thing to bear in mind is that there used to be a road between the two tracks - the Piccadilly bound line and the St. Peters Square bound line (And the road continued through what is the present day Market Street platform between the two tracks).


Also the wide loop for the Piccadilly bound line gives plenty of standage spare to regulate a tram awaiting access to Piccadilly Gardens in the event of a conflicting arrival from the St. Peter's Square direction; there is a "Give Way" at the entry to Piccadilly Gardens where trams from Market Street must give priority to trams from SPS (the latter, if double, cannot stand clear of the Delta Junction).
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,525
Location
Nottingham
Those points (MKT05P for anybody particularly bothered…) change automatically on approach based on the route code in the tram’s TMS box. The design dates back to the early days of Metrolink when those points were in fact between stations, as Market Street didn’t have an inbound platform.
Quite surprised that's allowed, considering the number of pedestrians who wander all over them.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
68,945
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Quite surprised that's allowed, considering the number of pedestrians who wander all over them.

If I recall rightly from reading the little commemorative book about the original opening, it's done literally just as the tram reaches them, so the risk of trapping is negligible.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
If I recall rightly from reading the little commemorative book about the original opening, it's done literally just as the tram reaches them, so the risk of trapping is negligible.

Yes, it's deliberate to only switch as the tram approaches for that reason, so pedestrians have moved out of the way of the approaching tram already.
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
Quite surprised that's allowed, considering the number of pedestrians who wander all over them.

It’s done within the last 10m of travel before reaching the station stop mark. Same as most street running points. It’s supposed to discourage people from being on there, as you’d think an approaching 30m long, 40 ton, bright yellow tram would discourage people from walking there…
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,525
Location
Nottingham
It’s done within the last 10m of travel before reaching the station stop mark. Same as most street running points. It’s supposed to discourage people from being on there, as you’d think an approaching 30m long, 40 ton, bright yellow tram would discourage people from walking there…
That's true, but lots of people will know (or think they know) that it's going to stop at the tramstop before it moves onto the points. And it's on the desire line of people who might be hurrying to catch the tram.

We spent a lot of time thinking about that type of hazard at places like Rochdale and Ashton.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
That's true, but lots of people will know (or think they know) that it's going to stop at the tramstop before it moves onto the points. And it's on the desire line of people who might be hurrying to catch the tram.

We spent a lot of time thinking about that type of hazard at places like Rochdale and Ashton.

Has there been any actual incidents of points trappings in nearly 30 years of Metrolink operation?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
21,525
Location
Nottingham
Has there been any actual incidents of points trappings in nearly 30 years of Metrolink operation?
I'm not aware of any, but there are no real statistics available on incidents that might not trigger a RAIB investigation (and even accident reports from the 1990s are difficult to track down). It was certainly an issue in the safety workshops I was involved in for Phase 3.
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
That's true, but lots of people will know (or think they know) that it's going to stop at the tramstop before it moves onto the points. And it's on the desire line of people who might be hurrying to catch the tram.

We spent a lot of time thinking about that type of hazard at places like Rochdale and Ashton.

That’s what I was hinting at. The operation of the points is a hangover from the days before the station was there. It actually causes issues as you can’t follow another vehicle onto Market st outbound platform without getting a ‘stored demand’ on the points meaning you have to get down and swing them manually.

Changing them to an RTS demand set would cause a hell of a lot of wrong routes though.

Has there been any actual incidents of points trappings in nearly 30 years of Metrolink operation?

No.
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
4,063
Has there been any actual incidents of points trappings in nearly 30 years of Metrolink operation?
But there's been plenty of Manchester's airborne garbage fell in & nearly jammed them, if I recall in 2011, the debris pit under them was dug even deeper to accommodate more junk.
 

40129

Member
Joined
23 May 2014
Messages
368
Regarding people instinctively moving out of the way when they see a big yellow tram approaching, I remember a vaguely amusing incident involving an original Metrolink tram in the Market Street area. These trams had two horns - a standard road vehicle one and a standard railway one (the latter being much louder). The driver was trying to encourage pedestrians who seemingly didn't instinctively move out of the way of a green and whiter tram by using the road vehicle horn without much success. So, suddenly, he gave a quick blast on the loud tone of the railway horn. I've never seen so many pedestrians move out of the way so quickly
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
Regarding people instinctively moving out of the way when they see a big yellow tram approaching, I remember a vaguely amusing incident involving an original Metrolink tram in the Market Street area. These trams had two horns - a standard road vehicle one and a standard railway one (the latter being much louder). The driver was trying to encourage pedestrians who seemingly didn't instinctively move out of the way of a green and whiter tram by using the road vehicle horn without much success. So, suddenly, he gave a quick blast on the loud tone of the railway horn. I've never seen so many pedestrians move out of the way so quickly

The new ones are the same. To be slightly pedantic however you have a street whistle and segregated horn. On the T68s they were both air operated, on the M5000s there’s a loud speaker under the cab floor that plays a recording of the whistle/horn.

Sounding the segregated horn is officially forbidden in street running areas, however sometimes it’s absolutely necessary.
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
3,138
Location
N Yorks
The new ones are the same. To be slightly pedantic however you have a street whistle and segregated horn. On the T68s they were both air operated, on the M5000s there’s a loud speaker under the cab floor that plays a recording of the whistle/horn.

Sounding the segregated horn is officially forbidden in street running areas, however sometimes it’s absolutely necessary.
I thought the horn used was set by whether the tram was in street mode or segredated mode. I think all sorts of stuff changed when the tram switched from segregated to street and vice versa, incl the horn used.
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
I thought the horn used was set by whether the tram was in street mode or segredated mode. I think all sorts of stuff changed when the tram switched from segregated to street and vice versa, incl the horn used.

