MegaTrain Bath - London Waterloo

[heart-of-wessex]

Hello all,

I need some help as I'm travelling on Megatrain for the first time next Saturday. A couple of things:

- I don't have a printer and have to reply on the local library computers to print things at 10p p/p. Is it correct that you don't need to print it but can just scribble the reference code onto a bit of paper and show the train manager the code? I guess that is all I need?

- I know someone got fined for getting off the Megatrain at Clapham Junction instead of Waterloo, which is fair enough I understand the getting off early rule, and I'll be getting off at Waterloo anyway. But what's the rules on boarding the train at Trowbridge? There was no option to join Trowbridge and Bath was the closest, are you allowed to board later on in the journey? If you can't it doesn't matter as I would otherwise get a return from Trowbridge - Bath anyway.

- Lastly, how does one get through the barriers at Waterloo?


Any help appreciated!

James.

 

[cookiescrumble]

- I don't have a printer and have to reply on the local library computers to print things at 10p p/p. Is it correct that you don't need to print it but can just scribble the reference code onto a bit of paper and show the train manager the code? I guess that is all I need?

The reservation doesn't need to be printed, as long as you have it with it you in one form or another. I've even seen someone who had it written on the back of their hand

- I know someone got fined for getting off the Megatrain at Clapham Junction instead of Waterloo, which is fair enough I understand the getting off early rule, and I'll be getting off at Waterloo anyway. But what's the rules on boarding the train at Trowbridge? There was no option to join Trowbridge and Bath was the closest, are you allowed to board later on in the journey? If you can't it doesn't matter as I would otherwise get a return from Trowbridge - Bath anyway.

You will need to board at Bath Spa.

megatrain.com and megabusplus.com journeys rely on utilising specified, off-peak journey sections only in order to allow for the excellent value for money provided through their fares. As part of the conditions of travel for these services, you therefore must board and alight at the point shown on your reservation only. If you do board/alight at somewhere other than the station specified, you will be liable to pay the full single fare for the actual journey made, which may be significantly more expensive than the price for the original journey booked. If travelling on services operated by East Midlands Trains, you will be charged the full single fare for the actual journey made. On services operated by South West trains, Penalty fares will apply if passengers alight or board at any other points along the route, other than the stations listed on the tickets.

- Lastly, how does one get through the barriers at Waterloo?

Show your reservation to any of the gateline staff.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Thanks for confirming

So I can just go along with a reservation number noted down, but you say I can show this at the barriers at Waterloo, would they know what it is?

I only ask as I'm sure anyone otherwise would just make some legit-looking code or re-use one they had just to get through the gates no? I can assume they have a way of checking?

 

[sheff1]

So I can just go along with a reservation number noted down, but you say I can show this at the barriers at Waterloo, would they know what it is?

I only ask as I'm sure anyone otherwise would just make some legit-looking code or re-use one they had just to get through the gates no? I can assume they have a way of checking?

I don't know about Waterloo, but at St Pancras I have never had my number scrutinised, let alone cross checked against any sort of master list. In fact, the word 'Megatrain' accompanied by the waving of any old piece of paper seems to be sufficient to get passed through.

 

[cookiescrumble]

Thanks for confirming

So I can just go along with a reservation number noted down, but you say I can show this at the barriers at Waterloo, would they know what it is?

I only ask as I'm sure anyone otherwise would just make some legit-looking code or re-use one they had just to get through the gates no? I can assume they have a way of checking?

The Gateline and Revenue protection staff will have a list of the bookings for that day.

 

[sheff1]

The Gateline and Revenue protection staff will have a list of the bookings for that day.

I assume they would at St Pancras as well then. Perhaps I am just waved through because I have an honest face

 

[cookiescrumble]

I assume they would at St Pancras as well then. Perhaps I am just waved through because I have an honest face

They might not have the time to check it properly. I'm a gateline assistant and very rarely get the time to check them off the list. As long as the number looks good then through you go .

 

[455driver]

the number will be checked by the guard on the train so the gateline staff at Waterloo wont be interested in checking validity, on the return they may take a bit more interst so its best to arrive a bit early and not to turn up 45 seconds before the train is due out!

 

[yorkie]

- I know someone got fined for getting off the Megatrain at Clapham Junction instead of Waterloo, which is fair enough

Who got 'fined' for that? I'd like to hear the details as I am extremely concerned to hear this.

