Meeting due over Tube safety row - Northern Line

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dave A

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
1,161
Meeting due over Tube safety row

Taken from - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4319052.stm

Rail union bosses are due to meet London Underground (LU) officials on Friday in a continuing row over safety.

Emergency braking systems on Northern Line trains have failed, so LU has introduced daily safety checks and is putting an extra driver in each train.

The driver shortage has meant fewer trains in operation, leading to severe delays for passengers.

Roger Evans, Conservative London Assembly member, said news of faulty braking systems "beggars belief".

A spokesman for rail union RMT said drivers were exercising their legal right not to move trains if their safety is at risk.

'Get a grip'

He said the emergency braking system, designed to stop trains going through danger signals, had failed four times in as many weeks.

Roger Evans, chairman of the London Assembly Transport Committee, said : "This latest news on braking systems beggars belief considering the money that's being poured into the Underground system.

"Ken Livingstone (London Mayor) and Bob Kiley (London's Transport Commissioner) really have got to get a grip on London Underground and sort out these basic problems before the entire system grinds to a halt."

Under the Public Private Partnership (PPP) scheme, Tube Lines and Alstom are responsible for maintenance on the Northern Line.

A spokesman for LU said it had been pressing both firms to resolve the situation for several weeks and was now directing and overseeing the work of Tube Lines and Alstom.

"The fact that they have not resolved the situation is completely unacceptable," he said.

A spokesman for Tube Lines said its top priority was passengers' safety and every train was being checked before going into service.

Alternative routes


He added that Alstom's performance had not been good enough and Tube Lines would not rule anything out to resolve the situation, including terminating the contract.

Alstom would not comment on its contract, but said it had been working closely with LU and Tube Lines.

The cause of the faulty brakes has still not been established.

Northern Line passengers are being advised to take alternative routes while delays continue.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
It sounds like a problem with the trainstops to me. It's more likely to be those, as the signalling on the Northern is amongst the oldest on the system.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,954
Location
Yorkshire
By the same logic, should all bus drivers not drive buses? as there's more chance of a road traffic accident.

Or is this a case of double standards and/or an excuse for Bob Crowe and co to cause disruption?
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
yorkie said:
Or is this a case of double standards and/or an excuse for Bob Crowe and co to cause disruption?

If there's going to be second-manning until the problem is sorted, there's no reason for anyone to kick up a stink. The second-man would act as the trainstop, making an emergency brake application should the driver SPAD and fail to be tripped by a faulty trainstop.
 
T

Tom

Guest
Right, looked into this...

The signalling system is experiencing faults all the time due to the age of the system ... some signals are showing red but the trainstops are dropped into the green position. Also, on some trains, the tripcocks are faulty... in order to test that they work properly, almost every train is going to Morden and is being tripped by a permanent trainstop. All trains are tripped successfully with an emergency brake application however some fail to start the 10mph for 3 minutes system, some do start, but fail to reset, due to this, they do it at Morden so they can tip out and go into the depot for fixes. :)
 

TomCrame

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2005
Messages
32
I think it's best the record is put straight on this subject. The issue appears to be that the trains are either failing to become tripped or the tripcocks are resetting themselves. There is no question relating to the integrity of the trainstops or any other part of the signalling system.
 

TomCrame

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2005
Messages
32
I did do a dead late for the northern line double manning a few weeks ago, so I've got a rough idea what's going on. The fixed trainstops have two purposes, firstly to prove the tripcock does work at least once per trip and secondly that if it doesn't get tripped we know about it before entering a a terminal station.
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
Yes, this was on one of the newsgroups a while ago, it was quite clear on there that this was a rolling stock fault NOT a signalling system.
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
According to BBC London News, the problem was that the tripcock resetting cords were too big, and will now be replaced with thinner ones.

Yes, that's right. The Northern Line has been a major shambles for weeks due to something as simple as this, and the JNP lot at Golders Green have only just dicsovered the problem... :roll:
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
Seth said:
Yes, that's right. The Northern Line has been a major shambles for weeks due to something as simple as this, and the JNP lot at Golders Green have only just dicsovered the problem... :roll:

Well it's not *really* Tube Lines' fault, Alstom are responsible for the maintenance of the 95 fleet aren't they?
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
jd said:
Well it's not *really* Tube Lines' fault, Alstom are responsible for the maintenance of the 95 fleet aren't they?

It's Alstom's fault for using an oversized rope in the first place, but TubeLines are responsible for the day-to-day maintenance of the fleet.
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
Royalscot said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4335994.stm

An entire London Underground line has been shut down amid safety concerns.

Services on the Northern Line, which carries 660,400 people every weekday, have been suspended and may remain closed on Thursday.

I guess this proves that there must be another problem on top of the tripcock resetting cord issue. I can't work out how the cord itself could actually prevent a train from being tripped.
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
Seth said:
..but TubeLines are responsible for the day-to-day maintenance of the fleet.

I thought Tube Lines subcontract the maintenence to to Alstom?

BBC News said:
London Underground (LU) has used emergency powers to oversee remedial work by Tube Lines and its subcontractor Alstom.

