May 2020 timetable changes

[nr758123]

I have a vague memory of some North Wales coast services running through to Wakefield in the early 1990s. Was this the case?

Llandudno to Wakefield Westgate calling at just about everywhere

 

[johnnychips]

I have a vague memory of some North Wales coast services running through to Wakefield in the early 1990s. Was this the case?

Yes, I went all the way from Wakefield to Bangor at about that time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Yes, I went all the way from Wakefield to Bangor at about that time.

There was a Manchester-Llandudno train which started all the way back in Hull, it occasionally produced a 142 when Neville Hill was short of Sprinters. Think this was back in the late 1980s when there was still an hourly loco-hauled on the Newcastle/York-Liverpool axis.

 

[Glenn1969]

Grand Central were added today

 

[Peter Bonner]

There was a Manchester-Llandudno train which started all the way back in Hull, it occasionally produced a 142 when Neville Hill was short of Sprinters. Think this was back in the late 1980s when there was still an hourly loco-hauled on the Newcastle/York-Liverpool axis.

In mid to late 80s there was also a through service from Hull to Carlisle if I remember coreectly. 31/4 and Mk1 stock. Anyone remember that?

 

[xotGD]

In mid to late 80s there was also a through service from Hull to Carlisle if I remember coreectly. 31/4 and Mk1 stock. Anyone remember that?

Hull - Lancaster too, IIRC. Also with 31/4s.

 

[Flying Claret]

Hull - Lancaster too, IIRC. Also with 31/4s.

Out of interest, What route did this take? Was it via Bentham or another less direct?

 

[blackfive460]

Out of interest, What route did this take? Was it via Bentham or another less direct?

Bentham.

 

[TheBigD]

An additional Grand Central Sunderland service is shown as...

Mon to Sat - 0955 ex Sunderland, 1427 ex Kings Cross
Sun - 1028 ex Sunderland, 1523 ex Kings Cross

 

[Greybeard33]

Although I have always thought a direct Wakefield to Manchester service would be popular. No idea if one ever run in the past. Seems odd for that part of West Yorkshire to be isolated from Manchester.

One implication of the TPE extension to Wakefield is that TPE and the Rail North Partnership have presumably given up on their ambition to re-join the two halves of the split stopper in December 2020, recreating a sixth through Manchester to Leeds train per the franchise agreement. It would be poor PR to give Wakefield a new service, only to take it away again six months later.

 

[Class 170101]

One implication of the TPE extension to Wakefield is that TPE and the Rail North Partnership have presumably given up on their ambition to re-join the two halves of the split stopper in December 2020, recreating a sixth through Manchester to Leeds train per the franchise agreement. It would be poor PR to give Wakefield a new service, only to take it away again six months later.

Surprised it wasn't extended from Kirkgate to Leeds via this route taking pressure off the main route via Dewsbury.

 

[Camden]

The Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport is the obvious one to be split - if that service is even 5 minutes into Manchester it causes mayhem. And even if it's on-time you have to pray Northern have a crew ready at Oxford Road. TPE would be delighted to see the back of it.

The express Liverpool to Manchester Airport service will remain. TPE previously operated this service and Liverpool losing a direct 'fast' rail link to Manchester Airport would be politically unacceptable. Northern allocate 6 coaches at peak times so clearly this route is one they feel is worthwhile pursuing and has revenue-earning potential (which the franchise desperately needs). Someone made a good point it may be worthwhile adding a couple more stops into this service (potentially Hunts Cross and Widnes) to reduce likelihood of it catching up to slower trains as well as capacity boost.

TPE have never operated trains from Liverpool to Manchester airport. Previously, Manchester Airport trains were Northern trains.

Where would you split the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester? And what is it about this service in particular that makes you say it's problematic?

Prior to the Big Change, Liverpool's east bound services were, per hour:
1 x 3 carriage TPE via Chat Moss to Newcastle
1 x 6 carriage TPE via Warrington to Scarborough
1 x 4 carriage Northern stopper via CM to Mcr Victoria
1 x 4 carriage Northern stopper via Warr to Mcr Ox Rd
1 x 4 carriage Northern semi-fast via Warr to Mcr airport
1 x 4 carriage semi-fast East Mids via Warr to Norwich

It's worth noting that all the above suffered from overcrowding, so cutting isn't an option.

The Victoria stopper effectively got switched (bar a few a day) to Picc and got joined to a Crewe - Manchester service to arrive at the service spoken about above. Plus the two TPEs now run via Chat Moss.

