Meaning of Regulation 9(6) Penalty Fare Regulations 2018

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by County School, 3 Jun 2019.

  1. County School

    County School Member

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    Mod Note: Posts #1 - #10 originally in this thread.

    I think you have all misunderstood regulation 9(6).

    A Standard Anytime Day Single is valid for use on a Sunday (whereas a First Anytime Day Single is not a valid ticket in a standard class carriage https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46544.aspx). It is a more expensive ticket than a Super Off Peak Single and so it is the full single fare applicable.
     
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  3. 35B

    35B Member

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    So how does that meet the requirements of 9(6)(b), which makes specific reference to the time of the journey?
     
  4. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    (The class of travel is a red herring.) To summarise, the problem for the rail company is this:

    If a train company has a policy always to charge the Anytime Day Single regardless of the day and time of the journey, in what way can it demonstrate that it has complied with the regulations by making reference to the day and time of the journey when determining "the full single fare applicable" as the regulations require? "Full" is taking its natural meaning, namely that discounts such as railcards cannot be applied. The regulations do not say the "most expensive" valid fare is to be used, or a fare that would also be valid on other trains (ref. (c)) - rather, everything points towards the "normal" fare (see O.E.D. definition) i.e. that which typical passengers would pay on the specific train.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2019
  5. County School

    County School Member

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    Yes in a sense it is.



    The train company cannot have a policy about the level of a penalty fare. That is set by law. The train company can only have a policy about whether to impose a penalty fare.

    The full single fare is not the single fare which typical passengers would pay; it is the fare from which all other fares are discounted.

    The reference to the date and time covers the situation where (as there have been in the past and may be in the future) there are services with no "catch any train" universally valid ticket e.g if the Night Riviera stops selling sleeper supplements and only sells differentiallty priced inclusive fares.
     
  6. County School

    County School Member

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    Because the Anytime Single is valid for travel on a Sunday. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't count.
     
  7. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    And where - in law - is that defined in that way? In what legal sense are "all other fares discounted"? The regulations do not define it as a "catch any train" universally valid ticket - they could have done, but they simply don't. They also specifically say the train used has to be taken into account - which a "catch any train" interpretation would also not do.
     
  8. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    The Super-Off Peak (say) is also valid for travel on a Sunday and is the "full" (i.e. normal, undiscounted) fare for that service at that time on that day.

    We have two words here: "full" and "applicable". Neither is defined explicitly in those regulations so the question may be: How would a court interpret "the full single fare applicable"? - And perhaps it will need a court to answer that.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2019
  9. County School

    County School Member

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    A court may have to answer it but I am afraid the answer is inevitable which is why three levels of appeals bodies haven't really understood the OP's point. Penalty fares go back to the British Rail Penalty Fares Act 1989. Here is the House of Lords second reading on the Bill and their lordships are unanimous in their interpretation of the expression.

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords...e76718a53/BritishRailways(PenaltyFares)BillHl

    I think your mistake is conflating "full" with "normal". Of course, the Super Off Peak is discounted. It is cheaper than the Anytime Return.
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2019
  10. Realfish

    Realfish Member

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    The super off peak fare is not discounted, it is the fare applicable on the date an time of travel. The discounts that must not be applied are those in respect of railcards.

    At risk of going around in circles the regulations set out in Statutory Instrument 2018 / 366 - The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, in force from 6th April 2018 are quite specific and in my mind are not even arguable. They state;

    (6) In this regulation “the full single fare applicable” is to be determined by reference to—

    (a)the age of the person in question;
    (i.e is the fare due appropriate to an adult or a 'child'?)

    (b)the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make, as the case may be;
    (what is the fare payable for the particular service at the particular time on which the passenger is travelling? Peak (anytime) off peak, super off peak etc. If the travel is at a weekend the appropriate walk up fare that a passenger would pay at a booking office window for that journey is the fare that is the reference point for the PF charge)

    and

    (c)the train and route that person is using, has used or intends to use.
    (i.e on a journey from, say, Lichfield TV to London, are they travelling direct on VTWC? are they travelling direct on a LNW service?, are they traveling (more expensively) via Birmingham? Each route and service has a different level of fare due for the train used. This regulation requires that that should be applied - not the blanket anytime / all available routes fare)

    The appeals panels, it appears, have misinformed themselves.
     
  11. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    I think the train companies may be clinging to some old definition of "full" that was assumed but never documented, and which, on the face of it, has been superseded by the improved and more precise definition provided in the new regulations, which is better aligned to the complex fares system of today's railway.

    We're dealing with the situation today based on interpreting the current regulations, not how it was being imagined in 1988 - and that debate was even before the single fare got doubled so cannot really resolve this point:

    The SRA also imposed its own views, but that was all swept away, leaving only these new regulations.
     
  12. County School

    County School Member

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    It is clear that an Anytime Day Single is a valid ticket for a Sunday journey. If a passenger proffers an Anytime Single, the guard will not reply "I am sorry this isn't a valid ticket". It is therefore an applicable fare.
    It is also clear that a Super Off Peak Day Single is a valid ticket for a Sunday journey. It is also an applicable fare.

    The Regulations by referring to "the" full single fare applicable implies that there is only one "single fare applicable" that is "full".

    To suggest that there is an applicable fare greater than the full fare defies the English language.
     
  13. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    The train companies increasingly offer for sale multiple fares for any particular journey - different fares having different time restrictions. (Arguably they should not be selling Anytime Day Singles for use on trains where a Super Off-Peak Day Single is valid with no break-of-journey restrictions - in these circumstances the passenger has been overcharged and should be refunded the difference - but that's a different debate.)

    So taking this line of argument as we are today, there is more than one "full" walk-up fare that is not discounted with a railcard etc. Of those, only one is "applicable" - the one that a walk-up passenger would actually be sold to travel on that particular service.

    Of the full single fares on offer, the one that is applicable is determined:

     
  14. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    To vary the question, which fare do you take when there are two Anytime Singles valid - ANY PERMITTED and a cheaper routed one? This argument is basically redefining "full" as meaning "most expensive" whereas, as I quoted earlier, the O.E.D. opts for "normal":
    and the normal price people pay is the cheapest valid option, not the most expensive valid option.
     

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