On a T68 in early days, yes, in 'street' or 'street without steps' the button on the Traction Brake controller sounded the street whistle (Not a Horn, an actual brass chime whistle). In 'Segregated' then the same button on the TBC sounded the Segregated horn.

In both 'Street' modes, speed was also limited to 30mph.

After the T68M programme a button was fitted to the driver's desk for the segregated horn (The trams were now expected to be able to run in traffic on the eccles line, and the street whistle isn't always loud enough against a car/bus/truck), rather than the button on the TBC. On an M5000 there are separate pedals for each.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
I thought the horn used was set by whether the tram was in street mode or segredated mode. I think all sorts of stuff changed when the tram switched from segregated to street and vice versa, incl the horn used.

On a T68 in early days, yes, in 'street' or 'street without steps' the button on the Traction Brake controller sounded the street whistle (Not a Horn, an actual brass chime whistle). In 'Segregated' then the same button on the TBC sounded the Segregated horn.

In both 'Street' modes, speed was also limited to 30mph.

After the T68M programme a button was fitted to the driver's desk for the segregated horn (The trams were now expected to be able to run in traffic on the eccles line, and the street whistle isn't always loud enough against a car/bus/truck), rather than the button on the TBC. On an M5000 there are separate pedals for each.

Yes, I distinctly remember the "Segregated" horn being blasted at St. Peters Square at a car driver who'd run a red light in front of the tram. Though in my head that was before the T68M programme (though could just be hazy memory on my part).
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
3,138
Location
N Yorks
Yes, I distinctly remember the "Segregated" horn being blasted at St. Peters Square at a car driver who'd run a red light in front of the tram. Though in my head that was before the T68M programme (though could just be hazy memory on my part).
so what made the tram segregated? driver pressing a button, or some automatic thing? Could the driver have flicked to segregated, pressed the horn, then switched back again.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
so what made the tram segregated? driver pressing a button, or some automatic thing? Could the driver have flicked to segregated, pressed the horn, then switched back again.

I recall there was a turn handle on the right hand side of the cab with 3 settings:
-Street
-Street without steps (essentially as Street mode but did not depoly the steps on the rear unit in a double formation for full height platforms)
-Segregated

There used to be signs entering/leaving the street running sections to remind the driver "Change to Street / Segregated Running Mode"


I don' think the driver would have had time to change mode, press the horn, and change back again.
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,540
Location
Huyton
I recall there was a turn handle on the right hand side of the cab with 3 settings:
-Street
-Street without steps (essentially as Street mode but did not depoly the steps on the rear unit in a double formation for full height platforms)
-Segregated

There used to be signs entering/leaving the street running sections to remind the driver "Change to Street / Segregated Running Mode"


I don' think the driver would have had time to change mode, press the horn, and change back again.

He would have had to pre-T68M. It was the only way of doing it I believe. Although I only really have experience of T68Ms…

so what made the tram segregated? driver pressing a button, or some automatic thing? Could the driver have flicked to segregated, pressed the horn, then switched back again.

A large mode selector switch on the right hand side of the driver.
 

K.o.R

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
567
I recall there was a turn handle on the right hand side of the cab with 3 settings:
-Street
-Street without steps (essentially as Street mode but did not depoly the steps on the rear unit in a double formation for full height platforms)
-Segregated

There used to be signs entering/leaving the street running sections to remind the driver "Change to Street / Segregated Running Mode"


I don' think the driver would have had time to change mode, press the horn, and change back again.

Can confirm, saw a tram driver do this a few times when the whistle wasn't getting the message across.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
Bumping old thread, but managed to remind myself of the buttons in a T68 cab (1023) at Crewe Heritage Centre yesterday.

IIRC, the horn/toot was usually activated by the thumb button on the handle of the Traction and Braking Controller (the mode select changed between the street and segregated horns). But there is a separate Green "Seg Horn" on the console, which suspiciously looks like a retro-fit.

Shown in attached pictures:

20211016_115448.jpg


20211016_115445.jpg

20211016_115355.jpg
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
4,547
Location
Northern England
Bumping old thread, but managed to remind myself of the buttons in a T68 cab (1023) at Crewe Heritage Centre yesterday.

IIRC, the horn/toot was usually activated by the thumb button on the handle of the Traction and Braking Controller (the mode select changed between the street and segregated horns). But there is a separate Green "Seg Horn" on the console, which suspiciously looks like a retro-fit.

Shown in attached pictures:

View attachment 104175


View attachment 104174

View attachment 104176
How long is the T68 in the Heritage Centre for, or is it a permanent exhibit? I'd quite like to go and see it if I can get the chance.
 

Mothball

Member
Joined
26 Nov 2018
Messages
56
How long is the T68 in the Heritage Centre for, or is it a permanent exhibit? I'd quite like to go and see it if I can get the chance.
For the foreseeable. Waiting for an extension to the Lakeside depot at Heaton Park before it and 1007 can move. Will be plenty of time to see it at Crewe for the next season or two
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
14,520
For the foreseeable. Waiting for an extension to the Lakeside depot at Heaton Park before it and 1007 can move. Will be plenty of time to see it at Crewe for the next season or two

Is 1007 still at Queens Road?
 

Mothball

Member
Joined
26 Nov 2018
Messages
56
Is 1007 still at Queens Road?

It is stored at Trafford depot. Long, long term ambitions at Heaton Park are to have 1007 at least able to move under its own power. So its been kept indoors, dry for the most of its time since withdrawal. While 1023 will remain a static exhibit
 

Top