Massive increases for ALRs

[Death]

Hail again!

Travel here is commencing on 15th/16th May, and as such tickets are offered at the lower price for journeys starting then. If the rover starts on or after the 17th then the new fare will apply.

Same way with season tickets and anytime/off-peak returns with one leg going over into the new period. SWT actually displayed posters encouraging people to purchase their annual season tickets the day before the prices went up (even if it meant surrendering a few days) so as to purchase it at the lower fare.

Phew...That had me going for a minute! When I read Glynn's post last night, I was cursing like a right one that AToC had (It initially appeared) deliberateley only published the ALR price hike after the final date for getting old price ALRs had passed! hock:

So - Assuming I've got this right - I can still get it at the old price provided it starts before 23:59 on the 16th, then? Indeed...Can one start an ALR at a specific hour as well as date, or does it always start from 00:01 on the first day?

Yes, any ticket office can issue an ALR with any start date. There will be a limit as to how far in advance they can go, but I'm not sure what that would be.

With rovers they can only sell them 3 days in advance of the start date to avoid fraudulent travel before the start date.

Cheers for the advice guys! Although the three-day limit may be a bit of an inconvenience (Although I see why it's there) for me, at least it means I don't have to try and buy an ALR from the Guard on board the 05:56 ex Farnborough!

At the moment, sleeper reservations are available until 10th June. You need reservations for both sleepers, and they don't convey standing passengers. However, seated sleeper reservations are free. If you want a berth, you pay the supplement for the berth as needed.

Aye...I'd already looked up berth prices as I was planning on having at least two nights rest in a "prone" position, but after seeing the £36,- cost per night - Even though it's cheaper than the average Travelodge - I'm not sure if I can afford it, and Bargain Berths for next week or the week after will have probabally all sold out by now. :?
As it is, I'm planning to do a lot of my sleeping during the day on longer runs (NXEC, VT and GWR runs should be ideal for this!) and stay awake at night, so seated accommodation will be fine. I presume the seats on a sleeper would be similar to the ones in BR fitted HSTs, right?

No, I think you need to pay for the full length of your journey (unless you could get away with Preston or Carlisle?). Check Bargain Berths before you go, though. You might get a really good deal on your sleeper. On the last day of your journey, you can board the sleeper in the evening and arrive London the next morning; with no charge!

You can use two or more tickets for a journey provided the whole journey is covered and either, they meet at a station that the train stops at, or, one is a season ticket or leisure pass (valid for atleast 7 days, or 3 in 7 days, including rovers) and the other(s) is/are not. In my view a ticket to cover you till midnight should be fine, but you will need reservations for the sleeper.

Tonight the first station the Highland passes after midnight is Winsford and for the Lowland it's Wolverton. So a ticket to one of those places would be fine!

Cheers again for that guys! I was thinking of kick-starting with a CDS from Farnborough to Watford or Milton Keynes, but as the sleeper stops at neither after midnight (And I wouldn't want to be kicked-off at Watford!) the extra fare would be too high for my liking. I'll bear the idea in mind though, as I could always take a night journey after a one-day Travelcard, and have an eighth day spent covering the LT network! 8)

However I thought that tickets dated for either the date of departure or the date of arrival were accepted anyway? (Can someone check?) In which case all you need is a ticket to London!

Hmmm...Given that most of the Caledonian sleepers seem to leave Euston between 19:45 and 21:30, I'm not so sure that my ALR would be accepted on the day prior to it becoming fully valid. However, it really depends on how the validity of a ticket is viewed by NR - If the "date of operation" is considered to be the date that the train performs most of it's operation in (I.E: A sleeper would do four hours on a Monday, and then eight hours on a Tuesday - Thus the "ticketed" day for that service is Tuesday) then I could pull a sneaky ALR move. However, I have a feeling that "date of operation" might be taken from the day in which a service starts it's run.

Farewell for now, apologies for the long post, and cheers for any further advice!
>> Death <<

 

[John @ home]

So - Assuming I've got this right - I can still get it at the old price provided it starts before 23:59 on the 16th, then?

Yes.

Can one start an ALR at a specific hour as well as date

No.

does it always start from 00:01 on the first day?