:?
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
Well, I could be wrong. I assumed that the same arrangements would apply to the Northern which also apply to the Piccadilly, for example (both are TubeLines' responsibility).
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
Seth said:
Well, I could be wrong. I assumed that the same arrangements would apply to the Northern which also apply to the Piccadilly, for example (both are TubeLines' responsibility).
I *think* the situation on the Northern is probably more alike to the situation on the Jubilee, and I know from a Modern Railways article that 1996 stock is maintained by Alstom, subcontracted to them by TL.
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
jd said:
I *think* the situation on the Northern is probably more alike to the situation on the Jubilee, and I know from a Modern Railways article that 1996 stock is maintained by Alstom, subcontracted to them by TL.

Yeah, it makes sense to me now. The 95s & 96s are a similar build of train, and use completely different technology to the 73s. I'm guessing the Jubilee & Northern fleet's maintenance might be subcontracted for this reason, I.E. the technology is relatively new and different to most previous stocks, so it's probably easier for Alstom to maintain them rather than training JNP train maintainers on the newer technology (again, I could be wrong, but that seems like the most logical reason to me).
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
Yep, me too, thanks Seth.

Does anybody know if the 1996ts is also suffering from, or thought to be at risk of suffering from, the same problems? If so, are Jubilee trains also being double-manned?
 
T

Tom

Guest
The 96TS is of a similar external design, but due to the nature that it was ordered before the 95TS with various internal changes (such as the GTO/IGBT traction packages), it is not really affected. A cautionary check was made, but it hasn't affected them from what I have heard.
 

Dave A

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
1,161
Watching BBC London News tonight, I *think* they said that they were making "temporary" replacement cords! What good will that do? :roll:

Tube Lines have failed! Metronet Rail are doing a brilliant job, but Tube Lines seem to have regular problems on all 3 of there lines. I think this will be looked into by LU when its sorted as its got A LOT worse since they took over! :roll:
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
London Tube said:
Tube Lines have failed! Metronet Rail are doing a brilliant job, but Tube Lines seem to have regular problems on all 3 of there lines. I think this will be looked into by LU when its sorted as its got A LOT worse since they took over! :roll:

That's a bit harsh IMO. Regular problems on all three lines? Certainly not. The Picc never seems to have any problems, but then again they do have the best depot on the system. :D ;)
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
I have also noticed striking differences between TL and Metronet.

Tube Lines never seem to do any track replacement work, for example, whereas Metronet are doing loads. Metronet are also preparing for the arrival of new trains on the SSL and the Viccy. AND Metronet have to deal with the 92ts!

I don't think I'd describe Tube Lines as a failiure, but Metronet certainly seem a lot better than them.
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
London Underground has released another statement today, and they sound just a little bit pi**ed off!

London Underground statement said:
Following the suspension of the Northern line today, London Underground (LU) has issued the following statement.

A spokesperson for LU said: "London Underground is as frustrated with the suspension of the Northern line as our passengers.

"The situation is intolerable and is bound up in the complex PPP/PFI contracts.

"As soon as this problem arose, we demanded action from Tube Lines and Alstom.

"It is clear that maintenance of the Northern line train fleet was not being done to the correct standards.

As soon as this problem arose, we demanded action from Tube Lines and Alstom

Spokesperson for London Underground

"On Friday, after we were provided with just half the Northern line train fleet, we exercised our right to issue an Emergency Direction to Tube Lines, to direct and oversee maintenance.

"This is the first time such action has been taken under PPP.

The full statement can be found at:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=545
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,954
Location
Yorkshire
Why is it just about everyone, (except for the Tories and new Labour), can see that privatisation of the railways just does not work? :roll:
 

Dave A

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
1,161
PPP on the tube hasn't been that bad. Of course its not as great as it was, but Metronet do seem to have things "under control", since day 1. Tube Lines doesn't even look like its part of the LU! Look at the websites for a start, Metronet looks like part of the LU, part of the "community" , they give detailed info about each line and have a plan for the future. Tube Lines doesn't give any of that. It looks like what it is, a company with very little knowledge on the LU that thought it was need to put very little work and investment into the 3 lines! GET THEM OUT!

Anyway, it looks like the local bus routes are taking a lot of the passengers from Finchley to Arnos as buses this morning have been packed from 7am!
 

Met Driver

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
1,734
London Tube said:
PPP on the tube hasn't been that bad. Of course its not as great as it was, but Metronet do seem to have things "under control", since day 1. Tube Lines doesn't even look like its part of the LU! Look at the websites for a start, Metronet looks like part of the LU, part of the "community" , they give detailed info about each line and have a plan for the future. Tube Lines doesn't give any of that. It looks like what it is, a company with very little knowledge on the LU that thought it was need to put very little work and investment into the 3 lines! GET THEM OUT!

I think you've just demonstrated how little you know about TubeLines & the PPP. Firstly, you cannot judge a company by the style of their website. Do you think TubeLines were given the contract based on their website? I think not. Secondly, you say that TubeLines has "very little knowledge on the LU". Which fact(s) have you based that statement on? Please also bear in mind that the majority of front line staff who work for TubeLines would have worked for LUL pre-PPP. Do you think they sacked all the LUL car examiners and replaced them with new ones? No, you'll find it's the complete opposite.
 
T

Tom

Guest
The PPP is a good system, when it works at least. What has it done? Well, what are all the engineering works for and who organises them? Replacement of track, etc, and the PPP contractor in association with London Underground. The PPP has made London Underground better, rather than worse, performance degrades over the time, and as you can tell, Alstom did rather badly when maintaining the tripcocks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top