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Master Cutler routing

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davidknibb

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Well I could only have been 6 or 7 at the time - and didn't know about A class pacifics then I'm afraid. Neither do I know what the problem was - but it was serious since after a good while another loco - no idea what - came to rescue it - and this just added to the excitement. No doubt it set off from Neasden (14D) - and after the tracks were cleared of LT electric trains moved North to the rescue. I do recall that it must have been over the school summer holidays - and I waited in vain for a repeat performance over the next few weeks. Funny how these incidents stick in the mind - whereas countless others are totally forgotten.
 
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Harvester

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South bound must have meant around 09.30 - 10.00 in the morning? Would have been A3-hauled I should guess?
Could have been a V2, depending on the date. The A3s had migrated back to the ECML by September 1957, and V2s were transferred to the GC as replacements. They would have worked the MC during it’s final year on the route.
 

70014IronDuke

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Could have been a V2, depending on the date. The A3s had migrated back to the ECML by September 1957, and V2s were transferred to the GC as replacements. They would have worked the MC during it’s final year on the route.
Interesting, I hadn't logged that. Was the ER already beginning to run down the line, one wonders? Although perhaps the schedules were such that a V2 could keep to time with the same loads as an A3.
 

didcotdean

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The advert promoting the introduction of the diesel Pullman via Retford attached.
 

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Magdalia

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South bound must have meant around 09.30 - 10.00 in the morning? Would have been A3-hauled I should guess? Must have been something serious to stop the train for such a long time.
Much later. In summer 1958 the up Master Cutler was 9.46am at Rugby and 11.27am arrival at Marylebone.

In contrast the diesel hauled Master Cutler arrived Kings Cross at 10.5am, though with a slightly earlier start from Sheffield.

I don't think mum had a kitchen clock, but relied on the north bound SY - which passed by at about 17.15 - as a signal to start cooking evening meal for dad when he got home from work.
The down South Yorkshireman departed Marylebone at 4.50pm in summer 1958.

Could have been a V2, depending on the date. The A3s had migrated back to the ECML by September 1957, and V2s were transferred to the GC as replacements. They would have worked the MC during it’s final year on the route.
The GC A3s were based at Leicester GC shed, which had 60049 and 60102/104/106/107/111 until September 1957, according to BR Database. The ER would have moved them away before early 1958 when Leicester GC shed transferred to the LMR.

In GC days did the Master Cutler change engines at Leicester?
 
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Harvester

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The GC A3s were based at Leicester GC shed, which had 60049 and 60102/104/106/107/111 until September 1957, according to BR Database. The ER would have moved them away before early 1958 when Leicester GC shed transferred to the LMR.

In GC days did the Master Cutler change engines at Leicester?
The Eastern Region seemed keen to recall the A3s before the LMR took over the route. Probably didn’t want to risk losing them, as approval to fit the Kylchap exhaust system to the Gresley Pacifics had by then been given.

IIRC the A3s worked as far as Nottingham Victoria. Photos of the MC north of Nottingham in the fifties usually show a B1 in charge.
 

Western Sunset

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I'm sure the ER were miffed when a batch of brand-new 9Fs for the Annesley - Woodford "runners" were transferred to the LMR when they took over the route. Regarding the A3s, they did run to Man London Road (via Woodhead), though after electrification obviously didn't venture beyond Sheff Vic.
 

70014IronDuke

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Much later. In summer 1958 the up Master Cutler was 9.46am at Rugby and 11.27am arrival at Marylebone.

In contrast the diesel hauled Master Cutler arrived Kings Cross at 10.5am, though with a slightly earlier start from Sheffield.
Gosh, with no attempt to get the boss to London for a 10.00 meeting in steam days, a nice lunch in the club would be the first time any business was done, I presume!
 

30907

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Gosh, with no attempt to get the boss to London for a 10.00 meeting in steam days, a nice lunch in the club would be the first time any business was done, I presume!
Correct. 10.00 arrivals (not meetings!) in London were a distinct novelty in the early Inter City era.
 

Magdalia

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Gosh, with no attempt to get the boss to London for a 10.00 meeting in steam days, a nice lunch in the club would be the first time any business was done, I presume!
The 1958 Master Cutler to Kings Cross, with its 10.5am arrival, was a very radical concept at the time, hence the radical promotion described here:

Gerry Fiennes was involved in the Pullman relaunch of the Master Cutler, and describes it in one of his books. There was a considerable effort made by the commercial department to promote it, which I bet he galvanised himself. One of his initiatives was the personal secretaries (all women in those times) of the chairmen (all men, likewise) of the many mainstream Sheffield steel companies were all invited on a pre-launch trip on it, co-ordinated by Fiennes' own long serving secretary. But when shortly after the launch and all the advertising expense they asked passengers how they knew of it, the majority replied 'a friend told me'.

The Master Cutler was the first daytime long distance arrival at Kings Cross. In contrast, the West Riding, which was the predecessor of the Leeds and Bradford Executives, arrived at 11.2 am. This was one of the first trains to benefit from Deltic haulage, starting in September 1961. The train started to run non-stop from Wakefield arriving Kings Cross at 10.30 am.

The Master Cutler was also the pioneer of lightweight fast business trains. The Leeds and Bradford portions of the West Riding waited until 1966 to be split into the 2 lightweight trains that later became the Leeds and Bradford Executives. Then the Leeds train started at 0725 and ran non-stop, following the Master Cutler from Retford.
 