Yes.

Bargain Berths for next week or the week after will have probably all sold out by now.

The following Bargain Berths are available for dates before 17 May:
London - Aberdeen: May 6(£49), 11(£49)
London - Glasgow: May 5(£49)
Inverness - London: May 13(£39)
Aberdeen - London: May 14(£49)
Glasgow - London: May 11(£49), 13(£49)
There are also 'ordinary' Advance Sleeper fares (route CAL SLEEPER ADV) which start at £49.50

I have a feeling that "date of operation" might be taken from the day in which a service starts it's run.

Correct

Good luck!

John

 

[Death]

Just to double-check: I could still get the current ALR fare even if I bought it on the 15th or 16th - Provided it starts on the 16th or earlier - Couldn't I?

 

[mumrar]

Don't know if anybody else has bothered working it out, but with the ALR having remained static for five years this works out an equivalent 2.8% increase year on year if they had done so. This isn't about how they are hiking it now to make money, if they've had done it 2.8% year on year they would have earnt far more. Year 2 up 2.8% on original, Year 2 up 5.7% on original, Year 3 up 8.6% on original, Year 4 up 11.7% on original and Year 5 up 14.8% on original. So now it stands at the 14.8% increase but without them having had the interim revenue rises from Year 1 to 4.

 

[dan_atki]

Just to double-check: I could still get the current ALR fare even if I bought it on the 15th or 16th - Provided it starts on the 16th or earlier - Couldn't I?

Correct .

Mod note: All the non-fare related discussion has been moved to a new thread at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23212. This includes posts and parts of posts (so apologies if your posts have been brutally spliced up - although all the content is still there!).

Please keep non-fares discussion to that thread, but of course feel free to post more fares questions relating to ALRs in here.

 

[tbtc]

Don't know if anybody else has bothered working it out, but with the ALR having remained static for five years this works out an equivalent 2.8% increase year on year if they had done so. This isn't about how they are hiking it now to make money, if they've had done it 2.8% year on year they would have earnt far more. Year 2 up 2.8% on original, Year 2 up 5.7% on original, Year 3 up 8.6% on original, Year 4 up 11.7% on original and Year 5 up 14.8% on original. So now it stands at the 14.8% increase but without them having had the interim revenue rises from Year 1 to 4.

Very good point.

That's not an unreasonable increase, when you see it like that. The ticket is still decent value for the minority who want to use it.

 

[furryfeet]

does Lord Adonis have it within his powers to
a) abolish ATOC altogether and run its functions directly from Merstham Street ?
b) hence be able to set the prices of all "National Rover" tickets, including the ALR himself ?
Presumably since he sees this as a "good value for money" ticket then he would want to price it as such, in order to win custom to the railways. (and possibly even a few votes !)

 

[John @ home]

does Lord Adonis have it within his powers to
a) abolish ATOC altogether and run its functions directly from Merstham Street ?

No. ATOC is a trade association which promotes the interests of its members, the train companies. Just as workers have the right to form trade unions to defend their interests, businesses have the right to form associations which promote theirs.

b) hence be able to set the prices of all "National Rover" tickets, including the ALR himself ?
Presumably since he sees this as a "good value for money" ticket then he would want to price it as such, in order to win custom to the railways. (and possibly even a few votes !)

At present legislation dictates that some rail fares are regulated and some are not. Rover tickets are not regulated. This means the train companies can choose whether or not to have them and, if they decide to have them, choose the price.
The Minister for Rail could introduce legislation to change this, but I doubt if it will be the government's prioirty to do so.

 

[Death]

Don't know if anybody else has bothered working it out, but with the ALR having remained static for five years this works out an equivalent 2.8% increase year on year if they had done so. This isn't about how they are hiking it now to make money, if they've had done it 2.8% year on year they would have earnt far more. Year 2 up 2.8% on original, Year 2 up 5.7% on original, Year 3 up 8.6% on original, Year 4 up 11.7% on original and Year 5 up 14.8% on original. So now it stands at the 14.8% increase but without them having had the interim revenue rises from Year 1 to 4.

