"Massive shake up of Sussex train services announced"

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Evvy73

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Not my words - from the Brighton Evening Argus.

ARTICLE LINK

In a nutshell it is about the possible change/new routes that will be available on the "Thameslink" from 2015 (which has been discussed many times before on these boards).

Interestingly, reading the comments beneath the article, the readers sound as though they would prefer the re-introduction of a service that joins up with the WCML through to Manchester (and beyond).

Anyway, thought some people may be interested in the article.
 
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tsr

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This does seem to be largely about generating feedback, although some service plans look to be fairly well-laid-out even now.

To be honest, if people who are genuinely concerned or interested in services had looked hard enough (as I have) there are documents going back a good few months that detail the proposed routes and frequencies (e.g. Three Bridges to Cambridge route details, to take just one example!). I do hope those feeding back have taken the time to read this sort of thing.

Researching the options might mean anyone wanting to comment would by now have a better idea of improvements they could suggest. I'm not in any way suggesting the research hasn't been done, because, of course, this is unlikely to be true in some cases.

That said, the more newspapers and other outlets publicise proposals and opportunities to feed back, the better.

I can see that the local resentment at the cutbacks in long-distance services is building up rather publicly on such news articles' reader comment sections. This is not surprising, as the lack of longer-distance services is a major concern to local residents, workers and investors. We've had plenty of threads on this forum about this sort of thing, so we don't necessarily need to discuss it again, and as usual, I'd rather not start a big argument.
 

jopsuk

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It's an interesting one- on the "North" side of Thameslink, that currently has a very limited set of destinations, the shake up will result in a wider range of through destinations (essentially, Peterborough and Cambridge added to Bedford/intermediate termination points).
 

ushawk

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Taken a while for The Argus to have an article on it. Direct connections to the ECML and Cambridge etc can only do good. Just keep the FGW services and possibly have the Southern MKC service extended back down to Brighton and its all good again.
 

317666

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I'm wondering what rolling stock would be used on Cambridge - Brighton services for instance. It's a fair way and I can't imagine stock suitable for inner-London services on the Sutton Loop would also be suitable for journeys of about 100 miles. Perhaps the Desiro City will come in two variants, much like the 319/3s don't have first class and the 319/4s do. Or have I missed something?
 

tsr

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All trains that pass through the Blackfriars - St Pancras section will be Desiros regardless of their origin and destination.
All I can say is... they'd jolly well better have good seats (I don't like many of the seating options fitted to Desiros at present, I have to say), decent ride quality (likely) and a good catering option (hmmm)!

Actually, that's nowhere near all I can say... ;)
 

ashworth

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I visited Littlehampton last week as part of a day out using a Southern Downlander Ticket - great value.
I was quite surprised that all London to Littlehampton services run via Hove and none are routed via the Arun Valley.
On the return journey I had a great journey back to London changing at Ford and Horsham going via Dorking, Epsom and Sutton. I thought there was some lovely downland scenery via this route.

Am I correct in the fact that up until the mid 1970's many services from the south coast to London Victoria were routed that way. I am sure I can remember travelling, as a child, on a direct Portsmouth Harbour to Victoria service via Sutton.

Having travelled via that route last week I did wonder why one relatively fast train an hour from the south coast didn't still use that route. I can see the importance of serving Gatwick Airport but I would think that there could be quite a market for journeys from Sutton, Epsom, Dorking etc to and from the south coast.
Just as a fantasy, as part of this changes to Sussex train routes, I would like to suggest the following hourly service could be introduced calling only at the following stations;
London Victoria - Clapham Junction - Sutton - Epsom - Leatherhead - Dorking - Horsham then running on to either Littlehampton or Bognor perhaps calling at some stations down the Arun valley. In a addition to creating better journey opportunities from Sutton, Epsom, Leatherhead and Dorking to the south coast it would also provide these stations with an hourly fast service to London.
 

tsr

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I visited Littlehampton last week as part of a day out using a Southern Downlander Ticket - great value.
I was quite surprised that all London to Littlehampton services run via Hove and none are routed via the Arun Valley.
On the return journey I had a great journey back to London changing at Ford and Horsham going via Dorking, Epsom and Sutton. I thought there was some lovely downland scenery via this route.

Am I correct in the fact that up until the mid 1970's many services from the south coast to London Victoria were routed that way. I am sure I can remember travelling, as a child, on a direct Portsmouth Harbour to Victoria service via Sutton.

Having travelled via that route last week I did wonder why one relatively fast train an hour from the south coast didn't still use that route. I can see the importance of serving Gatwick Airport but I would think that there could be quite a market for journeys from Sutton, Epsom, Dorking etc to and from the south coast.
Just as a fantasy, as part of this changes to Sussex train routes, I would like to suggest the following hourly service could be introduced calling only at the following stations;
London Victoria - Clapham Junction - Sutton - Epsom - Leatherhead - Dorking - Horsham then running on to either Littlehampton or Bognor perhaps calling at some stations down the Arun valley. In a addition to creating better journey opportunities from Sutton, Epsom, Leatherhead and Dorking to the south coast it would also provide these stations with an hourly fast service to London.
In the long term, moving Dorking (Main) so that it is directly besides (and linked to) Dorking Deepdene would provide a very useful interchange that could boost traffic from destinations in the North Downs area.

I reckon your proposal or a similar idea could be really useful, as the Dorking-Horsham stretch is very much underused. I think a problem with pathing could rear its ugly head near London, though!
 

