May 2018 timetable changes

[jamieintercity]

With changes planned for the likes of scotrail, Northern and thameslink for May. Is there any other operators planned for big changes in May.

 

[Barn]

Southeastern are changing their timetable, primarily but not entirely to fit around the new Thameslink services.

For more information see the bottom of this page: https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/thameslink-programme

It's described as a 'consultation' so I'd be interested if anyone knows whether this is now final or whether further drafts will emerge?

 

[cactustwirly]

Obviously a huge change for EMT because if Thameslink works.

And GWR, when TFL rail take over the Heathrow services

 

[43074]

VTEC services are amended for Thameslink as well - departures from King's Cross at xx00 Edinburgh etc
xx03 Leeds
xx06 Newark or York
xx30 Newcastle/Edinburgh
xx33 Leeds

Newcastle/Edinburgh semi-fasts accelerated by 5 mins Southbound
0540 ex Edinburgh Flying Scotsman decelerated by 4 mins
0700 Hull to London service accelerated slightly, being overtaken at Peterborough by the Scotsman rather than on the slow lines South of Grantham.

 

[Starmill]

The new TransPennine Express timetable is now (at least) partly visible in OpenTrainTimes.

The compromises involved to get the benefits are much more significant than I had thought they would be.

Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly: typical journey time increase of 11 minutes to 59 minutes
Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds: typical journey time increase of 3 minutes
Hull to Manchester Piccadilly: typical journey time increase of 6 minutes

Appears no Northern services for Bately, which results in a slight reduction in the number of daily services
St Helens and Wavertree Technology Park to Newton-le-Willows services reduce to hourly

Lea Green to Manchester Victoria: typical journey time decrease of 10 minutes, to 22 minutes and addition of through trains to Scarborough
Leeds to Manchester Victoria: 3tph in 48 minutes (1 at present) and a 4th in 51 minutes

 

[MG11]

Has it been confirmed if EM's XX:58 departures from STP are going to call aditionally at East Midlands Park?

 

[Confused147]

I am guessing all the big TOCs will have some amendments especially since Stoke-on-Trent to Blackpool have new services inserted. I'm hoping there are later services from Man Picc to London after 21:15sx and 20:35so.

 

[cactustwirly]

Has it been confirmed if EM's XX:58 departures from STP are going to call aditionally at East Midlands Park?

According to open train times, there's no xx58 from May, do you mean the xx04 Sheffield? Then no, runs fast from Leicester to Derby

 

[jamieintercity]

My local station, Carnoustie now has an hourly arbroath to Edinburgh service during the day but most Aberdeen to Glasgow services now longer appearing to call at Carnoustie during the day (morning/evening calls retained)

 

[pemma]

Leeds to Manchester Piccadilly: typical journey time increase of 11 minutes to 59 minutes
Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds: typical journey time increase of 3 minutes
Hull to Manchester Piccadilly: typical journey time increase of 6 minutes

It appears the complaints from Hull has been listened to as the Manchester-Hull will now only call at Dewsbury and Batley between Huddersfield and Leeds, rather than at 4 stations as originally proposed. As a consequence the Piccadilly-Leeds only service will be an all-stops between Huddersfield and Leeds. However, there will still be 3 extra calls on the Hull service - Mossley, Slaithwaite and Batley, which is why there's still an increase of 6 minutes.

Surprising the Newcastle-Airport is timetabled to take 30 minutes from Huddersfield to Victoria express - I thought going in to Victoria was supposed to be quicker than going via Guide Bridge, not slower.

Appears no Northern services for Bately, which results in a slight reduction in the number of daily services

A lot of Northern services haven't been added in yet so I wouldn't say OTT currently showing no Northern services at Batley automatically means none will stop there. Currently no Northern services are showing at Huddersfield but I don't think that means all Northern services between Huddersfield and Sheffield/Wakefield/Bradford are being withdrawn!

 

[berneyarms]

As with previous timetables - until the full timetable pdf files come out, anything in open train times or real time trains post May timetable change should be treated with extreme caution and certainly should not be treated as gospel.

 

[Spartacus]

Yes, and Wakefield Kirkgate's showing virtually nothing, so I think very few Northerns have been published. Looking at dates it seems TPEs were set up on the 4th, XC/GC on the 5th, HT on the 3rd, so it's looks like a rolling publication so the systems can cope. I'm hoping there's still be the Leeds - Victoria via Dewsbury stoppers, or at least some variation of it, they've been getting quite popular over the last few years.

Some nice additions I've noticed are a late stopper from Huddersfield to Leeds, and from Huddersfield to Manchester, and the Sunday service between Huddersfield and Leeds finally joins the 21st century with an hourly service, MAN - LDS, calling Man Pic, Stalybridge, Huddersfield then all shacks to Leeds.

 

[lejog]

It appears the complaints from Hull has been listened to as the Manchester-Hull will now only call at Dewsbury and Batley between Huddersfield and Leeds, rather than at 4 stations as originally proposed. As a consequence the Piccadilly-Leeds only service will be an all-stops between Huddersfield and Leeds. However, there will still be 3 extra calls on the Hull service - Mossley, Slaithwaite and Batley, which is why there's still an increase of 6 minutes.