Hmmm...That's actually a very good point there, Mumrar! I didn't have the chance or the mind to figure out the increase itself (I got a C in GCSE Mathmatics - Go figure! ) but when I saw that it was going up by £55 for the 7-day one, I thought that it was simply a case of AToC being greedy ********s and trying to cash in on Lord Adonis' promotion of the Rover! hock:

If that works out to a 2.8% year-on-year increase though, then I suppose that's a "fare" increase on AToCs part (Although that's assuming it's more or less close to the rate of inflation.) and I'll part withdraw my previous comments on AToC deliberateley trying to sting railway enthusiasts, although some of my other views concerning AToC and railway enthusiasts (Such as how we're handled by security personnel) still stand. 8)

Therefore, I do have to ask a simple question: If the cost of ALRs had been increased once per year alongside all other standard fares, would we have even noticed it?

At present legislation dictates that some rail fares are regulated and some are not. Rover tickets are not regulated. This means the train companies can choose whether or not to have them and, if they decide to have them, choose the price.

Hmm...So technically speaking, that means that SWT could sell a 7-day Rover at £450 and VT could sell exactly the same Rover for £275 if they wanted to...Right?
If that's the case, I wonder if it'd be worth some of us setting up a virtual ToC (That could sell tickets and "run" services on existing operators trains using a code-share approach, but wouldn't possess it's own rolling stock etc.) and setting our own prices on ALRs at £25 for the 7-day, £40 for the 14-day, and offering a one-year ALR for £1000? hock:8)

Mod note: All the non-fare related discussion has been moved to a new thread at http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23212. This includes posts and parts of posts (so apologies if your posts have been brutally spliced up - although all the content is still there!).
Please keep non-fares discussion to that thread, but of course feel free to post more fares questions relating to ALRs in here.

Cheers for doing that, Dan! I had thought of shoving my posts into a seperate thread as I could see my ALR plan was driving this thread off-topic, but I thought it'd be a pig for those others also reading this thread for that discussion!

Farewell for now...
>> Death <<

 

[me123]

It's not an unfair increase at 2.8% per annum. But why didn't they do this every year in line with other ticket increases? It just seems slightly odd to me, and it's perfectly timed with free advertising for the ticket. Of course, I could easily be wrong. It oculd just be bad timing from ATOC stimulating the speculation.

That said, the ticket still represents value for money. You could spend the £410 in a day if you wanted to, and a lot of people could easily do so in three days. I think fewer enthusiasts will use the ticket at first, but I don't think over the long term that usage will decline.

 

[dan_atki]

Hmm...So technically speaking, that means that SWT could sell a 7-day Rover at £450 and VT could sell exactly the same Rover for £275 if they wanted to...Right?

No, ALRs are priced by ATOC being a national product, but the likes of the Freedom of Severn & Solent, Freedom of Devon & Cornwall, and Freedom of South West are priced by FGW for instance. Other local rovers/rangers are priced in a similar manner. The West Midlands Day Ranger is even priced by the Local Public Transport Executive!

I remember reading somewhere that operators can choose what tickets they want to sell subject to some very strict conditions. I'm sure someone here knows what document I'm talking about (may have been on the ORR/DfT website). It is generally accepted, however, that you can buy any ticket at any station - this is with the advent of new computer based TIS.

 

[mumrar]

It's not an unfair increase at 2.8% per annum. But why didn't they do this every year in line with other ticket increases? It just seems slightly odd to me, and it's perfectly timed with free advertising for the ticket. Of course, I could easily be wrong. It oculd just be bad timing from ATOC

That it would only barely be noticed is only down to human nature. Are you saying that they missed their chance to increase it? It may appear a rip off, but a £2000 DFS sofa always looks better for £800, but that doesn't mean it's worth £800 let alone £2000. The facts are that average earnings over the last 5 years have increased above 14.8%. I prefer to think of the price as fair now, but a bargain all the other years before!

 

[me123]

Well, rail customers tend to be humans, therefore if human nature dictates that a 15% increase appears more than five annual 2.8% increases, then that's what matters. Most customers won't think in these terms.

I'm not really saying that they "missed their chance". However, if they'd increased it annually, they wouldn't have attracted as much hostility. Look at the opening posts on the forum; amongst the words used are "passenger-hating" (no offence intended to the original poster!). If they were to increase it by 3% each year, they wouldn't have this hostility and they'd have a greater increase to boot!

