May 2020 timetable changes

[bramling]

Personally I would like to know what is happening with the Great northern timetable changes. Is there a total revamp?

GENERAL

~ Minor retimings across the board, in particular much pathing time has been removed which is no doubt partly a consequence of the 313 demise. Of course the flip side of this coin is that this pathing time doubled up as recovery time, which is now not there, so will mean delays don't quite so readily recover themselves naturally.
~ King's Cross Platform 0 out of use, leading to re-platform at King's Cross and some tighter turnrounds particular for services which arrive ECS.
~ Moorgate back in evening use, with various minor changes to routings undone in consequence

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

GREAT NORTHERN

~ All morning peak Baldock to King's Cross services call additionally at Finsbury Park
~ 1R58 1957 King's Cross to Baldock moves to 1954 and calls additionally at Welwyn North
~ 1R62 2054 King's Cross to Baldock calls additionally at Welwyn North
~ 1R66 2154 King's Cross to Letchworth Garden City extended to Baldock and calls additionally at Welwyn North
~ 1P07 0704 Peterborough to King's Cross changes from 3x365 to 3x387
~ 1P09 0714 Peterborough to King's Cross changes from 3x387 to 3x365
~ Two morning peak Peterborough to King's Cross services no longer cross over at Cadwell, whilst 1P53 1942 Peterborough to King's Cross does
~ A new 1P80 0736 King's Cross to Peterborough service fast to St Neots formed of 2x365
~ Three additional morning services bringing attachment carriages to Cambridge, one from Cambridge North and two from Ely
~ 1T17 0942 King's Cross to Ely increases from 2x387 to 3x387
~ 1T46 1639 King's Cross to Kings Lynn will now be 12 carriages from King's Cross front four carriages will now be to Ely and rear eight carriages to Kings Lynn, incoming service 1T39 also 12 carriages from Cambridge.

INNERS
~ All Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone services extended to Stevenage platform 5.
~ Minor retimings across the board although the basic structure of the service remains the same.
~ Many changes to stopping patterns, with many services having stops added or removed.
~ Reversing of Welwyn to Moorgate services via Welwyn Garden City platform 1 is discontinued.
~ 2F54 2040 Moorgate to Hertford North extended to Stevenage with corresponding return service starting from there.

THAMESLINK

~ 1C02 0533 King's Cross to Cambridge calls additionally at Ashwell & Morden
~ 9S00 0506 Brighton to Cambridge calls additionally at Ashwell & Morden
~ 9S52 1812 Brighton to Cambridge calls additionally at Ashwell & Morden
~ The morning Brighton/Royston/Brighton service now runs through to Cambridge
~ King's Cross to Cambridge stopping service will now depart King's Cross at XX22 & XX52
~ 2C17 0826 Cambridge to King's Cross omits Ashwell & Morden and Baldock
~ 2Y09 0602 Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross changes from 700/0 to 1x717
~ A new 2Y12 0937 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City service formed of 700/0
~ 2R33 1256 Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross runs 4 minutes later to Knebworth
~ 2Y98 0140 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City changes from 700/0 to 1x717

SATURDAYS

~ Cambridge to Brighton goes half-hourly through most of the day formed of 700/1, associated with this is a new 1C04 0603 KX to Cambridge.
~ 1C76 0032 KX to Cambridge runs 1 minute later and changes from 1x387 to 700/0.
~ 2R72 0024 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 2x387.

SUNDAYS

~ The hourly Cambridge - Gatwick Airport service is extended to Brighton except for one trip at the start and end of service.
~ 2R42 1632 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 1x387, and 2R46 1732 KX to Letchworth changes from 1x387 to 700/0.

 

[GTR fail]

GENERAL

~ Minor retimings across the board, in particular much pathing time has been removed which is no doubt partly a consequence of the 313 demise. Of course the flip side of this coin is that this pathing time doubled up as recovery time, which is now not there, so will mean delays don't quite so readily recover themselves naturally.
~ King's Cross Platform 0 out of use, leading to re-platform at King's Cross and some tighter turnrounds particular for services which arrive ECS.
~ Moorgate back in evening use, with various minor changes to routings undone in consequence

