maybe a daft question - how does a TOC pay for overhead electricity used ?

[Scooby]

This may be a bone stupid question, but its piqued my curiousity.

How does a TOC pay for the electricty that it drws from overhead cables ?

I'm thinking of it in this context.
Scooby trains runs a Voyager Service from Birmingham to Glasgow. I know that the Voyager uses (say) 5 gallons of fuel per mile, so over the aprox 290 miles I know that my fuel costs are going to be 1450 gals of diesel.
But my mate has offered me his spare Pendolino and he tells me that I'll save a fortune by using the 'leccy rather than dead dinosoars.

Can anyone enlighten me ? Does the driver have a large stack of £1 copins to keep feeding the 'leccy meter, or is there another method used ?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Flat charge levied by NR.

 

[swt_passenger]

They are moving quite quickly towards on train metering basically by calibrating the existing onboard electronics to provide the necessary data. The Pendolino fleet is already on the system I believe.

This is being gradually rolled out over the whole electrified network, AC and DC, as recently built and older trains are suitably modified.

 

[WatcherZero]

NR charges a flat fee per mile calculated by class alongside normal rail access charge, some onboard meters are coming in but like with your home meter water meter, your only going to use one if you think your getting a bad deal from the flat fee, if your using more than average your not going to request one.

 

[Barrett M95]

Speaking from SNCF point of view: there is a flat rate charged that is quite high unless the rolling stock in question has an energy meter fitted. In which case it is "pay as you go" - sort of. Basically you pay for what you use.

An energy meter is a device about the size of a VCB,weighing between 50 and 90kg depending on design. It is mounted usually on the roof next to (and electrically immediately after) the pantograph and next to the VCB. It monitors, via the use of a small built-in transformer and some solid-state witchcraft (that some sparky will explain better than me), the acutal energy consumption of the whole train. The data is collected, tabulated and sent to the energy provider/infrastructure department (depending on how your railway is organised) and the appropriate charges are made.

 

[swt_passenger]

An energy meter is a device about the size of a VCB,weighing between 50 and 90kg depending on design. It is mounted usually on the roof next to (and electrically immediately after) the pantograph and next to the VCB. It monitors, via the use of a small built-in transformer and some solid-state witchcraft (that some sparky will explain better than me), the acutal energy consumption of the whole train.

For anyone into details, there is some interesting technical stuff online about the Pendolino system, it generally uses the existing TMS, and only 390049 is fitted with a separate metering system for comparison purposes. Presumably they asssume they all work the same way, so 049's meter can be used to apply corrections to the whole fleet's measurements if necessary:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/2%20completed%20consultations/2010/2010.06.11%20west%20coast%20trains%209th%20sa%20-%20consultation%20closed%2007%20july%202010/vt-ec4t-390%20technical%20file%20issue%201b.pdf

 

[Barrett M95]

Attached is the location (green arrow) of the Faiveley energy meter concept installation on Thalys TGV roof.

 

[Schnellzug]

this brings to mind other interesting questions; how does modern rolling stock (which seems to usually be a lot heavier than older ones) compare for energy consumption than older ones? how does a Pendo compare with an 87 or 90? And in terms of cost, is electric traction more economical over a given distance than Diesels? (And there are other questions that spin off from that about Carbon emissions from Diesels compared with power stations, and so on.) These are all Interesting questions.

 

[WatcherZero]

Trains have been getting progressivley heavier for the last 30 years due to higher safety standards and more comforts like air conditioning, however that trend is starting to go into reverse and for the next decade or two they will get progressivley lighter again due to new lightweight materials being used.

Power consumption for traction has fallen due to more efficent equipment (electronics and chips replacing huge silicon circuit boards) and motors have got more energy efficent. However trains have also gotten faster (energy use increases exponentially the faster your going) also provision of sockets and air conditioning can mean over a quarter of the power on a modern train is being used by the passengers for creature comforts.

 

[fsmr]

not much incentive to the TOCs then to save energy if they are on a fixed rate then

 

[NightatLaira]

But I'm presuming that Electric is basically cheaper than diesel:

Some rough calculations:

BHM-GLA = roughly 290miles
1450 gallons of red diesel = roughly 67p/litre,= roughly £3/gallon.
implies £483.33 for the journey

Hang on, can a Super Voyager REALLY only cost £500 to drive from Birmingham to Scotland????

That's quite cheap! It would cost £50 in your average economical diesel car on normal 'taxed diesel', and you'd need quite a few more than 10 cars to take one Super Voyager's load of people north!

So how much would the same journey in a Pendo cost in KwH/£££s?

 

[WatcherZero]

0.67p x 4.55 (litres in a Gallon) x 1450, £4420.
Thats if it used all fuel aboard.

A 11 car pendo, 5.1mw, electricity price of 12p a kwh, assuming maximum power was being drawn for all 4 hours of a journey (would in reality be far less when below max speed or at stations) £2448.

Very rough back of fag packet equations so I could be totally wrong.



Edit additional, 5 car class 221, 5 750hp QSK19 engines which Cummins lists fuel consumption as 142.3 litres per hour, 4 hours consumes 1906 litres for 5 coaches.
Pretend its in an 11 coach formation to match a Pendo, 6261 litres, £4195.

Edit 2: Pendo output changed from 6.5MW maximum available to 5.1MW, 'power at wheels', use the former if you want to include the potential for all the lights and sockets to be in use while its doing 125mph for 4 straight hours 0.o

 

[Eagle]

...use the former if you want to include the potential for all the lights and sockets to be in use while its doing 125mph for 4 straight hours 0.o

Or if everyone brings a microwave... :roll:

 

[millemille]

Operators pay for electricity through the EC4T element of the track access charge for each type of stock they run and how many miles it does.

It is currently charged on an estimated basis, with set percentage reductions if your fleet is capable of regenerative braking.

Many TOC's are working with energy meters but the results so far have been far from conclusive and raise as many questions as they answer with regards to how to charge on actual power consumed basis.