Also, the "bad timing" refers to the announcement so close to Lord Adonis's promotion of the ticket; it certainly looks like ATOC are capitalising on the free advertising, but that could just be because they're releasing the increase now.

 

[t0ffeeman]

I think ATOC priced products only go up every 5 years. The ALR in its nature cannot be priced by a specific TOC and thus by ATOC. I remember the Network Card being very reasonable at £10 or £12 for many a year then shooting up to £20 and then £20 plus more restrictions. These were all about 5 years apart.

 

[Mojo]

I think ATOC priced products only go up every 5 years. The ALR in its nature cannot be priced by a specific TOC and thus by ATOC. I remember the Network Card being very reasonable at £10 or £12 for many a year then shooting up to £20 and then £20 plus more restrictions. These were all about 5 years apart.

I believe the main national Railcards (Y-P, SNR, etc.) increased in price in January 2008 from £20 to £24, although saying that it had been £20 since 2004.

 

[me123]

The 16-25 railcard is also going up to £26 at the same time as the ALR (I think). That said, there are going to be some changes, including validity on ALL First Class Advance tickets and a £12 minimum fare for ALL tickets before 10am Monday-Friday.

 

[Death]

Hail all!
Following my experiences earlier today when I bought my ALR at Farnborough, I thought I'd best warn people to expect rather long delays in getting it done...Especially if ye are planning to make seat/berth reservations at the same time! hock:

From arrival to departure at the station, my ALR and associated reservations took at least an hour and a half to get done. Although I was fortunate to have a member of staff who knew of the ALR's existance and what one was (It seems that many staff nowadays aren't aware of the ticket at all) it still took him a fair amount of time to look it up in the system and actually issue it.
Longer still, the reservations system only seems to be capable of accepting reservations for one train at once, and seperate queries are required for each service to be used. Even though I had a list of at least fifteen trains that I wanted to reserve on, I eventually decided to go just for the sleepers (As they're mandatory) and the longest planned journey from each day as a compromise. hock:

I'd like to point out here that it wasn't anything to do with the person who served me - Indeed he was doing his level best to serve me as quickly and as best as he could - And I'm very thankful and greatful to him for putting up with the string of reservations and other ALR-related bits 'n' bobs that I needed! 8)
The reason for the slow-down was because of the speed of the ticketing and other systems used - Especially the reservations system - And the apparent fact that booking office staff don't seem to be given comprehensive training in issuing uncommon tickets like ALRs. :?

Simply put: My advice would be to go down when ye have at least an hour available to do it in, and - If ye know the number for thy local station - Give 'em a call about fifteen minutes beforehand to warn them that ye are buying an unusual ticket, and will need a lot of time. I certainly would've done if I could've - Especially given the length of the queue that formed behind me throughout, that eventually required the opening of a second booking office window! hock:

"Ladies and Gentlemen. We regret to announce that the ticket office at Farnborough Main is currently delayed by approximateley thirty-five minutes. This is due to the unexpected purchase of an All Line Rover. South West Trains would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused by this delay." hock::roll:

Farewell...And to anyone else "going out" soon: Happy ALRing!
>> Death <<

 

[jon0844]

The upside is that you now have all train services to yourself for a week or two, as nobody else could get a ticket.

 

[yorkie]

There's an article in the Times about this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6222688.ece

 

[dan_atki]

There's an article in the Times about this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6222688.ece

Knew it wouldn't be long for him to cotton on!

Still, interesting to note is

Those aged under 26 can buy the ticket for £245 but this will increase to £284 from May 17.

which is only strictly true if a railcard is already held... So in fact is £269 to go upto £310 on May 17th, should a railcard also be needed...

 

[furryfeet]

Perchance Mr. Adonis will take the opportunity to turn the tables on ATOC thus...

reduce the prices for the ALR, IF you want the TOCs contracts re-negotiated !

 

[RochdalePioneers]

There's an article in the Times about this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6222688.ece

"The Association of Train Operating Companies said that it was raising prices because its members were concerned that passengers might buy the tickets as a cheaper alternative to peak fares."