Western Sunset

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KX arrivals between 0800 and 1200, starting from places >100 miles away from London in May 1961; all seven of 'em:

0955 Grantham (Restaurant)
1015 Sheff Vic (Pullman) "The Master Cutler"
1048 Grimsby (Buffet)
1100 Grantham (No catering)
1115 Bradford & Leeds (Restaurant) "The West Riding"
1144 York (Buffet)
1154 Bradford & Leeds (Restaurant)
 

Taunton

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The 1958 Master Cutler to Kings Cross, with its 10.5am arrival, was a very radical concept at the time, hence the radical promotion described here:



The Master Cutler was the first daytime long distance arrival at Kings Cross. In contrast, the West Riding, which was the predecessor of the Leeds and Bradford Executives, arrived at 11.2 am. This was one of the first trains to benefit from Deltic haulage, starting in September 1961. The train started to run non-stop from Wakefield arriving Kings Cross at 10.30 am.

The Master Cutler was also the pioneer of lightweight fast business trains. The Leeds and Bradford portions of the West Riding waited until 1966 to be split into the 2 lightweight trains that later became the Leeds and Bradford Executives. Then the Leeds train started at 0725 and ran non-stop, following the Master Cutler from Retford.
It's a good point. Bristol is obviously nearer London, and well within range of day return trips, but in the 1950s the two prestige trains, the "Bristolian" and the "Merchant Venturer" both departed in the afternoon. The 07.45 in the morning arrived at 10.00, but with only two stops, at Bath and Chippenham, took fully 30 minutes longer than the nonstop Bristolian, and even so was probably far more of a challenge for the Castle crew. Experience was it was a notably heavy and long train, far more deserving of the one day train on the line scheduled for King haulage than the lightweight latter. I recall that morning train being packed just from Bristol, with several hundred passengers crowding the Up Main platform. What chance getting a seat at Chippenham?

The "Cutler" probably alerted someone at BR HQ, within a year or so the Blue Pullmans had been brought into service, with business time runs from Manchester, Birmingham, Cardiff - and Bristol. Of course, their key problem then was what to do with them in the middle of the day.
 

Western Sunset

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As a comparison to KX, these are the comparative Padd arrivals, using the same criteria:

0935 Wolves (Pullman) "The Birmingham Pullman"
0935 Bristol (Pullman) "The Bristol Pullman"
1007 WSM (Restaurant)
1010 Wolves (Restaurant)
1012 Hereford (Restaurant)
1030 Cheltenham (Miniature buffet)
1035 Cheltenham (Restaurant) "Cheltenham Spa Express"
1040 [WFO] Fishguard (Restaurant)
1055 Swansea (Restaurant) "Capitals United Express"
1108 WSM (Restaurant)
1110 Shrewsbury (Restaurant)
1115 Frome (No catering)
1125 Hereford & Kidderminster (Restaurant) "The Cathedrals Express"
1145 Fishguard [TThO] / Cardiff (MWFO]
1150 Swansea (Restaurant)
 

70014IronDuke

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All fascinating stuff indeed - I have some questions for @Western Sunset !

But, I wonder - could someone start a new thread, perhaps starting with Post 68 here, as the subject matter has become so much broader than the original GC-centric OP's post (fascinating as that was in itself), but I think a new title would attract more readers.

My suggestion for a title: "Inter-City history - Getting to the 10.00 am business meeting in London - or not" - but please make a better choice if you can think of one.

I would do it myself, but last time I tried something like this I felt I botched it - I suspect I missed a few tricks.
 

Western Sunset

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I was thinking we'd veered a little off-piste. Actually, I did start researching that very thing a few years ago, but got side-tracked into delving into the LMS Midland Division for 1945 instead...

And here's St Pancras - I've included Leicester, even though it's just less than 100 miles (99) from London:

0915 Edinburgh [via Nottm & Melton line] (No catering)
0926 Nottm [via L'ter) (Restaurant)
0955 L'ter (No catering)
1021 Sheff Mid [via Derby & L'ter] (Restaurant)
1030 Nottm [via Melton line] (Restaurant) "The Robin Hood"
1100 Man Cent [via Chadd Sdgs] (Pullman) "The Midland Pullman"

1110 Nottm [via Melton line] (No catering)
1124 Man Cent [via Derby & L'ter] (Buffet)
1145 Sheff Mid [via Erewash Valley & L'ter] (No catering)

Those in bold would've been the main morning business trains.
 
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70014IronDuke

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I was thinking we'd veered a little off-piste. Actually, I did start researching that very thing a few years ago, but got side-tracked into delving into the LMS Midland Division for 1945 instead...

And here's St Pancras - I've included Leicester, even though it's just less than 100 miles (99) from London:

0915 Edinburgh [via Nottm & Melton line] (No catering)
0926 Nottm [via L'ter) (Restaurant)
0955 L'ter (No catering)
1021 Sheff Mid [via Derby & L'ter] (Restaurant)
1030 Nottm [via Melton line] (Restaurant) "The Robin Hood"
1100 Man Cent [via Chadd Sdgs] (Pullman) "The Midland Pullman"

1110 Nottm [via Melton line] (No catering)
1124 Man Cent [via Derby & L'ter] (Buffet)
1145 Sheff Mid [via Erewash Valley & L'ter] (No catering)

Those in bold would've been the main morning business trains.
I've transferred this and other relevant posts in this thread to the new, more general thread here:


But don't let this stop discussion about the Master Cutler!
 
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