Master Cutler routing

Western Sunset

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I didn't realise that the goods lines alongside Derby station were passenger rated, even after introduction of power signalling in June/July 1969. I'd certainly like to see some photo evidence of passenger trains working over it.
 
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70014IronDuke

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The Blue Pullman was, indeed, trialled over part of the ECML, but the ER didn't want it.

Ah, yes. I'd forgotten about that. But as a 90 mph max speed, by then I suspect they'd have seen it as a bit of a retrograde step. And travelling in the power cars must have been noisy - hardly a first class experience.

But was it trialled on the ER with the Master Cutler in mind, or perhaps for some other working, eg Yorkshire Pullman?

But what I meant by my original question (umpteen years ago) was transfer it across for a Sheffiled Pullman.
EDIT on the Midland, to St Pancras. (It must be the heat, my brain is slowing down.)

In truth, when I asked the question, I'd forgotten that the Cutler was still under ER control, routed via Retford and still a Pullman.
 
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Harvester

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Although D5835 had a headboard bracket I've yet to find a definite date of it working the Master Cutler.
Not really surprised, as it was only working on the ECML from April 1962 (when new) until September 1962, before being transferred to Stratford. For two of those months it was at Finsbury Park often on Kings Cross-Hull workings.
 

Taunton

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I suspect there was a bit of a regional turf war over London services to Sheffield, which was (just) into the Eastern Region, but the St Pancras line was a London Midland operation. When originally introduced in the 1950s the boundaries were different, and the GC line right through to Marylebone was Eastern Region. They probably wanted to keep the service wholly theirs when this too was transferred geographically to the LMR, hence the reroute via Retford, which was not an established express direction.
 

jfollows

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The Master Cutler was originally a Great Central train running from/to Sheffield Victoria to/from Marylebone.

It ran as a Pullman only service between Sheffield Victoria and Kings Cross from September 1958 until October 1965. At first it was a flagship service of the Modernisation Plan, hauled by a Hornsey/Finsbury Park EE Type 4 until September 1961. Brush Type 2s, EE Type 3s and Brush Type 4s were all used between September 1961 and October 1965, plus all three of the Type 4 prototypes.
I attach a working timetable combination page from 1960/61 showing the 07:20 Sheffield Victoria to King's Cross.
EDIT
HC - Horseboxes, carriage trucks and additional non-passenger carrying vehicles are not conveyed by this train, except on the authority of the Line Traffic Manager.
(spade) - 4-wheeled vehicles with a wheelbase of less than 15 ft. must not be conveyed on this train.
 

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Western Sunset

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I'm still dubious that the Cutler actually passed Derby on the goods lines. It would've had to come off the main at either Little Eaton Jn or St Mary's Jn and trundle along the up goods, then round the connecting line at London Road Jn. Can't see it myself to be honest.
 

Magdalia

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Not really surprised, as it was only working on the ECML from April 1962 (when new) until September 1962, before being transferred to Stratford. For two of those months it was at Finsbury Park often on Kings Cross-Hull workings.
Yes, D5835 only had a little window of opportunity to work the Master Cutler, from mid July until the September timetable change, when Darnall's new EE Type 3s took over.

But I doubt the Falcon worked every day in that July-September 1962 period so the search goes on!

I suspect there was a bit of a regional turf war over London services to Sheffield, which was (just) into the Eastern Region, but the St Pancras line was a London Midland operation. When originally introduced in the 1950s the boundaries were different, and the GC line right through to Marylebone was Eastern Region. They probably wanted to keep the service wholly theirs when this too was transferred geographically to the LMR, hence the reroute via Retford, which was not an established express direction.
The big regional carve up was early in 1958 when most of the GC went to the LMR and the Midland lines around Sheffield went to the ER. I get the impression that the "Master Cutler" was just about the only bit of the GC operation that the ER wanted to keep.
 

70014IronDuke

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I'm still dubious that the Cutler actually passed Derby on the goods lines. It would've had to come off the main at either Little Eaton Jn or St Mary's Jn and trundle along the up goods, then round the connecting line at London Road Jn. Can't see it myself to be honest.
Ah, I've only just seen this.