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

GREAT NORTHERN

~ All morning peak Baldock to King's Cross services call additionally at Finsbury Park
~ 1R58 1957 King's Cross to Baldock moves to 1954 and calls additionally at Welwyn North
~ 1R62 2054 King's Cross to Baldock calls additionally at Welwyn North
~ 1R66 2154 King's Cross to Letchworth Garden City extended to Baldock and calls additionally at Welwyn North
~ 1P07 0704 Peterborough to King's Cross changes from 3x365 to 3x387
~ 1P09 0714 Peterborough to King's Cross changes from 3x387 to 3x365
~ Two morning peak Peterborough to King's Cross services no longer cross over at Cadwell, whilst 1P53 1942 Peterborough to King's Cross does
~ A new 1P80 0736 King's Cross to Peterborough service fast to St Neots formed of 2x365
~ Three additional morning services bringing attachment carriages to Cambridge, one from Cambridge North and two from Ely
~ 0942 King's Cross to Ely increases from 2x387 to 3x387
~ 1012 King's Cross to Kings Lynn decreases from 3x387 to 2x387
~ 1T46 1639 King's Cross to Kings Lynn front four carriages will now be to Ely and rear four carriages to Kings Lynn

INNERS
~ All Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone services extended to Stevenage platform 5.
~ Minor retimings across the board although the basic structure of the service remains the same.
~ Many changes to stopping patterns, with many services having stops added or removed.
~ Reversing of Welwyn to Moorgate services via Welwyn Garden City platform 1 is discontinued.
~ 2F54 2040 Moorgate to Hertford North extended to Stevenage with corresponding return service starting from there.

THAMESLINK

~ 1C02 0533 King's Cross to Cambridge calls additionally at Ashwell & Morden
~ 9S00 0506 Brighton to Cambridge calls additionally at Ashwell & Morden
~ 9S52 1812 Brighton to Cambridge calls additionally at Ashwell & Morden
~ The morning Brighton/Royston/Brighton service now runs through to Cambridge
~ King's Cross to Cambridge stopping service will now depart King's Cross at XX22 & XX52
~ 2C17 0826 Cambridge to King's Cross omits Ashwell & Morden and Baldock
~ 2Y09 0602 Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross changes from 700/0 to 1x717
~ A new 2Y12 0937 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City service formed of 700/0
~ 2R33 1256 Letchworth Garden City to King's Cross runs 4 minutes later to Knebworth
~ 2Y98 0140 King's Cross to Welwyn Garden City changes from 700/0 to 1x717

SATURDAYS

~ Cambridge to Brighton goes half-hourly through most of the day formed of 700/1, associated with this is a new 1C04 0603 KX to Cambridge.
~ 1C76 0032 KX to Cambridge runs 1 minute later and changes from 1x387 to 700/0.
~ 2R72 0024 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 2x387.

SUNDAYS

~ The hourly Cambridge - Gatwick Airport service is extended to Brighton except for one trip at the start and end of service.
~ 2R42 1632 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 1x387, and 2R46 1732 KX to Letchworth changes from 1x387 to 700/0.

Thank you that is very useful. You don’t by chance know anything about the December 2020 changes?

 

[387star]

Will Horsham to Peterborough still not run on Sundays?

 

[bramling]

Thank you that is very useful. You don’t by chance know anything about the December 2020 changes?

Not yet. It’s possible, perhaps even likely, Welwyn to Sevenoaks will start, and maybe a Sunday Horsham to Peterborough service. I wouldn’t expect much other change. There’s scope to add a few peak-time class 717 services as they could easily squeeze an extra diagram out of the fleet, but when this happens is at the moment anyone’s guess. If so it’s presumably likely to be extra peak Gordon Hill services.

The current timetable is largely set in stone for the foreseeable future, the bigger changes on the route will be to LNER.

There are rumours that the peak Baldock services aren’t fully secure, but I’m not convinced about this as they seem to feature in long-term documentation, and politically I don’t think it would be easy to remove them. Again time will tell.

 

[Minstral25]

Will Horsham to Peterborough still not run on Sundays?

Plan is from Dec 2020 - linking up the two routes

 

[irfquake123]

Hi All
Any expected changes for SWR? Or given the franchising issues, no plans?

Thanks

 

[Aictos]

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

GREAT NORTHERN

~ 1T46 1639 King's Cross to Kings Lynn front four carriages will now be to Ely and rear four carriages to Kings Lynn

INNERS

~ Reversing of Welwyn to Moorgate services via Welwyn Garden City platform 1 is discontinued.

Real Train Times says quite clearly that 1T46 16:39 Kings Cross to Ely splits at CAMBRIDGE with the rear portion forming 1T96 17:43 Cambridge to Kings Lynn

Just to make your post more clearer.

As to Welwyn GC, why’s that?

 

[Muzer]

Hi All
Any expected changes for SWR? Or given the franchising issues, no plans?