Really? thats a shocker - and the likes of NXECgoingout of business thought that they had us over a barrel? I bought an ALR in January and saved my company £175 over two Darlington - Croydon returns. I must be the kind of evil passenger "misusing" the ticket they refer to.

They needn't worry themselves! We're now using video conferencing for an increasing majority of our internal meetings, so instead of £430 or even £275 they'll get nowt.

 

[glynn80]

"The Association of Train Operating Companies said that it was raising prices because its members were concerned that passengers might buy the tickets as a cheaper alternative to peak fares."

Really? thats a shocker - and the likes of NXECgoingout of business thought that they had us over a barrel? I bought an ALR in January and saved my company £175 over two Darlington - Croydon returns. I must be the kind of evil passenger "misusing" the ticket they refer to.

They needn't worry themselves! We're now using video conferencing for an increasing majority of our internal meetings, so instead of £430 or even £275 they'll get nowt.

Well an often quoted possible misuse of the All Line Rover, is the example of one of the most expensive season tickets in the UK from Berwick upon Tweed to London Terminals which in First Class costs £29,776. However 26 First Class 14-day All Line Rovers even at the new price of £990.00 only comes to £25,740- a £4036 saving.

The example also works for Standard Class on the same route with a £1184.00 saving. There are a number of other seasons where this happens across the country.

Now these are huge anomalies considering the All Line Rover allows travel on every line rather than restricted to the routes the season does, so not only do you get a huge saving but extra validity into the bargain.

Bear in mind as well, that the ALR can often be cheaper than Anytime and First Anytime Returns to many destinations as long as you are returning within the ALRs time period.

I can understand ATOCs reasoning (not agree with it), but their price rises do not eliminate many of the anomalies, so perhaps are not fit for this purpose and were probably just a corporate excuse.

 

[jon0844]

You save even more with the rover ticket because you don't need to buy one all the time (if you go on holiday, presumably outside the UK as you'd use your train ticket otherwise!) or you're sick etc. Using a 7 day one may actually pay off in some cases, as you'd have more flexibility to have breaks in usage.

Mind you, someone paying that sort of money wouldn't probably want the hassle and would pay (or have the ticket paid by their employer) the price for a single annual ticket.

In other words, virtually nobody would be buying these tickets as a way of saving money on a standard season as there are probably so few people in those circumstances anyway. It's merely a way of raking in more money. Simple as!

 

[A60K]

I think I might have mentioned this before, but in Germany an All Line Season (the Mobility BahnCard 100) is €3,600 - about £3,200 at typical exchange rates. It includes urban transport networks (tram, bus, underground) as well as all Deutsche Bahn trains.

That's for one year.

Avantix Traveller time again: that's the same price as a Grantham to Melton Mowbray Annual Season!

 

[jon0844]

Ouch!

 

[mathmo]

I think I might have mentioned this before, but in Germany an All Line Season (the Mobility BahnCard 100) is €3,600 - about £3,200 at typical exchange rates. It includes urban transport networks (tram, bus, underground) as well as all Deutsche Bahn trains.

That's for one year.

Avantix Traveller time again: that's the same price as a Grantham to Melton Mowbray Annual Season!

Or, for a journey you can do without changing - it's slightly cheaper than a Reading to London Terminals annual season! That's a journey you can do in a whole 30 minutes!

 

[anthony263]

Maybe someone should start a facebook campaign to get them to stop the price increase or at least reduce it agian.

facebook campaigns have worked in the past with other companies show why should we not give it a try

 

[First class]

Any FIP rates on BahnCard?

 

[jopsuk]

I think I might have mentioned this before, but in Germany an All Line Season (the Mobility BahnCard 100) is €3,600 - about £3,200 at typical exchange rates. It includes urban transport networks (tram, bus, underground) as well as all Deutsche Bahn trains.

That's for one year.

Avantix Traveller time again: that's the same price as a Grantham to Melton Mowbray Annual Season!

Cambridge- London Kings Cross £3,780.00 for 12 months. Peak time trains are currently amonhgest the most overcrowded in the country. Peak time trains (unlike off peak, which are a bit quicker) take about an hour. You may well stand. Lovely value, eh?