If, by "fined" you mean asked to pay the difference between the fare paid and the price of the cheapest available ticket valid for that journey, then that's a different matter, and is in accordance with the rules.

But if someone has actually been "fined" (or issued a Penalty Fare - which isn't a fine but often mistaken for one) then I want to investigate that, and would appreciate it if you could put that person in contact with me.

The only other similar case I know of was SWT incorrectly issuing a Penalty Fare at Eastleigh. This made national news, and it was not in accordance with the NRCoC or Penalty Fare legislation, and a member of SWT staff who is a member of this forum informed me that the PF was successfully appealed.

It was a PR disaster for SWT, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they did not learn from that.

But what's the rules on boarding the train at Trowbridge? There was no option to join Trowbridge and Bath was the closest, are you allowed to board later on in the journey? If you can't it doesn't matter as I would otherwise get a return from Trowbridge - Bath anyway.

Starting short is not quite the same as finishing short, but in theory you could be asked to pay an excess up to the cheapest walk-up single, in line with the NRCoC.

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you
want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return
ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to
some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant
Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess
fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of
the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to
start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have
used.

So, if SWT have "made it clear" in their "notices and publications" that break of journey is not permitted, you can be charged an excess fare, of the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate fare (which is likely to be a £30.50 SSS, so if your ticket cost £1 you could in theory be asked to pay £29.50).

- Lastly, how does one get through the barriers at Waterloo?.

By showing it to the gateline assistant.

 

[maniacmartin]

megatrain tickets are not issued under the NRCoC. They have their own T&Cs that extend and override parts of the NRCoC. The latest version is available here

10. Bookings for megabusplus services are in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Some of these conditions are clarified or specifically amended below.

a. You must travel wholly between the origin and destination, on the date and at the time(s) in your booking confirmation. If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station you will need to buy a new rail ticket for the entire journey made. This rail ticket will be the price of the most appropriate undiscounted Single rail fare for the journey being made. No refund will be given on the megabusplus ticket or additional ticket purchased. In addition, you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

This makes it clear that megabus tickets can't be excessed, but a whole new ticket must be bought.

 

[Urban Gateline]

megatrain tickets are not issued under the NRCoC. They have their own T&Cs that extend and override parts of the NRCoC. The latest version is available here



This makes it clear that megabus tickets can't be excessed, but a whole new ticket must be bought.

That's interesting, the wording there suggests that a Penalty fare can be charged!

 

[jkdd77]

Megabus claim in their Megatrain condition 10: http://uk.megabus.com/terms.aspx#megatrain
to have, amongst other things, amended the NRCoC to bar refunds or rail travel vouchers for delays, to allow unilateral cancellations of the contract by the TOC and only by the TOC (as per http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69506, amongst other threads), and to allow for PFs (or Anytime Singles) when a passenger starts or stops short on their journey.

The legality of this is, in my view, profoundly dubious, given that conditions 13.5, 13.6 and 13.7 of the Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited franchise agreement
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/182167/sswt-franchise-agreement.pdf
states unequivocally that Megatrain tickets are subject to the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement. The TSA in turn defines the NRCoC as a singular document which applies to the contract for travel formed by the sale of a rail ticket and which cannot be unilaterally amended by any one TOC to the detriment of a passenger.

The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement states:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/TSA V9_4 - Main Agreement (Volume 1).pdf

8-12 CONDITIONS AND BYE-LAWS
(1) Prohibition on restricting the Purchaser's rights
An Operator must not publish any conditions which apply to the Purchaser of a Fare, Reservation or an Upgrade, and must not pass any bye-laws or operate any procedures, which restrict or purport to restrict the rights that the Purchaser would otherwise have under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or the CIV Rules.

There is a section in the TSA which states that the NRCOC applies as supplemented, modified or replaced from time to time, but it is clear from the Schedules: http://www.redtapechallenge.cabinet...s/2011/11/TSA-V9-3-The-Schedules-Volume-2.pdf
that this applies to official modifications rather than unilateral modifications.

2.1(d) Tickets and Reservations covered by this Agreement shall be sold subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage...

27 NATIONAL RAIL CONDITIONS OF CARRIAGE
The Agent shall not waive or vary or purport to waive or vary the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or any other terms and conditions to which any Rail Product is subject

Not all of Megatrain condition 10 is in direct conflict with rights granted by the NRCoC, and, where no conflict exists, the Megatrain conditions would continue to apply as normal; indeed, Megatrain condition 10 itself acknowledges that the 'Megatrain' ticket is sold subject to the NRCoC, albeit subject to its so-called "clarifications and amendments". However, where an irreconcilable conflict does exist (as with the charging of PFs to passengers who 'stop short'), it is my opinion that the conflicting Megatrain condition is voided and the rights under the NRCoC prevail.

