Memories of Docklands Trolleybuses

[Busaholic]

When I was a lad in the 1950s, the two foot tunnels under the Thames were from Woolwich to North Woolwich and Greenwich to North Greenwich respectively. Yes, North Greenwich was on the Isle of Dogs but the exit of the tunnel was in North Greenwich, from which you got a stupendous view over the Thames to the Royal Naval Hospital, the Royal Observatory, Greenwich Park etc. If you were a trolleybus fan (and I was) then you could see the silent beasts, but as I had a bike with me I could never travel on one, even if I'd had the money to do so.

 

[Taunton]

from which you got a stupendous view over the Thames to the Royal Naval Hospital, the Royal Observatory, Greenwich Park etc.

The stupendous view is still there. Add the Cutty Sark to it. We take all our foreign visitors down there before walking them through the foot tunnel, and they always take loads of photos.

If you were a trolleybus fan (and I was) then you could see the silent beasts, but as I had a bike with me I could never travel on one, even if I'd had the money to do so.

Only at Woolwich, no trolleybuses either side at Greenwich. London apparently never cracked trolleybus or tram wires over the dock lifting bridges on the Isle of Dogs and elsewhere.

 

[Busaholic]

The stupendous view is still there. Add the Cutty Sark to it. We take all our foreign visitors down there before walking them through the foot tunnel, and they always take loads of photos.
Only at Woolwich, no trolleybuses either side at Greenwich. London apparently never cracked trolleybus or tram wires over the dock lifting bridges on the Isle of Dogs and elsewhere.

Not quite- although I never saw them there, the 677 trolleybus would have got very close to the North Greenwich tunnel entrance on its way round the 'dog leg' to Cubitt Town on the eastern side. By the time I used the Greenwich tunnel, it was the replacement RT bus operated 277 which later got extended through to Poplar i.e. a complete circuit of the Isle of Dogs: even then, Routemaster buses weren't allowed over the bridge at Cubitt Town because of their extra width. The well-known chronicler and photographer of buses from the 1960s onwards, Jim Blake, was for a time a conductor at Clapton Garage, the 277's home, and provides the evidence that the 277 never saw an RM, despite the route being on its blinds: that is, until recent times with a rerouted 277 and Underground strikes providing the opportunity for strange workings.

 

[Taunton]

Not quite- although I never saw them there, the 677 trolleybus would have got very close to the North Greenwich tunnel entrance on its way round the 'dog leg' to Cubitt Town on the eastern side. By the time I used the Greenwich tunnel, it was the replacement RT bus operated 277 which later got extended through to Poplar i.e. a complete circuit of the Isle of Dogs: even then, Routemaster buses weren't allowed over the bridge at Cubitt Town because of their extra width.

I'm not really a bus cognoscenti, but I understood that the trolleybus system terminated at a place called "West India Docks", just by what is now West Ferry DLR, and beyond there round The Island had always been buses; when the trolleybus was replaced by diesel buses that was the moment this route was extended further round to Cubitt Town.

The bridge over the entrance lock at Cubitt Town was, like the others, notably narrow and single lanes, until it was replaced in the 1970s by the modern structure known as the Blue Bridge. There's an extensive illustrated article here about Island bridges over the years, plenty of old buses, not a trolleybus wire to be seen.

The Bridges of the Isle of Dogs

Ask most people to name the old road bridges on the Island, and they will probably mention Kingsbridge, the Blue Bridge (or its predecessor), the Glass Bridge (or its predecessor) and the swing-bri…

islandhistory.wordpress.com

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not really a bus cognoscenti, but I understood that the trolleybus system terminated at a place called "West India Docks", just by what is now West Ferry DLR, and beyond there round The Island had always been buses; when the trolleybus was replaced by diesel buses that was the moment this route was extended further round to Cubitt Town.

The bridge over the entrance lock at Cubitt Town was, like the others, notably narrow and single lanes, until it was replaced in the 1970s by the modern structure known as the Blue Bridge. There's an extensive illustrated article here about Island bridges over the years, plenty of old buses, not a trolleybus wire to be seen.

The Bridges of the Isle of Dogs

Ask most people to name the old road bridges on the Island, and they will probably mention Kingsbridge, the Blue Bridge (or its predecessor), the Glass Bridge (or its predecessor) and the swing-bri…

islandhistory.wordpress.com

I think you're right - I'd somehow got it into my head that the trolleybuses penetrated further than they did. As I said, I hadn't got any personal memories of it.

 

[PeterC]

I think you're right - I'd somehow got it into my head that the trolleybuses penetrated further than they did. As I said, I hadn't got any personal memories of it.

