Maybe Trivia - "No Refuges" Question

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O L Leigh

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There is a tunnel mouth on my route card that has a blue/white chequer "No Refuges" board on both sides. Surely if there are no refuges on either side this becomes a limited clearance and should be signed as such with red/white chequer "Limited Clearance" boards.

Thoughts...?
 
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coxxy

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Lots of examples of lazy signage around the network unfortunately
 

TheEdge

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There is a tunnel mouth on my route card that has a blue/white chequer "No Refuges" board on both sides. Surely if there are no refuges on either side this becomes a limited clearance and should be signed as such with red/white chequer "Limited Clearance" boards.

Thoughts...?

We've got a few structures signed like that and I've asked the question and got a noncommittal answer. I even know of one location where a structure had both No Refuges and Limited Clearance mounted above each other.
 

cosmo

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There is a tunnel mouth on my route card that has a blue/white chequer "No Refuges" board on both sides. Surely if there are no refuges on either side this becomes a limited clearance and should be signed as such with red/white chequer "Limited Clearance" boards.

Thoughts...?

I can see your logic, but I think these blue/white boards don't mean exactly the same thing.

Do correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't believe "limited clearance" specifically excludes the presence of refuges in a given lineside area - rather, it refers to the fact that lineside clearance is, in fact, limited - and there may be refuges in the zone marked by red/white signs, but the overall clearance is limited compared to a non-signed area of track. A good example of an area of limited clearance where refuges are provided is a railway tunnel.

The blue/white "No refuges" areas I believe are areas of limited clearance which have no refuges whatsoever. The specific difference between these two is for lineside workers - obviously, areas without refuges would require more in the way of safety precautions, whereas where refuges are provided, one could get out the way of an approaching train easier.

Again, don't quote me on any of this, but this specific difference - while minor - is a critical piece of information for any lineside workers who might be out on the track for whatever reason. There's some BR-era training videos on YouTube that might help to explain further.
 

TheEdge

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@cosmo no, you've got them mixed up.

Limited Clearance (the red and white sign) means that there are no positions of safety (that is a location more than 1.25m/2m depending on linespeed) for the entire length of that structure on either side. The No Refuges sign (blue and white) means there are no positions of safety on this side (the side the sign is on) of the structure but there may be on the other side.

So logically it would make sense that if a structure is marked up as No Refuges on both sides it should be Limited Clearance.
 

driver9000

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Shouldn't it have Prohibition boards if there are no positions of safety?
 

O L Leigh

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Do correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't believe "limited clearance" specifically excludes the presence of refuges in a given lineside area - rather, it refers to the fact that lineside clearance is, in fact, limited - and there may be refuges in the zone marked by red/white signs, but the overall clearance is limited compared to a non-signed area of track. A good example of an area of limited clearance where refuges are provided is a railway tunnel.

No, not so. Limited clearance boards mean that there is no position of safety for the length of the structure. If there were refuges inside the tunnel walls this would mean that there are positions of safety within the length of the structure making the use of such a sign incorrect. Tunnels with refuges are not boarded as either limited clearance or no refuges at their entrances.
 

TheEdge

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Shouldn't it have Prohibition boards if there are no positions of safety?

No because a prohibition board means you can never pass except in an emergency. Limited Clearance you can walk the structure with care if you need to
 

Magicake

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If there are no refuges on either side then it should have either:
- Limited clearance signs if the tunnel is short enough that it can be passed under red zone working
- Prohibition boards if it is too long to be passed when trains are running except in emergency

Blue 'no refuges' signs are incorrect if there are no refuges on either side.
 

cosmo

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@cosmo no, you've got them mixed up.

Limited Clearance (the red and white sign) means that there are no positions of safety (that is a location more than 1.25m/2m depending on linespeed) for the entire length of that structure on either side. The No Refuges sign (blue and white) means there are no positions of safety on this side (the side the sign is on) of the structure but there may be on the other side.

So logically it would make sense that if a structure is marked up as No Refuges on both sides it should be Limited Clearance.
Huh, guess I've had it backwards for a while then. The more you know, etc!
 
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Each sign is or can be placed on one or both sides of a structure that can limit egresses from the railway. ie on a bridge, on a tunnel mouth, over bridge adutment or on a building that is alongside the line.

Going by what the OP has said it does sound like the No Refuge signs should indeed to replaced with Limited Clearance signs, however having said that I do not know if the area within the tunnel has Limited lineside clearance. I would take that to mean there are no refuges but the clearance is not limited.

What the No Refuge sign means is there is no refuge on the side of the tunnel the sign is on but there is on the other.
But if there is a sign on both sides on the tunnel mount then it is indeed an incorrect use of the sign as there is no refuge on the other. But that doesnt mean the tunnnel has Limited Clearance. The tunnel portal could be wide enough for 4 roads, with only 2 running down the center.

The point I am making is just because its wrong, or might be wrong in this case it doesnt mean it is Limited Clearance beyond a doubt.
 

O L Leigh

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I think that the name of the sign may be slightly misleading. My understanding of the rules is that a “No Refuges” sign means that there is no position of safety on the side the board is placed rather than a more literal interpretation meaning that there are no refuges provided within the tunnel walls (or whatever the equivalent would be on a different type of structure).
 
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Sort of yes.
The original idea was to put them on 100mph+ lines where a position of safety is 2m away from the running line. In that case the idea was to show that while there is no need to have a limited clearance sign there is nowhere that places you a position of safety... 2m from the running line.
 

ComUtoR

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2.1.5 Provision of warning signs – ‘Limited Clearance’
2.1.5.1 IMs shall provide ‘Limited Clearance’ signs where a position of safety is interrupted for a distance of more than 2m, and the criteria for ‘No Refuges’ or ‘Prohibition’warning signs in 2.1.6 and 2.1.7 are not applicable.

Rationale
G 2.1.5.2 ‘Limited Clearance’ signs warn staff that the position of safety is interrupted by an obstruction and that there is no safe access to the designated area whilst trains are running.


2.1.6 Provision of warning signs – ‘No Refuges’
2.1.6.1 IMs shall provide ‘No Refuges’ warning signs at locations meeting the following criteria: a) Where positions of safety or refuges are not provided at least every 20 m along the side of the running line in question. b) Where positions of safety or refuges are provided at least every 20 m along the opposite side of the running lines. c) Where the criteria for ‘Prohibition’ warning signs in 2.1.7 are not applicable.

Rationale
G 2.1.6.2 ‘No Refuges’ signs warn staff that the position of safety is interrupted by anobstruction on one side of the running line, and therefore there is no safe access to the designated area on that side of the line whilst trains are running. These signs positively confirm that a position of safety is available on the opposite side of the line.


Taken from the current RIS document.
 
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