Surprising the Newcastle-Airport is timetabled to take 30 minutes from Huddersfield to Victoria express - I thought going in to Victoria was supposed to be quicker than going via Guide Bridge, not slower.

A lot of Northern services haven't been added in yet so I wouldn't say OTT currently showing no Northern services at Batley automatically means none will stop there. Currently no Northern services are showing at Huddersfield but I don't think that means all Northern services between Huddersfield and Sheffield/Wakefield/Bradford are being withdrawn!

The Northern service from Brighouse to Leeds was due to skip Ravensthorpe and Batley according to franchise agreement and the consultation timetable and it looks as if thats still the case. The TPE North timetable seems been rejigged to provide a clockface 15min service between Victoria and Leeds, very different from now and the stoppers rearranged between these.

Victoria x.02 Huddersfield x.30 Leeds x.52 Lime St to Newcastle
Victoria x.07 Huddersfield x.45 Leeds x.12 Airport to Middlesbrough
Victoria x.32 Huddersfield y.00 Leeds y.21 Lime St to Scarborough
Victoria x.47 Huddersfield y.15 Leeds y.39 Airport to Newcastle

Piccadilly x.47 Huddersfield y.22 Leeds y.48 calling at Stalyridge, Mossley, Slaithwaite, Hud, Dewsbury, Batley to Hull. Fits between the 47 and 02 from Victoria
Piccadilly x.17 Huddersfield x.52 Leeds y.30 calling at Stalybridge, Greenfields, Marsden, Hud and all stations to Leeds except Cottingley. 5 min wait at Dewsbury to be passed by the Scarborough service.

On the return journey, the Leeds-Piccadilly stopper is passed by a fast train at Heaton Lodge Junction.

 

[Viscount702]

Do we know why the Newcastles run 15 minutes apart rather than 30 .

 

[lejog]

Because the Airport and Liverpool services run every 30mins?

 

[pemma]

The Northern service from Brighouse to Leeds was due to skip Ravensthorpe and Batley according to franchise agreement and the consultation timetable and it looks as if thats still the case.

I agree that was the case for the standard pattern services but I think Northern were still due to provide some peak time extras at stations where the standard pattern service was being handed over to TPE.

 

[pemma]

Because the Airport and Liverpool services run every 30mins?

Indeed. It's similar to why for years Manchester/Huddersfield-York had 3tph but the services weren't at 20 minute intervals.

 

[IanXC]

It appears the complaints from Hull has been listened to as the Manchester-Hull will now only call at Dewsbury and Batley between Huddersfield and Leeds, rather than at 4 stations as originally proposed. As a consequence the Piccadilly-Leeds only service will be an all-stops between Huddersfield and Leeds. However, there will still be 3 extra calls on the Hull service - Mossley, Slaithwaite and Batley, which is why there's still an increase of 6 minutes.

The Hull services seem to also have picked up the Garforth calls, which is particularly disappointing in this context, as it damages Hull's service to Leeds - over and above the damage being done to Hull's Manchester service.

I still cannot fathom how and why the DfT felt that 4 fast trains per hour from York to Manchester was more important that 1 fast train per hour from Hull to Manchester.

 

[pemma]

The Hull services seem to also have picked up the Garforth calls, which is particularly disappointing in this context, as it damages Hull's service to Leeds - over and above the damage being done to Hull's Manchester service.

I still cannot fathom how and why the DfT felt that 4 fast trains per hour from York to Manchester was more important that 1 fast train per hour from Hull to Manchester.

From my experience it's easier to find an empty seat on an ex-Hull service at Leeds than one which has come from York, despite York services being more frequent.

There are quite a number of disadvantages of the new timetable over the old one. If there weren't so many local service enhancements on lines in to Piccadilly I think a lot of people from Greater Manchester/Cheshire/Derbyshire would be complaining about journeys to West Yorkshire and beyond taking longer but with the local enhancements it might be a journey to Leeds takes longer but one to Hull is quicker (despite the extra 6 minutes) due to a shorter connection time.

 

[IanXC]

From my experience it's easier to find an empty seat on an ex-Hull service at Leeds than one which has come from York, despite York services being more frequent.

There are quite a number of disadvantages of the new timetable over the old one. If there weren't so many local service enhancements on lines in to Piccadilly I think a lot of people from Greater Manchester/Cheshire/Derbyshire would be complaining about journeys to West Yorkshire and beyond taking longer but with the local enhancements it might be a journey to Leeds takes longer but one to Hull is quicker (despite the extra 6 minutes) due to a shorter connection time.

That's true in terms of the edge cases where people are making connections, but the key issue in my view is that the rail offering is already so poor for journies to Manchester, that the business market travel by road. The amount of surpressed demand can be easily seen by the flows from Hull to London and Sheffield, and by the M62.