Thanks

I've had a quick look, basically lots of very minor retimings. Also some early-morning modifications - the Totton to Romsey remnant of the pre-Salisbury 6 days is gone and replaced with another Salisbury starter, meanwhile to compensate one of the morning 442 workings now calls at Totton.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi All
Any expected changes for SWR? Or given the franchising issues, no plans?

Thanks

You can generate a comparison here:
https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/?q=SW&s=mf&v=c
If you ask for minutes with changes only, you’ll see there’s quite a few hours of the day with no changes at all.

Many changes are just moving a service a minute or two either way.

Found a destination swap
1939 Waterloo to Fareham becomes 1948
1948 Waterloo to Poole becomes 1939
I think that just puts the Poole back in its normal Offpeak slot?

 

[swt_passenger]

I've had a quick look, basically lots of very minor retimings. Also some early-morning modifications - the Totton to Romsey remnant of the pre-Salisbury 6 days is gone and replaced with another Salisbury starter, meanwhile to compensate one of the morning 442 workings now calls at Totton.

That’s a result. We discussed that very change a while back, I did think the Totton starter was a bit of an oddity once it wasn’t running ECS from Fratton.

PS It was last July - I’d found it should have become a Romsey starter in one of the draft timetables, the Totton call went in a Poole to Waterloo, probably the one you’ve found.

PPS - it also seems to mean it’ll not be possible to do an up direction Totton to Redbridge or Millbrook direct journey?

 

[BrianW]

I'm seeing this in a different light today.
1. I don't expect to be undertaking 'discretionary' journeys any time soon, sadly.
2. The very reduced number of people traveling right now suggests new reduced timetables, possibly based on the current timetable with reduced frequencies (halved?), which could be introduced 'until further notice'.
3. That would 'buy time' (which looks like it's already needed?) to deal with the current situation.
4. Staff are in the frontline (even in the back-office!) and deserve thanks for being there (maybe a few might be working from home).
5. I wondered why the Summer 2018 timetable went ahead when so many 'issues' (shortage of route-and train-qualified staff, and timetablers) were known weeks ahead. I think a certain caution would be accepted just now.
6. We need to be told, including when we might be told if not now, even if that still needs to change. It's the 'not knowing' that irks people, as is seen so often, and well-known.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I'm seeing this in a different light today.
1. I don't expect to be undertaking 'discretionary' journeys any time soon, sadly.
2. The very reduced number of people traveling right now suggests new reduced timetables, possibly based on the current timetable with reduced frequencies (halved?), which could be introduced 'until further notice'.
3. That would 'buy time' (which looks like it's already needed?) to deal with the current situation.
4. Staff are in the frontline (even in the back-office!) and deserve thanks for being there (maybe a few might be working from home).
5. I wondered why the Summer 2018 timetable went ahead when so many 'issues' (shortage of route-and train-qualified staff, and timetablers) were known weeks ahead. I think a certain caution would be accepted just now.
6. We need to be told, including when we might be told if not now, even if that still needs to change. It's the 'not knowing' that irks people, as is seen so often, and well-known.

I was thinking a reduced timetable for the May 2020 timetable will be happening as well - it would seem a very sensible idea.

 

[VT 390]

I was thinking a reduced timetable for the May 2020 timetable will be happening as well - it would seem a very sensible idea.

Would a reduced timetable for the actual timetable change be a good idea as it will have to last until December and I would have thought by then most of the passenger numbers would be back to normal?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Would a reduced timetable for the actual timetable change be a good idea as it will have to last until December and I would have thought by then most of the passenger numbers would be back to normal?

Good point there.

 

[Glenn1969]

Nobody has any idea when things will go back to normal. I can see it being 2021 before we completely get rid of the virus

 

[JonathanH]

Nobody has any idea when things will go back to normal. I can see it being 2021 before we completely get rid of the virus

Yes, it will be interesting to see whether, in places where a timetable change was expected in May 2020 (or indeed December 2020), the services will be an emergency timetable based on the current timetable or an emergency timetable based on the new timetable.

 

[cactustwirly]

Would a reduced timetable for the actual timetable change be a good idea as it will have to last until December and I would have thought by then most of the passenger numbers would be back to normal?

No one knows, but I seriously doubt passenger numbers would be back, especially as there could be a huge global recession in the back of this pandemic.
Passenger numbers could take a long time to recover.

 

[plugwash]

Nobody has any idea when things will go back to normal. I can see it being 2021 before we completely get rid of the virus

My suspicion is that while vaccines, treatments and tests may allow better management, we will never completely get rid of it.