The mythical Northern Connect services never materialised, so the changes haven't represented a great deal for Liverpool and its region.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Also the Huddersfield train has been loaded onto RTT

HUD 0550/DEW 0601- KGX 0851 1A06
KGX 1803- DEW 2047/ HUD 2058 1D26/1D00 (this train appears to Divide at Leeds P6. I struggled to work out whether the split is from this train or the preceding one!)

What an absolute shame that people will be able to get a train from Huddersfield at 06:14 and still have 7 minutes to get the 05:50 off Hudd at Leeds. Madness.

As for the return, I see the 18:03 from KGX is the one that gets to Leeds and splits off to give the Huddersfield portion. At least it doesn't sit at Leeds long enough to make it worth getting on a TPE.

 

[geoffk]

Extra trains from Manchester to Stoke and Chester on Sundays plus the Mon-Sat extras to Altrincham/Greenbank, or am I being hopelessly optimistic? Already at least 2-3 years late! Mind you, Sundays can't warrant even the existing timetable at present.

Not until the Sunday working arrangements are sorted out.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Think that has been added this afternoon

With several oddities including all the Manchester to Huddersfield stoppers being extended to Wakefield Kirkgate and the 3am Sheffield train being extended to Cleethorpes. Are some of these likely to be removed?

I assume this means the Huddersfield - Castleford shuttle is being split; with the Castleford - Kirkgate portion being worked by Northern as a separate item?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

What an absolute shame that people will be able to get a train from Huddersfield at 06:14 and still have 7 minutes to get the 05:50 off Hudd at Leeds. Madness.

As for the return, I see the 18:03 from KGX is the one that gets to Leeds and splits off to give the Huddersfield portion. At least it doesn't sit at Leeds long enough to make it worth getting on a TPE.

Although 7 minutes isn't a valid connection at Leeds so won't be shown in journey itineraries and would be risky if using Advance tickets or suchlike.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Extra trains from Manchester to Stoke

More accurate would be 'A usable, hourly service for Bramhall, Poynton, Adlington, Prestbury and Congleton'
over 2 years late, whatever the excuse, is abysmal, disgusting and unacceptable.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I assume this means the Huddersfield - Castleford shuttle is being split; with the Castleford - Kirkgate portion being worked by Northern as a separate item?

The TPE services appear to run non-stop between Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate, so I would expect the Northern service (which currently calls at Deighton and Mirfield) to be maintained. It currently only runs Mondays to Saturdays, whereas the proposed TPE Wakefield services are shown to run on Sundays too, so this gives a regular Huddersfield to Wakefield direct service on Sundays for the first time in, I suspect, many years.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The TPE services appear to run non-stop between Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate, so I would expect the Northern service (which currently calls at Deighton and Mirfield) to be maintained. It currently only runs Mondays to Saturdays, whereas the proposed TPE Wakefield services are shown to run on Sundays too, so this gives a regular Huddersfield to Wakefield direct service on Sundays for the first time in, I suspect, many years.

Unless the Huddersfield - Leeds local will be supplemented by some form of Leeds - Castleford - Wakefield - Brighouse or even a service from the Halifax / Hebden Bridge directions to Kirkgate to give connectivity to Wakefield?

 

[Whisky Papa]

TPE have never operated trains from Liverpool to Manchester airport. Previously, Manchester Airport trains were Northern trains.

Where would you split the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester? And what is it about this service in particular that makes you say it's problematic?

Prior to the Big Change, Liverpool's east bound services were, per hour:
1 x 3 carriage TPE via Chat Moss to Newcastle
1 x 6 carriage TPE via Warrington to Scarborough
1 x 4 carriage Northern stopper via CM to Mcr Victoria
1 x 4 carriage Northern stopper via Warr to Mcr Ox Rd
1 x 4 carriage Northern semi-fast via Warr to Mcr airport
1 x 4 carriage semi-fast East Mids via Warr to Norwich

It's worth noting that all the above suffered from overcrowding, so cutting isn't an option.

The Victoria stopper effectively got switched (bar a few a day) to Picc and got joined to a Crewe - Manchester service to arrive at the service spoken about above. Plus the two TPEs now run via Chat Moss.

The mythical Northern Connect services never materialised, so the changes haven't represented a great deal for Liverpool and its region.

You seem to have got the TPE Scarborough service, EMT Norwich service and Northern Airport service all running via Warrington Central? There are two stoppers per hour, and only two of the above three faster trains ran at any one time. Northern's Airport service ran via Chat Moss until the Scarborough service switched to that route, at which point it changed to the Warrington line.

 

[Camden]

Been through it - only one is incorrect, which is the airport semi-fast. That ran as you say via Chat Moss.

