Master Cutler routing

[driverd]

Hi all,

Just been having a quick peruse of the 2001 national rail timetable, and I noted the 07.27 Master Cutler service from Sheffield to London overtakes the 07.19 departure. There's no clear long dwells in the 07.19 departure, so I'm just wondering if the 07.27 master cutler was routed via Erewash/Toton depot and on toward Leicester?

If not, where did it overtake?

 

[edwin_m]

It certainly took that route around that time - can't swear to the exact year.

 

[jfollows]

2001-05 WTT CJ | Network Rail Corporate Archive

Industry published working timetable, May 2001

history.networkrail.co.uk

Yes,1B00 went direct via Erewash and passed Toton Centre at 08/01 and bypassed Nottingham.
1C13 07:19 Sheffield to Saint Pancras went via Derby and passed Trent Junction 08/06, just after 1B00 at 08/02.5

 

[driverd]

Thanks both for your replies!

I had no idea network rail had a historic wtt archive - what an excellent resource, I'll have to take a more thorough look.

 

[jfollows]

I had no idea network rail had a historic wtt archive - what an excellent resource, I'll have to take a more thorough look.

Yes, it's good, it was brought to my attention on here a few weeks ago.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks both for your replies!

I had no idea network rail had a historic wtt archive - what an excellent resource, I'll have to take a more thorough look.

Neither did I.

 

[jfollows]

Neither did I.

I have posted links to it several times over the past couple of months, where it's been relevant, but of course you'd only have seen these if the subject of the thread was of interest to you in the first place, and I'll be the first to admit that there are many threads I don't read myself!

 

[Western Sunset]

The Master Cutler must've been one of the most re-routed named trains in Britain. First it ran From Sheff Vic via the GC to Marylebone. Then Sheff Vic to KX via Reford and the GN. Then diverted to start at Sheff Mid, though still to KX. Eventually to St Pan via the Midland line; some years routed via Derby, sometimes via the Erewash Valley.

 

[Western Sunset]

For those who wonder at the nomenclature of the WTTs:
C = Crewe
Y = York
L = Liverpool Street
P = Paddington
G = Glasgow
W = Waterloo

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Master Cutler must've been one of the most re-routed named trains in Britain. First it ran From Sheff Vic via the GC to Marylebone. Then Sheff Vic to KX via Reford and the GN. Then diverted to start at Sheff Mid, though still to KX. Eventually to St Pan via the Midland line; some years routed via Derby, sometimes via the Erewash Valley.

You've got me on that one. What years was that? Presumably about 1965-6-7?

IIRC, it was diverted to St Pancras from... gosh, was it 66 or 67? Or 68?

I do remember that in the early days it was a Tinsley 47 on the up train, rather than a 45. I never seemed to see the down working.

On the MML, the up was originally routed via Derby, then later via the Erewash (but not Nottingham) in, I think, summer 1970. But possibly 71.

Good point about it being "one of the most re-routed named trains in Britain" though. Trivia thread?

 

[Magdalia]

The Master Cutler was originally a Great Central train running from/to Sheffield Victoria to/from Marylebone.

It ran as a Pullman only service between Sheffield Victoria and Kings Cross from September 1958 until October 1965. At first it was a flagship service of the Modernisation Plan, hauled by a Hornsey/Finsbury Park EE Type 4 until September 1961. Brush Type 2s, EE Type 3s and Brush Type 4s were all used between September 1961 and October 1965, plus all three of the Type 4 prototypes.

From October 1965 until October 1968 it ran between Sheffield Midland and Kings Cross, using the newly opened Nunnery curve, and still Pullman only. DP2 worked at Sheffield Midland at the start of this period, but otherwise it was usually Brush Type 4 hauled. One exception is a pair of spruced up blue Brush Type 2s which has to be after September 1967.

The Master Cutler started to use St Pancras from October 1968. Pullman cars ceased at this point. Until 1973 the only intermediate stop was Leicester London Road.

 

[Taunton]

Gerry Fiennes was involved in the Pullman relaunch of the Master Cutler, and describes it in one of his books. There was a considerable effort made by the commercial department to promote it, which I bet he galvanised himself. One of his initiatives was the personal secretaries (all women in those times) of the chairmen (all men, likewise) of the many mainstream Sheffield steel companies were all invited on a pre-launch trip on it, co-ordinated by Fiennes' own long serving secretary. But when shortly after the launch and all the advertising expense they asked passengers how they knew of it, the majority replied 'a friend told me'.