Well, maybe I've misremembered it. Apologies if so. I saw it a number of times in Sept - Dec 1969, and my memory is that it was quite away over the bridge, when it passed beneath. What would be the furthest across, the old platform 6 I suppose (it my memory is correct, that was the most easterly platform, right?).
 

jfollows

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Layout of Derby in 1990 (London Midland Region Track Diagrams, Quail Map Company, October 1990) attached; I don't know how much had changed since the 1969 resignalling. Prior to that, there was an avoiding line which the Blue Pullman used, north via Chaddesden South Junction, past Chaddesden Sidings, whence to Duffield [Derby South Junction to Derby North Junction], and the route had an option to run into Derby from the north end as well by turning left instead of right [Derby South Junction to Derby Junction], and I've got a 1968 working timetable showing passenger trains using primarily the latter route back to the station which allows trains to run Nottingham-Tamworth without reversing. I don't have a timetable showing the Master Cutler passing Derby without stopping.
Others have already said that the avoiding line via Chaddesden was removed as part of the 1969 resignalling.
 

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MontyP

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Hi all,

Just been having a quick peruse of the 2001 national rail timetable, and I noted the 07.27 Master Cutler service from Sheffield to London overtakes the 07.19 departure. There's no clear long dwells in the 07.19 departure, so I'm just wondering if the 07.27 master cutler was routed via Erewash/Toton depot and on toward Leicester?

If not, where did it overtake?

Going back to the original question, when did the Master Cutler last go direct via Erewash? I had thought that it was diverted via Derby sometime in the 90s, but clearly it was still going the direct route in 2001. It couldn't have lasted much longer on that routing?
 

MichaelAMW

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I'm still dubious that the Cutler actually passed Derby on the goods lines. It would've had to come off the main at either Little Eaton Jn or St Mary's Jn and trundle along the up goods, then round the connecting line at London Road Jn. Can't see it myself to be honest.I
I agree. It looks to me from the track diagram in Post no. 40 that the "Connecting Line" is effectively inside the depot, so highy unlikely to be available for passenger trains under normal circumstances.

Going back to the original question, when did the Master Cutler last go direct via Erewash? I had thought that it was diverted via Derby sometime in the 90s, but clearly it was still going the direct route in 2001. It couldn't have lasted much longer on that routing?
The first timetable via Derby was May 2008, which looks to be when the Leeds - Nottingham service started. Prior to that it was 0614 off Leeds, Wakefield, Doncaster, Sheffield, Chesterfield, St Pancras.

 

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Western Sunset

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The "connecting line" wasn't really inside the depot. It was a fully signalled bi-directional running line, well used by goods traffic and workings from the C&W works that needed to head in the direction of Trent.
 

MichaelAMW

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The "connecting line" wasn't really inside the depot. It was a fully signalled bi-directional running line, well used by goods traffic and workings from the C&W works that needed to head in the direction of Trent.
I see. I was more noticing that the "Pilot Siding" and that big fan of other sidings, and the Connecting Line, all came together at a double slip. Unless the sidings and Pilot Siding had trap points, which they didn't originally, I would have thought the Connecting Line couldn't be used for passenger trains, even if for other trains it was indeed a running line. That said, maybe the requirements in the late 60s were different from today with regard to that sort of thing.
 

Western Sunset

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That's why I was wary that these lines, which I thought were NOT passenger rated, would've been used by the "Cutler". The double slip you refer to provided trap protection for the main lines; the other end of the connecting line didn't need traps as it led onto the goods lines. The Quail maps didn't always show all trap points though, as some are missing from their Derby diagram.
 

jfollows

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The first timetable via Derby was May 2008, which looks to be when the Leeds - Nottingham service started. Prior to that it was 0614 off Leeds, Wakefield, Doncaster, Sheffield, Chesterfield, St Pancras.
Good work. I'd gone through every timetable from September 2001 to December 2007 and had taken a break when you posted this, and for sure 1B00 Leeds-Saint Pancras was running via Erewash in every timetable I checked ...!
 