Memory has played similar tricks on me. I have checked my collection of historic maps, the 277 section around the peninsular to Cubit Town was replacing some journeys on the 58 not the the 677.

 

[Taunton]

We still have some issues with bus services when the remaining lift bridge, the Blue Bridge, is raised. Back in 1939 there were five swing/lift bridges into the docks, and I always understood (again you lot tell me) that the bus round The Island was a separate route so as not to impact the rest of the service, when it "Got a Bridger", to use the local expression. By the time that bus was extended down to Cubitt Town the bridges on the west side had all gone, but the continuation up to Poplar was still impacted by the main entrance to the docks, where getting a seagoing freighter plus tug through can take up to 20 minutes. It's quite tight for a big ship, not like whizzing through Tower Bridge.

Even nowadays, if the Blue Bridge goes up it's generally quicker to u-turn and go round by West Ferry.

 

[341o2]

One oddity as a result of change of policy regarding trolleybuses, in 1944 it was announced that there would be no more tram to trolleybus conversions, the remaining trams were replaced by RT buses, was that there was an isolated pair of trolleybus routes serving Erith and Dartford out of Bexleyheath garage, when vehicles needed overhauling, they would be towed across the Woolwich Free Ferry to join the main system. Had the original proposals been followed, these routes would be part of the main system.

Some trolleybuses on these routes indeed were exotic and non standard, being destined for South Africa but as it was deemed to be too dangerous to ship them, they ended up at Ilford depot.

 

[341o2]

Memory has played similar tricks on me. I have checked my collection of historic maps, the 277 section around the peninsular to Cubit Town was replacing some journeys on the 58 not the the 677.

I remember it as route 277A

 

[John Webb]

…….Only at Woolwich, no trolleybuses either side at Greenwich. London apparently never cracked trolleybus or tram wires over the dock lifting bridges on the Isle of Dogs and elsewhere.

Woolwich (the main part on the south side) had the two routes 696 and 698 which were isolated from any other part of the trolleybus system.
At North Woolwich there were the 669, 685 and 569 routes. These started in 1938, several years after the early 1930s 'Silvertown Way' had been opened from Canning Town to Silvertown. This road, mostly elevated, bypassed a swing bridge at the Connaught Road crossing between the Royal Victoria and the Royal Albert docks, so there was no complication of trying to take the wires across a moving bridge. The trolleybuses to North Woolwich were removed in 1960, a year after the two routes on the south side had been closed down.

 

[PeterC]

I remember it as route 277A

277A ran from 1974 until 1976 according to Ian Armstrong's London Bus Routes website.

 

[Busaholic]

One oddity as a result of change of policy regarding trolleybuses, in 1944 it was announced that there would be no more tram to trolleybus conversions, the remaining trams were replaced by RT buses, was that there was an isolated pair of trolleybus routes serving Erith and Dartford out of Bexleyheath garage, when vehicles needed overhauling, they would be towed to and across the Woolwich Free Ferry to join the main system. Had the original proposals been followed, these routes would be part of the main system.

Some trolleybuses on these routes indeed were exotic and non standard, being destined for South Africa but as it was deemed to be too dangerous to ship them, they ended up at Poplar and Bow depots.

I never saw the 'South African' trolleybuses, because they were purely allocated to Ilford Depot, and its routes were just too far away for me to visit by 1959, after which they (and indeed the depot) were gone, and all those trolleys were consigned to George Cohen's scrapyard at Charlton, whose premises were never quite passed by trolleybuses, only the very last of London's tram routes.

On the bus route round the Isle of Dogs, that was the 56 with 'lazy' blinds worked out of one of my absolute favourite bus garages, Poplar Athol Street (code C). I never went on it, but saw buses on it waiting at the Blackwall Tunnel offside road stands, The buses I remember were the Leyland RTLs which were primarily for the Blackwall Tunnel routes 108/A with their specially reinforced tyres, so all buses at C had these tyres: their only other route was the Rotherhithe Tunnel irregular 82.

 

[Taunton]

When the Blue Bridge was rebuilt in relatively recent times the road up the east side was closed for some considerable time, and passengers had to walk between the two sides over an apparently spindly temporary wooden footbridge which children of the era have said filled them with dread they would fall into the water. This may be the division of the bus route into two parts, on either side, described above.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Ilford depot went, in terms of not being used by the buses post conversion, but I think it is still standing as a building.

 

[PeterC]

Ilford depot went, in terms of not being used by the buses post conversion, but I think it is still standing as a building.

It had a good run but, sadly, was demolished in 2014. The site is now a school.