In short, therefore, I am not surprised that the Eastleigh passenger referred to by yorkie won his appeal, and strongly believe that the Clapham Junction passenger would also win any appeal, if it is not too late (or, at least in theory, a county court claim for recovery of the unlawful PF paid).

That said:
1) staff are never under any obligation to sell an excess fare if the passenger has passed an opportunity to pay, (such a refusal is most likely if fare evasion is suspected, in which case a passenger will likely be reported for prosecution);
2) a passenger who uses a Megatrain ticket to start or stop short does not present a valid ticket on demand (and so is guilty of the byelaw 18 offence),
3) a passenger who uses such a ticket with the intent to save money on the advertised A to B fare is almost certainly guilty of fare evasion, and;
4) notwithstanding the above extracts from the relevant regulatory documents, a passenger who is nonetheless charged a PF or Anytime Single, subject to unilateral cancellation of contract, or denied compensation for delays of more than 60 minutes, may face substantial practical difficulties in obtaining a remedy, since a county court claim carries significant financial risks and may not be cost effective.

For those reasons, I could not and do not advise that a passenger attempt to board at Trowbridge on a Megatrain ticket from Bath Spa to London Waterloo.

 

[maniacmartin]

This is a complex issue and has come up in other threads. Google for megatrain nrcoc to see them. This thread is interesting.

Stagecoach Plc trading as Megabus/Megatrain sells the tickets, for seats it has block bought from its' child company Stagecoach South West Trains Ltd. However, Stagecoach Plc is not a signatory to the TSA, not being a franchise holder itself.

I believe that there is a legal loophole that Stagecoach use to justify their T&Cs; something to do with Scottish law, as Stagecoach Plc are based in Scotland and all Megabus/train ticket sales are governed by Scots law.

That's the extent of my sketchy knowledge on this I'm afraid.

 

[jkdd77]

The section of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement on agency expressly provides that where a TOC (in this case, Stagecoach South West Trains Ltd) sells a ticket through an agent (in this case, Stagecoach Plc trading as Megabus/Megatrain), the tickets are sold, and the contract for travel entered into, subject to the NRCoC and, as per the section 27 I quoted in my previous post, the agent ('Megatrain') has no authority to alter the NRCoC.

Furthermore, the NRCoC itself states:

Governing law
These Conditions will be governed by English law, except where a ticket is bought in Scotland for travel wholly within Scotland, in which case these Conditions will be governed by Scots law.

Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

Again, these are Conditions which the 'Megatrain conditions', which purport to provide for travel to be subject to the NRCoC except where "varied by Megatrain conditions", make no attempt to "waive" or "vary" .

Furthermore, the SWT franchise agreement and the TSA agreement both state that they are subject to English law.

Indeed, it would be curious in the extreme for a contract for travel between an English passenger and an English TOC for travel wholly within England to be subject to Scots law!

In any case, the actual contract for travel is entered into between the passenger and the TOC (with Stagecoach Plc acting as a mere agent, not dissimilar to thetrainline.com), as is made clear both in the NRCoC and in the TSA, which further provides that the contract so formed contains the NRCoC as part of its terms, and prohibits the TOCs from removing passenger NRCoC rights save where expressly permitted to do so.

Rail tickets are sold subject to statutory and regulatory provisions, and hence the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Terms Regulations 1999 do not apply to the consequent contract for travel. However, if Stagecoach attempt to claim that their 'Megatrain' tickets are not subject to the (actual) NRCoC , the TSA, or the relevant franchise agreement, then, by their own logic, the UTCCR would have to apply after all, and the conflicting conditions would be quashed as an unfair contractual term. In short, Stagecoach and SWT cannot have it both ways, by picking and choosing when they are subject to "relevant regulatory and statutory provisions".

Finally, the seeming success of the Eastleigh passenger in winning his appeal implies that the relevant appeals body (presumably IAS) does not consider the supposed 'modification' of the NRCoC to be valid; otherwise, the PF would have been upheld.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't see how the the TSA is relevant.

It is an agreement between the TOCs and Rail Settlement Plan Ltd. It is also specified in TOCs' franchise agreements, which are presumably contracts between the government (DfT) and the TOC. But the NRCoC doesn't refer back to the TSA.