Class377/5

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I'm wondering what rolling stock would be used on Cambridge - Brighton services for instance. It's a fair way and I can't imagine stock suitable for inner-London services on the Sutton Loop would also be suitable for journeys of about 100 miles. Perhaps the Desiro City will come in two variants, much like the 319/3s don't have first class and the 319/4s do. Or have I missed something?
The Desiro Cities will come in two versions. 8 cars and 12 car but similar layout. Both with first class. Cambridge and Brighton will both see the 12 car version. However no Cambridge to Brighton service is proposed. Only services Brighton will see through the Thameslink Core will be 4tph to Bedford like now. the Cambridge will either be Three Bridges or Horsham distance.
 

David10

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Am I correct in the fact that up until the mid 1970's many services from the south coast to London Victoria were routed that way. I am sure I can remember travelling, as a child, on a direct Portsmouth Harbour to Victoria service via Sutton.

Having travelled via that route last week I did wonder why one relatively fast train an hour from the south coast didn't still use that route. I can see the importance of serving Gatwick Airport but I would think that there could be quite a market for journeys from Sutton, Epsom, Dorking etc to and from the south coast.
I believe that some south coast services did travel via Sutton in the slam door era. But with the increasing importance of Gatwick not to mention that it is a fair bit quicker they now goes this way. The junctions at Streatham and Sutton are more congested than then with Thameslink services now running and I think they would need to run on the slows all the way from Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When the shed at West Worthing was demolished a few years ago but the connections to the West Coastway line left intact, it was suggested these would be used for Thameslink services.
 

Rational Plan

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I can remember a few years there were proposals to speed up the running of the Arun valley line as alternative to the main line. I wonder if they will ever resurface.
 

swt_passenger

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The Desiro Cities will come in two versions. 8 cars and 12 car but similar layout. Both with first class.
The published specs on DfT's website definitely did list three versions, there was also an 8 car with standard class only for the sortest inner area routes.

Needless to say that might have changed - but of course as far as the build is concerened it's likely the only alterations needed to remove first class would be to not fit the relevant labels and anti-maccassars. That's how they do it in 377s after all...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can remember a few years there were proposals to speed up the running of the Arun valley line as alternative to the main line. I wonder if they will ever resurface.
Speeding up already did resurface. It is listed under 'Journey Time Improvement Fund' in the NR CP5 proposals. Resignalling and associated headway improvements are in the current plans for CP4.
 
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tsr

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I believe that some south coast services did travel via Sutton in the slam door era. But with the increasing importance of Gatwick not to mention that it is a fair bit quicker they now goes this way.
Plenty of services omit calls at Gatwick, despite it being an important station (but then again they usually call at several other destinations on the Brighton Mainline anyway)!
 

cle

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The published specs on DfT's website definitely did list three versions, there was also an 8 car with standard class only for the sortest inner area routes.

Needless to say that might have changed - but of course as far as the build is concerened it's likely the only alterations needed to remove first class would be to not fit the relevant labels and anti-maccassars. That's how they do it in 377s after all...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Speeding up already did resurface. It is listed under 'Journey Time Improvement Fund' in the NR CP5 proposals. Resignalling and associated headway improvements are in the current plans for CP4.
Is there a detailed plan of the effects of these improvements?
Any improvements for the line between Sutton and Horsham?


Loads of trains already skip Gatwick - the BML is pretty skip stop to ensure quicker journeys, and some without air passengers.

For example, Brighton expresses but also many other trains will go East Croydon and then fast to Three Bridges or Haywards Heath - sometimes with Horley sneaking in there too.

No trains seem to run fast from Hove to East Croydon though, which I'm sure would be popular.
 

LE Greys

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All I can say is... they'd jolly well better have good seats (I don't like many of the seating options fitted to Desiros at present, I have to say), decent ride quality (likely) and a good catering option (hmmm)!

Actually, that's nowhere near all I can say... ;)
I've been saying something similar. 365s for Desiro Cities doesn't sound like a very good trade to me.

<EDIT> If the post below is anything to go by, then we don't need to worry too much.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Desiro Cities will come in two versions. 8 cars and 12 car but similar layout. Both with first class. Cambridge and Brighton will both see the 12 car version. However no Cambridge to Brighton service is proposed. Only services Brighton will see through the Thameslink Core will be 4tph to Bedford like now. the Cambridge will either be Three Bridges or Horsham distance.
That doesn't sound especially good. Thameslink 2000 was 'sold' to the people of Cambridge, Peterborough, Stevenage, Hitchin, etc as a means to get to Brighton and Gatwick without having to change trains. I know it's moved on a bit since then, but surely it would be better to trade in some of the Bedford-Brightons for some of the other destinations.

Bedford-Brighton, 2tph; Peterborough-Brighton, 1tph; Cambridge-Brighton, 1tph; Bedford-Somewhere Else, 2tph; Peterborough-Somewhere Else, 1tph; Cambridge-Somewhere Else, 1tph; fill in the rest with Luton or Welwyn to somewhere else.
 
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swt_passenger

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Is there a detailed plan of the effects of these improvements?
Nothing at all in the CP5 lists. Just the words 'Arun Valley route' in the list of schemes under the heading.

There may be something in the individual route plan if you were to look it up.
 

arty762

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as a child growing up in Dorking in the 70,s i am sure we had hourly services to both Littlehamptom and Bognor Regis via Horsham , we still have the Horsham connection , but no service on Sundays.
 

OliverS

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That doesn't sound especially good. Thameslink 2000 was 'sold' to the people of Cambridge, Peterborough, Stevenage, Hitchin, etc as a means to get to Brighton and Gatwick without having to change trains. I know it's moved on a bit since then, but surely it would be better to trade in some of the Bedford-Brightons for some of the other destinations.

A Horsham or Three Bridges train will almost certainly stop at Gatwick so those stations will have a no change option to there. Brighton is only one change away, from the same platform if you choose your station carefully. However I'm not sure whether the Horsham/Three Bridges trains will be slow from East Croydon so you might be better off changing for Gatwick in the core anyway.
 
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