May 2020 timetable changes

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Johnny Lewis

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I don't think there's already a thread for these.

On LNER, the promised two-hourly service between Bradford Forster Square (BDQ) and London King's Cross (KGX) have not yet materialised. However, there is an additional 1 train each way on every day of the week, including, for the first time for many years, a direct service each way on Sundays.

Mondays to Saturdays:
1A19 08.43 BDQ - KGX 11.31 (11.33 Sat)
1D22 16.33 KGX - BDQ 19.29

Sundays:
1A26 10.25 BDQ - KGX 13.33
1D30 19.35 KGX - BDQ 22.22

All trains will also call at Shipley.

Unfortunately the Monday to Friday trains are just a little bit poorly timed to be decent commuter-busting services between Bradford and Leeds. It's also a little disappointing that the ECS off the first BDQ arrival (1929) doesn't then form the 20.45 LDS - KGX, rather than running ECS back to Doncaster Carr. Still, it's a start, and hopefully paves the way to better Bradford and Shipley links in the future.
 
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Ianno87

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Unfortunately the Monday to Friday trains are just a little bit poorly timed to be decent commuter-busting services between Bradford and Leeds. It's also a little disappointing that the ECS off the first BDQ arrival (1929) doesn't then form the 20.45 LDS - KGX, rather than running ECS back to Doncaster Carr.
Almost certainly to get the diagrams to work / adequate amount of time on depot to fulfil the maintenance contracts.

I'd struggle to see a 2000-2015ish departure from Bradford to London tapping any particularly significant demand that isn't already satisfied by a connection at Leeds.
 

TheBigD

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I don't think there's already a thread for these.

On LNER, the promised two-hourly service between Bradford Forster Square (BDQ) and London King's Cross (KGX) have not yet materialised. However, there is an additional 1 train each way on every day of the week, including, for the first time for many years, a direct service each way on Sundays.

Mondays to Saturdays:
1A19 08.43 BDQ - KGX 11.31 (11.33 Sat)
1D22 16.33 KGX - BDQ 19.29

Sundays:
1A26 10.25 BDQ - KGX 13.33
1D30 19.35 KGX - BDQ 22.22
Some of them are very close to the current Grand Central services...

Mon to Fri 0756 BDI-KGX (1117)
Sat 0844 BDI-KGX (1158)

Mon to Sat 1627 KGX-BDI (1921)
Sun 1922 KGX-BDI (2213)

On a Sunday evening Bradford passengers will be spoilt for choice with an 1850 (GC), 1922 (GC) & 1935 (LNER) departures from Kings Cross.
 

Glenn1969

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Also the Huddersfield train has been loaded onto RTT

HUD 0550/DEW 0601- KGX 0851 1A06
KGX 1803- DEW 2047/ HUD 2058 1D26/1D00 (this train appears to Divide at Leeds P6. I struggled to work out whether the split is from this train or the preceding one!)
 

Glenn1969

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The following are also loaded at least in part

Avanti West Coast
East Midlands Railway
Great Western
Transport for Wales
 

jawr256

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The new open access services between Blackpool North and London Euston are in, with TOC code LN - currently showing in RTT are five services each way M-Sa and four services on Sunday - though I note the 15:33 Euston departure is currently missing on Wednesdays.
 

PHILIPE

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The following are also loaded at least in part

Avanti West Coast
East Midlands Railway
Great Western
Transport for Wales
Don't rely on them being accurate at this time yet. What you see is the previous Timetable downloaded but which could still be in the process of being edited to update. Best thing is to wait until 12 weeks before the start
 

Johnny Lewis

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Don't rely on them being accurate at this time yet. What you see is the previous Timetable downloaded but which could still be in the process of being edited to update. Best thing is to wait until 12 weeks before the start
What's in the system is what Network Rail have started to upload, on a TOC by TOC basis, following the Bid & Offer process. It is not a straightforward rollover of the current timetable. If you look at the dates of what has been uploaded, trains are dated from mid-May to mid-December 2020.
There may be few, if any, significant changes between December 2019 and May 2020, but I can assure you that it's not just a rollover.
Changes may occur between now and the start of the May timetable, but these are as a result of either Spot Bids submitted by the individual TOCs, or as a result of genuine planning errors that have been identified after the Offer and need to be resolved.
 

Glenn1969

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Think that has been added this afternoon

With several oddities including all the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers being extended to Wakefield Kirkgate and the 3am Sheffield train being extended to Cleethorpes. Are some of these likely to be removed?
 
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Class 170101

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Also the Huddersfield train has been loaded onto RTT

HUD 0550/DEW 0601- KGX 0851 1A06
KGX 1803- DEW 2047/ HUD 2058 1D26/1D00 (this train appears to Divide at Leeds P6. I struggled to work out whether the split is from this train or the preceding one!)
18:03 is the current Skipton splitting at Leeds by the looks of it. In the opposite direction it looks like Huddersfield runs as a 5 car between there and Leeds where an additional unit from Doncaster depot joins it.
 

Greybeard33

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With several oddities including all the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers being extended to Wakefield Kirkgate and the 3am Sheffield train being extended to Cleethorpes. Are some of these likely to be removed?
I guess the Wakefield extension of the TPE Piccadilly stopper is mainly to reduce platform occupancy at Huddersfield, rather than to improve Wakefield services. Like the Redcar extension of the Middlesbrough service last month.
 

_toommm_

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I guess the Wakefield extension of the TPE Piccadilly stopper is mainly to reduce platform occupancy at Huddersfield, rather than to improve Wakefield services. Like the Redcar extension of the Middlesbrough service last month.
It also allows them to get to Crofton Depot easier (which I believe was the rationale for extending the final Picc to Huddersfield stopper for the Dec 19 timetable, before that got removed).
 