Was it DP2, or was it the white D0260 Lion that ran as a prototype on the train? I seem to recollect photos of the latter coming round the incredibly sharp connecting curve at Retford with it.

 

[Western Sunset]

I remember seeing the Pullman cars at Sheff Mid after arriving in plat 8 (by the wall) behind a Brush Type 4.

 

[Magdalia]

Was it DP2, or was it the white D0260 Lion that ran as a prototype on the train? I seem to recollect photos of the latter coming round the incredibly sharp connecting curve at Retford with it.

All 3 of the prototypes worked the Master Cutler, as indicated in my previous contribution.

D0280 worked most days in summer 1962 and there is a well known picture of it on the curve at Retford working the 1120 from Kings Cross Sheffield Pullman.

 

[2192]

The Master Cutler must've been one of the most re-routed named trains in Britain. First it ran From Sheff Vic via the GC to Marylebone. Then Sheff Vic to KX via Reford and the GN. Then diverted to start at Sheff Mid, though still to KX. Eventually to St Pan via the Midland line; some years routed via Derby, sometimes via the Erewash Valley.

What route did it use from Sheffield Midland to Kings Cross? North from Sheffield to pick up the GC route to Retford, or Midland to Nottingham then GN to Grantham, or some other?

 

[Harvester]

What route did it use from Sheffield Midland to Kings Cross? North from Sheffield to pick up the GC route to Retford, or Midland to Nottingham then GN to Grantham, or some other?

Via Retford to Kings Cross. No services ran into Kings Cross direct from Nottingham.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It ran as a Pullman only service between Sheffield Victoria and Kings Cross from September 1958 until October 1965. At first it was a flagship service of the Modernisation Plan, hauled by a Hornsey/Finsbury Park EE Type 4 until September 1961. Brush Type 2s, EE Type 3s and Brush Type 4s were all used between September 1961 and October 1965, plus all three of the Type 4 prototypes.

Yes, I think I saw all these traction variations on the ECML - maybe not the EE 4s. For awhile, it seemed to be in the hands of Tinsley's newish D58xx Brush 2s, then Cl 37s. I certainly saw it with D0280 Falcon. The difference in performances must have been huge between the Cl 31 and the prototypes and Cl 47s.

From October 1965 until October 1968 it ran between Sheffield Midland and Kings Cross, using the newly opened Nunnery curve, and still Pullman only. DP2 worked at Sheffield Midland at the start of this period, but otherwise it was usually Brush Type 4 hauled. One exception is a pair of spruced up blue Brush Type 2s which has to be after September 1967.

The 2 x Cl 31s was one off, or for a period? Never saw those.

The Master Cutler started to use St Pancras from October 1968. Pullman cars ceased at this point. Until 1973 the only intermediate stop was Leicester London Road.

Begs the question: why did they drop the Pullmans? Had they kept them, it would have made the train a clear flagship on the MML. Perhaps they weighed heavier than the Mk1s, and that would have hit the timings, which would have been slower than via the ECML?

 

[Western Sunset]

If I recall, there was a Brush Type 2 with an uprated engine that was used on it for a while.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes, I think I saw all these traction variations on the ECML - maybe not the EE 4s. For awhile, it seemed to be in the hands of Tinsley's newish D58xx Brush 2s

There's a short period, in winter 1961-62, between the EE T4s and D0280, when Brush Type 2s were used. The locos involved had headboard brackets fitted. These included 1600hp locos D5655-57 and the 2000hp D5835, but there's very little detail that gives loco numbers and dates. Although D5835 had a headboard bracket I've yet to find a definite date of it working the Master Cutler.

The 2 x Cl 31s was one off, or for a period? Never saw those.

I think it was a one-off, possibly associated with conveying royalty. I mentioned it in the hope that it might jog someone's memory!

 

[Taunton]

Begs the question: why did they drop the Pullmans? Had they kept them, it would have made the train a clear flagship on the MML. Perhaps they weighed heavier than the Mk1s, and that would have hit the timings, which would have been slower than via the ECML?