I just find it astounding that the main intercity service from Hull to Manchester is seen as a suitable train to call at random villages and minor towns. Perhaps the CrossCountry Reading to Newcastle services should call at Water Orton?(!)

 

[Halish Railway]

With the TPE situation, I think that one of the services should have gone via Wakefield Kirkgate, so that enough paths would have been available on the two track line between Leeds and Horbury Junction, for Northern to still operate a half-hourly service as present. As a result the ex-Hull doesn't need to make as many stops as planned.

 

[Halish Railway]

Also, how long will the Hull to Manchester trains be? 6 coaches? Additionally, the Leeds to Manchester will have to be three coaches (certainly off peak) to fit into Platform 13.

 

[AlanFry1]

No changes to the LO/GA WAML and lea valley routes I suppose?

 

[pemma]

That's true in terms of the edge cases where people are making connections, but the key issue in my view is that the rail offering is already so poor for journies to Manchester, that the business market travel by road. The amount of surpressed demand can be easily seen by the flows from Hull to London and Sheffield, and by the M62.

I just find it astounding that the main intercity service from Hull to Manchester is seen as a suitable train to call at random villages and minor towns. Perhaps the CrossCountry Reading to Newcastle services should call at Water Orton?(!)

TPE will be the only service between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, so it's not dis-similar to when there were no off-peak stoppers between Macclesfield and Stoke and XC stopped services at Congleton.

What needs to be remembered is not all journeys made via the M62 are city centre to city centre. A company I used to work for had two major contracts with companies based in Hull and each time a visit was made to the clients' head offices it was done by road. The closest anyone who visited the clients lived to Manchester city centre was Didsbury so even if there was a non-stop service from Manchester to Hull, without good connections the M62 would still have been a more attractive option.

 

[lejog]

I agree that was the case for the standard pattern services but I think Northern were still due to provide some peak time extras at stations where the standard pattern service was being handed over to TPE.

The only call at Batley that Northern were due to make according to the franchise agreement was a single pre 6am departure from Leeds, and only if TPE failed to provide a service at that time. There were a couple of peak extra calls at Ravensthorpe of all places. The service at the moment, skipping Ravensthorpe and (sometimes) Cottingley fits into a 19/20 minute gap between TPE services, it will have to get its skates on if it is to run in a 15min gap, without taking on extra calls.

 

[pemma]

With the TPE situation, I think that one of the services should have gone via Wakefield Kirkgate, so that enough paths would have been available on the two track line between Leeds and Horbury Junction, for Northern to still operate a half-hourly service as present. As a result the ex-Hull doesn't need to make as many stops as planned.

I've said time and time again if there was a better Huddersfield-Wakefield service it would mean some of those who currently change between TPE and EC services at Leeds could avoid travelling via Leeds and leave more space on the trains for those travelling to Leeds.

 

[pemma]

The only call at Batley that Northern were due to make according to the franchise agreement was a single pre 6am departure from Leeds, and only if TPE failed to provide a service at that time. There were a couple of peak extra calls at Ravensthorpe of all places. The service at the moment, skipping Ravensthorpe and (sometimes) Cottingley fits into a 19/20 minute gap between TPE services, it will have to get its skates on if it is to run in a 15min gap, without taking on extra calls.

Remember the franchise agreement specifies the minimum service level and the maximum journey times. If Northern want to make additional calls they can request to make them provided they comply with the maximum journey times set out and can fit their services around other operator's services.

 

[Ianno87]

I've said time and time again if there was a better Huddersfield-Wakefield service it would mean some of those who currently change between TPE and EC services at Leeds could avoid travelling via Leeds and leave more space on the trains for those travelling to Leeds.

I wonder how many % of passengers that would genuinely be abstracted? Whilst yes, there would be a few, might not be quite so dramatic as you might think, IMO. Particularly as Huddersfield-London passengers also have the option of going via Piccadilly and VTWC, splitting London demand via both routes anyway (or via Penistone and Sheffield for the truly hardy). And passengers making EC connections at Leeds will be a relatively small proportion compared to those just joing to Leeds/York etc themselves.

Effective abstraction would also depend on decent timetable connections being available at Westgate (tricky due to infrastructure constraints)

 

[Starmill]

The services as proposed from London Euston to Blackpool North are provisionally viewable now too, for example.

 

[Starmill]

A lot of Northern services haven't been added in yet so I wouldn't say OTT currently showing no Northern services at Batley automatically means none will stop there. Currently no Northern services are showing at Huddersfield but I don't think that means all Northern services between Huddersfield and Sheffield/Wakefield/Bradford are being withdrawn!

What does that have to do with anything? The service as shown at Batley at present appears to comply with the requirements. There is nothing to stop additional services being provided over and above this, which is why I said it was only likely that there would be no services rather than certain. There are requirements to run services on the Penistone and other lines you mention, so we can be sure they will run.

The Hull services seem to also have picked up the Garforth calls, which is particularly disappointing in this context, as it damages Hull's service to Leeds - over and above the damage being done to Hull's Manchester service.

I found this especially surprising and similarly disappointing.