A megatrain ticket holder is not a party to the TSA or franchise agreement, so surely the only people who can hold them accountable to its terms are other TOCs, RSP or the DfT.

Or am I missing something?

 

[jkdd77]

I don't see how the the TSA is relevant.

It is an agreement between the TOCs and Rail Settlement Plan Ltd. It is also specified in TOCs' franchise agreements, which are presumably contracts between the government (DfT) and the TOC. But the NRCoC doesn't refer back to the TSA.

A megatrain ticket holder is not a party to the TSA or franchise agreement, so surely the only people who can hold them accountable to its terms are other TOCs, RSP or the DfT.

Or am I missing something?

Ultimately, the contract for travel is between the passenger and the TOC (with the ticket seller, if not the TOC, acting as agent), and this contract is governed by the actual NRCoC, which cannot be modified and which includes the provisions on excess fares quoted above by yorkie, and a contractual term may be quashed and held to be void where it is contrary to statutory regulation or public policy (which would seem to be the case where the contractual terms in question are effectively forbidden by the TSA or franchise agreement).

 

[yorkie]

The NRCoC, TSA and Penalty Fare rules cannot simply be disregarded in the manner that is being suggested, and I am surprised that such suggestions are being made.

 

[jb]

The only other similar case I know of was SWT incorrectly issuing a Penalty Fare at Eastleigh. This made national news, and it was not in accordance with the NRCoC or Penalty Fare legislation, and a member of SWT staff who is a member of this forum informed me that the PF was successfully appealed.

It was a PR disaster for SWT, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they did not learn from that.

It was a PR disaster only because the public want both cheap tickets and the ability to ride roughshod over the terms and conditions thereof if they feel like it.

 

[Blindtraveler]

changing tack a little, something that is unclear and I wonder if anybody has tried is0any form of split ticketing involving a megatrain ticket? For example, buying a megatrain on the 12%05 from Carlisle to Birmingham but actually starting your journey with the appropriate ticket at Haymarket at 10:56? Are you breaking the megatrain rules by doing this?↲

 

[causton]

Are you breaking the megatrain rules by doing this?

I would assume not, as by their rules they say they follow the NRCoC subject to their amendments, and I assume the amendments don't include splitting tickets!

 

[jb]

changing tack a little, something that is unclear and I wonder if anybody has tried is0any form of split ticketing involving a megatrain ticket? For example, buying a megatrain on the 12%05 from Carlisle to Birmingham but actually starting your journey with the appropriate ticket at Haymarket at 10:56? Are you breaking the megatrain rules by doing this?↲

Perhaps just to show I'm not completely biased in favour of the operators, I'd speculate they'd say something ridiculous like you have to get off the train and on again at Carlisle.

 

[jkdd77]

The NRCoC, TSA and Penalty Fare rules cannot simply be disregarded in the manner that is being suggested, and I am surprised that such suggestions are being made.

Unfortunately, this can happen in practice due to the ineffectiveness of Passenger Focus and the DfT, as also illustrated by several TOCs getting away for years with imposing weekday evening restrictions on 'regulated SVRs' from stations which are not 'London stations' for the purposes of fares regulation (e.g. Virgin previously imposing weekday evening restrictions on regulated SVRs from Milton Keynes).

As for passengers wanting both cheap tickets and the ability to disregard conditions [in this case, the prohibition on BoJ] when they feel like it, that may be so, and is to be deprecated, but TOCs are obliged to act in a lawful manner in response.

Charging an excess fare is lawful, and reporting for consideration of prosecution is lawful, but I do not believe that charging a PF is lawful in these specific circumstances, since it would clearly contradict rule 7.7 of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002.

7.7 Except when he or she is applying rule 6.7, an authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare if this would conflict with the rights given to the person by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

In this case, the right, under Condition 16, is to merely be charged an excess fare, and the definition of 'National Rail Conditions of Carriage' in Rule 2(i) of the Penalty Fares Rules clearly refers only to the current, nationally applicable NRCoC.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Perhaps just to show I'm not completely biased in favour of the operators, I'd speculate they'd say something ridiculous like you have to get off the train and on again at Carlisle.

Which is certainly a knovel way of dealing with it but a darn site simpler than what I currently do which is go down on the TPE an hour before and wate for the VT Service meaning my journey time is extended to the same as if I went direct with XC but with half the hassle and the chance to buy a cold beer thatsactually cold!↲