MichaelAMW

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The double slip you refer to provided trap protection for the main lines; the other end of the connecting line didn't need traps as it led onto the goods lines. The Quail maps didn't always show all trap points though, as some are missing from their Derby diagram.
Indeed - but I was thinking of protection from the sidings of any passenger train using the Connecting Line. Anyway, sounds like we agree. I was looking at the original signalling plan:

 

Western Sunset

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I think we've put it to bed that the "Cutler" wouldn't have passed through Derby on the goods lines alongside the station; instead using one of the platforms - probably #6 in the up direction and #1 in the down. Though I've no specific evidence other than one of the posters above saying that when they saw it pass it was on the far side.

In the days of mechanical signalling, there wasn't a "connecting line" as such, but a pair of up and down "intermediate" lines between London Road Jn and Way & Works Sdgs in Derby. There was a signalled route from the goods lines to the main line to Trent, but not in the other direction. Of course, in those days most of the freight traffic ran via Chadd anyway.
 

jfollows

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The Master Cutler started to use St Pancras from October 1968. Pullman cars ceased at this point. Until 1973 the only intermediate stop was Leicester London Road.
Here are the working timetables between Derby and Wellingborough 3/5/71 to 30/4/72 for 1M04 and 1E65, the up and down workings respectively, showing their timings through (and not stopping at) Derby.
PS My copy of the working timetable only arrived in the post this morning, which is why I didn't post this any earlier!
 

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Magdalia

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Here are the working timetables between Derby and Wellingborough 3/5/71 to 30/4/72 for 1M04 and 1E65, the up and down workings respectively, showing their timings through (and not stopping at) Derby.
PS My copy of the working timetable only arrived in the post this morning, which is why I didn't post this any earlier!
Thanks for this. Passenger Services over Unusual Lines has 1M04 and 1E65 Master Cutler via the Erewash (listed as Trent to Trowell Jns) starting in the 1972/73 timetable.
 

jfollows

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Thanks for this. Passenger Services over Unusual Lines has 1M04 and 1E65 Master Cutler via the Erewash (listed as Trent to Trowell Jns) starting in the 1972/73 timetable.
1M04 via Toton timings from 5/5/75 to 2/5/76 timetable attached.
Interesting that 1M11 and 1M13 bypassed Nottingham also.
PSUL (https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1975-6.pdf): 1M03 06:10, 1M04 07:15, 1M11 07:45, 1M13 08:30 & 1M88 16:50 Sheffield-Saint Pancras all used the Trent East - Trowell direct line in the up direction. 1E41 08:52, 1E72 16:20, 1E48 17:22 & 1E65 18:05 Saint Pancras-Sheffield in the down direction.
1656083219456.png
EDIT Just for completeness, timings of the 1975 down 1E48 & 1E65 via Toton, the latter with a call at Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway also attached. I don't know which of these two trains was then called "The Master Cutler" because the working timetable doesn't include this information, although "traditionally" 1E65 was the named train.
 

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LowLevel

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Via Retford to Kings Cross. No services ran into Kings Cross direct from Nottingham.
Not really relevant to the thread topic but as it happens there were a few scattered through history - I came across one not long in an old timetable, can't remember if it was 30s or 50s and there was a morning Nottingham Victoria to London Kings Cross local stopping service of all things, which took me somewhat by surprise!

Called at local stations to Grantham, then places like Essendine and took rather a long time to reach London!
 

D854_Tiger

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To add to the variety in steam days, the up Cutler on the GC to Marylebone was routed via Aylesbury, whilst the down went via Princes Risborough.

When transferred to the Midland route to St Pan (when running via Derby), though it didn't call there it was routed through the station rather than via Chaddesden - even though that line as a through route didn't close until May 1969.

So I make it six routes:
1. GC via Aylesbury
2. GC via Princes Risborough
3. GN via Retford (ex Sheff Vic)
4. GN via Retford (ex Sheff Mid)
5. Mid via Derby
6. Mid via Erewash Valley

I've often wondered what proportion of GC expresses used the NNL verses the Aylesbury route out of Marylebone.