 

[arb]

Great Northern's changes for May are in RTT. Some interesting strengthening between Ely and Cambridge towards the end of the morning peak. Both the 0845 and 0948 departures from Ely (both of which have come from King's Lynn, and join with more carriages at Cambridge) now have their front carriages starting from Ely a few minutes ahead of the King's Lynn train, at 0842 and 0941 respectively. Nothing similar for the 0825 and 0917 departures from Ely.

The 0842 might even be 8-car, because it doesn't call at Waterbeach (the 0941 does call at Waterbeach). However, based on the current restriction codes, the 0842 8-car will be peak for Ely-Cambridge, whilst its partner, the 0845 4-car, will remain off-peak! If this doesn't change then I wonder how many people will actually switch to using the 0842 (since off-peak day returns on this route are cheaper than a season).

 

[Ianno87]

Great Northern's changes for May are in RTT. Some interesting strengthening between Ely and Cambridge towards the end of the morning peak. Both the 0845 and 0948 departures from Ely (both of which have come from King's Lynn, and join with more carriages at Cambridge) now have their front carriages starting from Ely a few minutes ahead of the King's Lynn train, at 0842 and 0941 respectively. Nothing similar for the 0825 and 0917 departures from Ely.

The 0842 might even be 8-car, because it doesn't call at Waterbeach (the 0941 does call at Waterbeach). However, based on the current restriction codes, the 0842 8-car will be peak for Ely-Cambridge, whilst its partner, the 0845 4-car, will remain off-peak! If this doesn't change then I wonder how many people will actually switch to using the 0842 (since off-peak day returns on this route are cheaper than a season).

Waterbeach and Littleport platforms should be lengthend to 8-car by May, I believe.

 

[arb]

Waterbeach and Littleport platforms should be lengthend to 8-car by May, I believe.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/kings-lynn-service-enhancement/ says not until December.

 

[bramling]

Great Northern's changes for May are in RTT. Some interesting strengthening between Ely and Cambridge towards the end of the morning peak. Both the 0845 and 0948 departures from Ely (both of which have come from King's Lynn, and join with more carriages at Cambridge) now have their front carriages starting from Ely a few minutes ahead of the King's Lynn train, at 0842 and 0941 respectively. Nothing similar for the 0825 and 0917 departures from Ely.

The 0842 might even be 8-car, because it doesn't call at Waterbeach (the 0941 does call at Waterbeach). However, based on the current restriction codes, the 0842 8-car will be peak for Ely-Cambridge, whilst its partner, the 0845 4-car, will remain off-peak! If this doesn't change then I wonder how many people will actually switch to using the 0842 (since off-peak day returns on this route are cheaper than a season).

I’ve had a look at some of the other GN services. From a very cursory glance through I’ve noticed the following:

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

1) Minor retimings across the board, with Cambridge stopping service now departing KX at XX22 and XX52.

2) All the AM peak up Baldock to KX 365 services now call at Finsbury Park (I do wonder what if any operational logic there is to this, as one nice feature of the current timetable is pretty much everything through Finsbury Park platform 4 is non-stop, which must make life a lot easier for the signallers).

3) The single morning Brighton/Royston and return service will run through to Cambridge.

4) King’s Cross platform 0 seems to be out of commission, which has led to quite a bit of re-platforming at KX. This has led to some tighter turnrounds particularly for services which arrive or depart empty at King’s Cross before or after their respective service. Hopefully this may ease in the future.

5) 1R58 1957 KX to Baldock changes to 1954 in accordance with all the other XX54 and XX24 Baldock services, and calls additionally at Welwyn North as does the 2054.

6) 1R66 2154 KX to Letchworth calls additionally at Welwyn North, and is extended to Baldock.

7) 2R33 1256 Letchworth to KX now runs 4 minutes later as far as Knebworth with stand time at Stevenage removed (why this service ever ran like this is a mystery as it has always tended to leave Letchworth late by the looks of it, apparently being too close behind the Brighton service to get out of the sidings in time).

8) A new 1P80 0736 KX to Peterborough service formed of 2x365, which is a former ECS service converted to passenger, and calling at St Neots, Huntington and Peterborough only (however don't expect a sparkling run as it is booked on the down slow north of Woolmer Green!).

9) A new 2Y12 0936 KX to Welwyn Garden City service formed of a 700/0.

10) 2Y98 0140 KX to Welwyn Garden City changes from 700/0 to 1x717.

11) The various minor changes to routings and timings of the 2Cxx services in the evening made to accommodate the Moorgate services being diverted to KX are undone.