_toommm_

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Think that has been added this afternoon

With several oddities including all the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers being extended to Wakefield Kirkgate and the 3am Sheffield train being extended to Cleethorpes. Are some of these likely to be removed?
Blue sky thinking, but as a lot more of the new trains will be on operation then, are they possibly wanting to do what they do with York and have overnight services to the Airport? I notice there's also a departure just before 01:00 to the Airport running from Cleethorpes.
 

Ianno87

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The new open access services between Blackpool North and London Euston are in, with TOC code LN - currently showing in RTT are five services each way M-Sa and four services on Sunday - though I note the 15:33 Euston departure is currently missing on Wednesdays.
The 1533 path from Euston on a Wednesday used to be the New Measurement Trains's Fast Line run, which might explain the omission....
 

Peter Bonner

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I guess the Wakefield extension of the TPE Piccadilly stopper is mainly to reduce platform occupancy at Huddersfield, rather than to improve Wakefield services. Like the Redcar extension of the Middlesbrough service last month.
In pre Northern days the Hudd to Wakefield service ran to/from.Manchester. Just needs to be more reliable than.now!
 

Jamesrob637

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Extra trains from Manchester to Stoke and Chester on Sundays plus the Mon-Sat extras to Altrincham/Greenbank, or am I being hopelessly optimistic? Already at least 2-3 years late! Mind you, Sundays can't warrant even the existing timetable at present.
 

evergreenadam

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I guess the Wakefield extension of the TPE Piccadilly stopper is mainly to reduce platform occupancy at Huddersfield, rather than to improve Wakefield services. Like the Redcar extension of the Middlesbrough service last month.

Although I have always thought a direct Wakefield to Manchester service would be popular. No idea if one ever run in the past. Seems odd for that part of West Yorkshire to be isolated from Manchester.
 

Jamesrob637

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Although I have always thought a direct Wakefield to Manchester service would be popular. No idea if one ever run in the past. Seems odd for that part of West Yorkshire to be isolated from Manchester.
Wakefield (as my origins are there) is bigger than most people think!
 

js1000

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Any chance of Northern services reverting back to something closer to pre-may 2018?
I think some 'rollback' is inevitable. Northern have talked about introducing an amended timetable to work with the existing infrastructure if their revised 'service proposal' is/was accepted by the DfT so I think there is a possibility some changes can be implemented which are not contingent on the timetable.

The Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport is the obvious one to be split - if that service is even 5 minutes into Manchester it causes mayhem. And even if it's on-time you have to pray Northern have a crew ready at Oxford Road. TPE would be delighted to see the back of it.

The express Liverpool to Manchester Airport service will remain. TPE previously operated this service and Liverpool losing a direct 'fast' rail link to Manchester Airport would be politically unacceptable. Northern allocate 6 coaches at peak times so clearly this route is one they feel is worthwhile pursuing and has revenue-earning potential (which the franchise desperately needs). Someone made a good point it may be worthwhile adding a couple more stops into this service (potentially Hunts Cross and Widnes) to reduce likelihood of it catching up to slower trains as well as capacity boost.

Southport-Alderley Edge will survive as is assuming they can get the 769s into an operable and reliable state. The services from Blackpool North and Preston to Hazel Grove / Manchester Airport will have to be reviewed. The turnaround time on those services north west of Manchester are simply not sufficient to maintain a reliable timetable.
 

Mr Mean

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Although I have always thought a direct Wakefield to Manchester service would be popular. No idea if one ever run in the past. Seems odd for that part of West Yorkshire to be isolated from Manchester.
Years ago there was a North West Man Vic to Wakefield Westage service.

Unlike this service, the new one doesn't appear to stop at Mirfield or Deighton.
 

Kieran1990

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Years ago there was a North West Man Vic to Wakefield Westage service.

Unlike this service, the new one doesn't appear to stop at Mirfield or Deighton.
probably because the express behind to Leeds and the North East would catch it up with the two stops.
 

Greybeard33

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The services from Blackpool North and Preston to Hazel Grove / Manchester Airport will have to be reviewed. The turnaround time on those services are simply not sufficient to maintain a reliable timetable.
The Hazel Grove and Airport services each have 40 minute turnarounds at Blackpool North, far more than needed for reliability.

The Preston to Victoria stopper has 5 minute turnarounds, but it does not go through the Castlefield corridor and there will be plenty of slack in the timings once the 319s are replaced by faster accelerating 323s or 331s.
 
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Mathew S

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I think some 'rollback' is inevitable. Northern have talked about introducing an amended timetable to work with the existing infrastructure if their revised 'service proposal' is/was accepted by the DfT so I think there is a possibility some changes can be implemented which are not contingent on the timetable.
The political pressure, though, is very much for that not to happen.

The reasoning behind that is simple enough; if the Metro Mayor's get what they've been asking for, and the first thing that happens is (what most normal passengers will see as) swingeing cutbacks to services, there'll be a huge backlash. Consumers want what they've been promised. Small changes they'll accept, but actual cuts to services - even if it's phrased as 'going back to what worked before' - are just going to drive people off the trains and back to their cars.

Much as it's decried on this forum, normal people want these complex, through-Manchester services because they want to be able to travel without changing trains, and especially without changing at large stations like Piccadilly, Victoria, or even Oxford Road.
 
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nr758123

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I guess the Wakefield extension of the TPE Piccadilly stopper is mainly to reduce platform occupancy at Huddersfield, rather than to improve Wakefield services. Like the Redcar extension of the Middlesbrough service last month.
Is it wise to try to push an extra service through Thornhill Junction?
 
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