I believe, after 1962 everything was sent via Aylesbury, around the time the MET was widened north of Harrow to four tracks.

Though after 1962 there were only three GC expresses each way to worry about.
 

Magdalia

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I've often wondered what proportion of GC expresses used the NNL verses the Aylesbury route out of Marylebone.

I believe, after 1962 everything was sent via Aylesbury, around the time the MET was widened north of Harrow to four tracks.

Though after 1962 there were only three GC expresses each way to worry about.
The big reduction in GC express services was in 1959. The three remaining Nottingham trains in each direction all had booked calls at Aylesbury Town.

In summer 1958, the last year of the Master Cutler to and from Marylebone, there were no calls between Marylebone and Rugby Central in either direction, so working timetables are required to reveal the booked routes.
 

Taunton

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Layout of Derby in 1990 (London Midland Region Track Diagrams, Quail Map Company, October 1990) attached; I don't know how much had changed since the 1969 resignalling. Prior to that, there was an avoiding line which the Blue Pullman used, north via Chaddesden South Junction, past Chaddesden Sidings, whence to Duffield [Derby South Junction to Derby North Junction], and the route had an option to run into Derby from the north end as well by turning left instead of right [Derby South Junction to Derby Junction], and I've got a 1968 working timetable showing passenger trains using primarily the latter route back to the station which allows trains to run Nottingham-Tamworth without reversing. I don't have a timetable showing the Master Cutler passing Derby without stopping.
Others have already said that the avoiding line via Chaddesden was removed as part of the 1969 resignalling.
Seems it was a common route for trains just departing Derby. Having gone through in the 1960s, local Derby-Nottingham locals would arrive via the current route and depart back to Nottingham by continuing straight ahead and turning this way.

The big reduction in GC express services was in 1959.
Possibly New Years' Eve. There was an extended and quite atmospheric article in about the March 1960 "Trains Illustrated" magazine (Modern Railways predecessor) by an observer who spent the day at Leicester Central, commenting on the last trains, loadings, locos, etc.
 

Magdalia

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Possibly New Years' Eve.
New Year's Day 1959 was a Thursday, I think the timetable change was the following weekend. The ER made big changes on the GE at the same time.

One of the Holy Grails for my library is a January 1959 ER timetable supplement!
 

Western Sunset

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I've got a GC WTT for the early 50s somewhere. If I recall, the down evening Cutler ran via Princes Risborough.

Regarding Nottm/Derby locals, at least for the DMU period of the early 60's, it was the other way round to that mentioned above. That is, trains arrived from Nottm via Chadd and departed Derby via the present route. This avoided conflicting moves at the busy London Rd Jn.
 

davidknibb

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When i were a lad - the garden of our house in north London backed onto the Marylebone-Aylesbury line - and the 'Cutler' regularly sprayed dirty smoke and steam all over mum's washing . From memory there were 2 named trains - The Master Cutler and the South Yorkshireman (running to Bradford). I don't think mum had a kitchen clock, but relied on the north bound SY - which passed by at about 17.15 - as a signal to start cooking evening meal for dad when he got home from work. But the most exciting event was when the south bound MC broke down right outside our garden and was stuck there for hours - causing havoc with the Metropolitan line trains which shared the same track in those days.
 

70014IronDuke

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When i were a lad - the garden of our house in north London backed onto the Marylebone-Aylesbury line - and the 'Cutler' regularly sprayed dirty smoke and steam all over mum's washing . From memory there were 2 named trains - The Master Cutler and the South Yorkshireman (running to Bradford). I don't think mum had a kitchen clock, but relied on the north bound SY - which passed by at about 17.15 - as a signal to start cooking evening meal for dad when he got home from work. But the most exciting event was when the south bound MC broke down right outside our garden and was stuck there for hours - causing havoc with the Metropolitan line trains which shared the same track in those days.

South bound must have meant around 09.30 - 10.00 in the morning? Would have been A3-hauled I should guess? Must have been something serious to stop the train for such a long time.
 

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