 

[VT 390]

No one knows, but I seriously doubt passenger numbers would be back, especially as there could be a huge global recession in the back of this pandemic.
Passenger numbers could take a long time to recover.

Whelst passenger may take a long time to recover I wouldn't think that any emergency timetable would continue beyond around September time (with current predictions) so while it may take a long time for full passenger numbers to increase by the autumn this year I expect the numbers will be up from the present time and at the very least the normal first and last trains should be operated as things will be getting back to normal even if they are not all the way there by then.

Is there any way that they could completely cancel the May 2020 timetable change and just keep the existing timetables (and emergency ones for as long as needed)?

 

[BrianW]

I'm with you VT390. Methinks that's what should have happened in May 2018. It seemed to me then that folk just couldn't tell Mr Grayling that- there's a known tendency not to tell truth to power- the messenger gets shot.
So, 'this emergency timetable will apply until further notice'; we regret ... we will issue updates on our website (weekly?). I think people will understand and however reluctantly or angrily accept that.

 

[The Planner]

Is there any way that they could completely cancel the May 2020 timetable change and just keep the existing timetables (and emergency ones for as long as needed)?

It would probably take more work to do that than to have an agreed STP emergency plan that is rolled over every week with any required tweaks.

 

[Mathew S]

It would probably take more work to do that than to have an agreed STP emergency plan that is rolled over every week with any required tweaks.

Especially, presumably, once the planners themselves start going off sick/self-isolating. I mean, it can't make the whole process any simpler when you're trying to do it with ~20% fewer staff.

 

[hwl]

I'm with you VT390. Methinks that's what should have happened in May 2018. It seemed to me then that folk just couldn't tell Mr Grayling that- there's a known tendency not to tell truth to power- the messenger gets shot.
So, 'this emergency timetable will apply until further notice'; we regret ... we will issue updates on our website (weekly?). I think people will understand and however reluctantly or angrily accept that.

Going back in 2018 to the old TT wasn't an option for most TOCs in May 2018

 

[BrianW]

hwl- thank you; can you give some idea why. I'm new to this.

 

[Ianno87]

Going back in 2018 to the old TT wasn't an option for most TOCs in May 2018

hwl- thank you; can you give some idea why. I'm new to this.

In Northern's case, they were too intertwined with other operators changes to simply roll theirs over.

GTR's issues with traincrew rostering were simply discovered far too late in the day. The principle of the timetable structure was, of course, fundamentally sound and why it now generally performs so superbly.

 

[BrianW]

GTR's issues with traincrew rostering were simply discovered far too late in the day.

... and why was that? Too timid to tell Mr Grayling?
I agree very much about the objective, and am looking forward to more thinking and investment of that kind.

 

[Ianno87]

... and why was that? Too timid to tell Mr Grayling?
I agree very much about the objective, and am looking forward to more thinking and investment of that kind.

There was nothing he could have done about it by then. Though it didn't help in the first place with DfT instructing a change to the service specification at a relatively late stage requiring rework beyond the usual timescales (but deemed to be OK so long as everything then went perfectly...)

 

[hwl]

In Northern's case, they were too intertwined with other operators changes to simply roll theirs over.

GTR's issues with traincrew rostering were simply discovered far too late in the day. The principle of the timetable structure was, of course, fundamentally sound and why it now generally performs so superbly.

Completely agree - The southern changes were long over due.

 

[norbitonflyer]

They could provide a service between Dalmeny and, say, Stirling with passengers changing for QS at linlithgow. Would be quicker, might provide a path for an extra peak service E-G, and even satisfy those who lost their through linlithgow to Stirling service. Certainly timetabling the existing services is awkward.

Using the facility someone provided in post 135, I see there is now a 0654 in the new timetable from Kirkaldy (2K40) arriving Dalmeny at 0722 and not continuing to Edinburgh. I can't see where it goes next though. Nor can I find a corresponding evening service.

http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/May20/timetable.php?table=42

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Using the facility someone provided in post 135, I see there is now a 0654 in the new timetable from Kirkaldy (2K40) arriving Dalmeny at 0722 and not continuing to Edinburgh. I can't see where it goes next though. Nor can I find a corresponding evening service.

http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/May20/timetable.php?table=42

It terminates at Haymarket, but because the Haymarket row is showing departure times only, it hasn't generated a time here.
Realtimetrains will tell you that if you do a search for Dalmeny trains at 0722 on any weekday from 18 May 2020 onwards.