I believe there were staff issues with Pullmans, which although later fully owned by the BR board was a separate company with separate employees, and this caused various discussion points with other BR catering staff. Were Pullman employees in a different union?

 

[Ken H]

Always seemed odd to me Sheffield was in the Eastern Region when it was really Midland. Must have complicated things for Sheffield - London trains

 

[Revaulx]

Not the Master Cutler, but I remember being aged about 9 and returning to Manchester from Cambridge; a journey that my father undertook once a year or so.

When we got to Sheffield we had to change stations, which involved getting a taxi. This provoked a fusillade of swearing from my father who was used to arriving at and departing from Victoria. So probably late 66 or early 67.

 

[Helvellyn]

Begs the question: why did they drop the Pullmans? Had they kept them, it would have made the train a clear flagship on the MML. Perhaps they weighed heavier than the Mk1s, and that would have hit the timings, which would have been slower than via the ECML?

When did the Midland Pullman to Manchester Central stop running? The Blue Pullman stock might have been good for the Master Cutler, unless ot had already gone to the WR by the time the service switched from being ER operated to MR operated. Part of the issue might have been the fact the only Pullman stock the MR had was the Mark 2s on the WCML.

 

[jfollows]

When did the Midland Pullman to Manchester Central stop running?

18 April 1966 is the start date of the working timetable which does not include it. So it stopped running once the new WCML electrification timetable started.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

18 April 1966 is the start date of the working timetable which does not include it. So it stopped running once the new WCML electrification timetable started.

That's narrowed it down. Believe the last Midland Pullman into Manchester Central may actually have run just a few days earlier, on Friday 15th April 1966.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There's a short period, in winter 1961-62, between the EE T4s and D0280, when Brush Type 2s were used. The locos involved had headboard brackets fitted. These included 1600hp locos D5655-57 and the 2000hp D5835, but there's very little detail that gives loco numbers and dates. Although D5835 had a headboard bracket I've yet to find a definite date of it working the Master Cutler.

D5835 certainly rings a bell. I probably saw Cl 40s on the train too, just they didn't stand out at the time.

When did the Midland Pullman to Manchester Central stop running? The Blue Pullman stock might have been good for the Master Cutler, unless ot had already gone to the WR by the time the service switched from being ER operated to MR operated. Part of the issue might have been the fact the only Pullman stock the MR had was the Mark 2s on the WCML.

I posited this question on a news group a decade back or more, but as far as I remember someone said the Sheffield economy was not doing well at the time and wouldn't support a Pullman. Whether true or not, I think the economics of the Midland Pullman must have been extremely weak all along. Unlike the WR, where you needed all three units every day - and if one failed, you had a loco-hauled train to substitute - the LM had one spare unit hanging around every day.

 

[Western Sunset]

The Blue Pullman was, indeed, trialled over part of the ECML, but the ER didn't want it.

 

[Helvellyn]

Probably helps explain it, and I guess once transferred from the ER the issue of a lack of suitable coaching stock prevented a mixed Pullman/ordinary stock service (e.g. like the Liverpool Pullman).

 

[Western Sunset]

To add to the variety in steam days, the up Cutler on the GC to Marylebone was routed via Aylesbury, whilst the down went via Princes Risborough.

When transferred to the Midland route to St Pan (when running via Derby), though it didn't call there it was routed through the station rather than via Chaddesden - even though that line as a through route didn't close until May 1969.

So I make it six routes:
1. GC via Aylesbury
2. GC via Princes Risborough
3. GN via Retford (ex Sheff Vic)
4. GN via Retford (ex Sheff Mid)
5. Mid via Derby
6. Mid via Erewash Valley

 

[70014IronDuke]

To add to the variety in steam days, the up Cutler on the GC to Marylebone was routed via Aylesbury, whilst the down went via Princes Risborough.

When transferred to the Midland route to St Pan (when running via Derby), though it didn't call there it was routed through the station rather than via Chaddesden - even though that line as a through route didn't close until May 1969.

Was the Chad route kept for passenger working until the end? I presume it was taken out with the implementation of the Derby powerbox?

By late 69 it didn't run through the station - it went by the avoiding lines between the station and the loco works - I used to see it quite often at about 07.40 in the mornings.