SATURDAYS

1) Cambridge to Brighton goes half-hourly through most of the day, as far as I can tell this is exclusively formed of 700/1, associated with this is a new 1C04 0603 KX to Cambridge.

2) 1C76 0032 KX to Cambridge runs 1 minute later and changes from 1x387 to 700/0.

3) 2R72 0024 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 2x387.

SUNDAYS

1) The hourly Cambridge - Gatwick Airport service is extended to Brighton except for one trip at the start and end of service.

2) 2R42 1632 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 1x387, and 2R46 1732 KX to Letchworth changes from 1x387 to 700/0.

The outstanding elements compared with the ill-fated May 2018 timetable are thus:
1) Weekend KX-Cambridge stopping service extended to 2tph between Royston and Cambridge (is this still the plan or has this been permanently changed to 1tph reversing at Royston?).
2) Horsham-London Bridge and KX-Peterborough joined on Sundays.

 

[arb]

And I now remember that the "new" 0941 from Ely is simply reinstating a service that used to exist until a year or so ago, but is currently running as empty stock, not in passenger service.

 

[43074]

Talking of GTR I'm surprised no one has picked up on the lack of Southern attachments and detachments at Haywards Heath and the reduced number of red trains serving Gatwick Airport... All to do with protecting performance with Gatwick platforms 6 and 7 being out of use to passengers whilst the station is rebuilt.

 

[MikeWM]

Great Northern's changes for May are in RTT. Some interesting strengthening between Ely and Cambridge towards the end of the morning peak. Both the 0845 and 0948 departures from Ely (both of which have come from King's Lynn, and join with more carriages at Cambridge) now have their front carriages starting from Ely a few minutes ahead of the King's Lynn train, at 0842 and 0941 respectively. Nothing similar for the 0825 and 0917 departures from Ely.

This would be a rather pleasant enhancement, if it comes about in May. The 0845, on the few occasions I've had to catch it, has urgently needed more capacity. And the 0948 - my usual commuting train - while less crowded than the 0845, has become increasingly popular since it was started back from Kings Lynn in May 2018. Occasionally nowadays it is standing-room-only from Waterbeach, and quite often from Cambridge North. It gets a lot of college students in term-time and a lot of day-trippers outside term-time.

On a personal note, I much prefer getting on trains at their starting station, so it will be very nice to be able to do so again

And I now remember that the "new" 0941 from Ely is simply reinstating a service that used to exist until a year or so ago, but is currently running as empty stock, not in passenger service.

They juggled the stock around in May 2018 and 'replaced' it with a Kings Lynn starter, leaving the service that was previously formed from the 0812 KGX-ELY to just run ECS ELY to CBG - as it still does. Actually this ECS is still listed in RTT as running after May 2020 *as well* as the new 0941, but I don't see any extra stock making that up so I suspect we'll get the new 0941 or the ECS, not both!

Waterbeach and Littleport platforms should be lengthend to 8-car by May, I believe.

It was supposed to be December, but at the time I queried why it couldn't be done by May. I've not been through Littleport recently, but if they've progressed in a similar way to Waterbeach then I don't see why it wouldn't be ready for May. At Waterbeach the Up platform looks almost done, and the Down not far behind. I appreciate there are other things that need to be moved around to finish the job, but I'm guessing they could use the 3-day scheduled closure over Easter to finish that off.

I see another positive in this timetable, which (mostly) deals with something else I've complained about since May 2018. For much of the off-peak - and all day on Saturdays - they've managed to tweak the order of the XC Birmingham-Stansted and the GN 'fast' ELY-KGX so that the GN can leave Ely *after* the XC, and thus no longer need the tediously long wait at Cambridge these GN trains currently have. We finally get back to some trains doing ELY-KGX in 70 minutes!

 

[CptCharlee]

Crosscountry are in. No changes.

 

[Ianno87]

I’ve had a look at some of the other GN services. From a very cursory glance through I’ve noticed the following:


2) All the AM peak up Baldock to KX 365 services now call at Finsbury Park (I do wonder what if any operational logic there is to this, as one nice feature of the current timetable is pretty much everything through Finsbury Park platform 4 is non-stop, which must make life a lot easier for the signallers).

Looks like they're generally re-platformed into Platform 9, probably as a knock-on consequence of no Platform 0.

This means having a minute or two added to follow the 2Cxx on the Slows, which has been added as a stop instead of just pathing time (as the train would probably come to a stand at Holloway in practice anyway waiting for the 2C to go first)

3) The single morning Brighton/Royston and return service will run through to Cambridge.

Hooray! The lack of an 0824 ex-Cambridge has occasionally been annoying