 

[AM9]

It had a good run but, sadly, was demolished in 2014. The site is now a school.

Here is possibly one of the very last views of the Ilford Depot: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...GVCCOzZw!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Dated June 2014, it shows the southern wall of the original tram depot on the corner of Perth Road just before it was demolished. The depot was built in 1903 by Ilford UDC for their two tram routes. The LPTB converted the route to trolleybuses in 1938 and following some loaned trolleys being used, the frustrated order for trams for South Africa meant that these were deplyed on the 691 & 693 routes. Apart from having half tinted windows and being 8ft wide, the 'SA' buses as they became known unlike most other types in London, they didn't have any batteries so if they came off the wires and the arms couldn't reach the wires to put them back on, it called for the recovery vehicle, which I can remember seeing a few times.
My grandfather drove the trams, the trolleys and for a short while the RTs on the 169 and 193 routes, that replaced the trolleys on 19th August 1959.

Sorry this post is a bit OT but somebody might find it of interest.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Thanks.

 

[Busaholic]

Here is possibly one of the very last views of the Ilford Depot: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5...GVCCOzZw!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Dated June 2014, it shows the southern wall of the original tram depot on the corner of Perth Road just before it was demolished. The depot was built in 1903 by Ilford UDC for their two tram routes. The LPTB converted the route to trolleybuses in 1938 and following some loaned trolleys being used, the frustrated order for trams for South Africa meant that these were deplyed on the 691 & 693 routes. Apart from having half tinted windows and being 8ft wide, the 'SA' buses as they became known unlike most other types in London, they didn't have any batteries so if they came off the wires and the arms couldn't reach the wires to put them back on, it called for the recovery vehicle, which I can remember seeing a few times.
My grandfather drove the trams, the trolleys and for a short while the RTs on the 169 and 193 routes, that replaced the trolleys on 19th August 1959.

Sorry this post is a bit OT but somebody might find it of interest.

I'm sure I won't be the only one to find this interesting. The point about batteries (lack of) on the South African ordered trolleys is quite pertinent, because from what I have read and seen photographed there were regular scheduled movements 'off wire' by ID depot vehicles, so I wonder how they managed. For anyone interested, the SA trollies were of two distinct batches, one originally destined for Durban and the other for Jo'burg. The Durban ones had Leyland chassis and Metro-Cammell bodywork with a sliding door front exit that was sealed off before use in London. There were also darkened windows in part of the bodywork. Incidentally, there was a third route they operated on - Ilford provided a minority allocation on the Chadwell Heath to Bow route 695, with Bow depot providing the majority allocation. The 695 was withdrawn a few months before the trolleybus conversion programme later in 1959, and I suspect the only occasion on which I ever saw one of these was at Stratford on that route.

 

[AM9]

I'm sure I won't be the only one to find this interesting. The point about batteries (lack of) on the South African ordered trolleys is quite pertinent, because from what I have read and seen photographed there were regular scheduled movements 'off wire' by ID depot vehicles, so I wonder how they managed. For anyone interested, the SA trollies were of two distinct batches, one originally destined for Durban and the other for Jo'burg. The Durban ones had Leyland chassis and Metro-Cammell bodywork with a sliding door front exit that was sealed off before use in London. There were also darkened windows in part of the bodywork. Incidentally, there was a third route they operated on - Ilford provided a minority allocation on the Chadwell Heath to Bow route 695, with Bow depot providing the majority allocation. The 695 was withdrawn a few months before the trolleybus conversion programme later in 1959, and I suspect the only occasion on which I ever saw one of these was at Stratford on that route.

Thanks for that as well. I remember the recessed windows and panel on the front nearside, but didn't realise that they were originally a sliding door. I wasn't that much into the minutae to be aware of the body and chassis types on the trolleys. Since you've mentioned it, the number 695 does ring a bell (no pun intended) but most of the time my grandfather would tell us that he was on Barking to Barkingsides' of Barking to 'Wangey' (by which he meant Wangey Road where the trolleys turned at Chadwell Heath Station), - that usually brough on a snigger from somebody in the family.
I did ride in the front cab of a 691 once to the Green Gate, there was a good view, plenty of room but nothing to sit on.

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks for that as well. I remember the recessed windows and panel on the front nearside, but didn't realise that they were originally a sliding door. I wasn't that much into the minutae to be aware of the body and chassis types on the trolleys. Since you've mentioned it, the number 695 does ring a bell (no pun intended) but most of the time my grandfather would tell us that he was on Barking to Barkingsides' of Barking to 'Wangey' (by which he meant Wangey Road where the trolleys turned at Chadwell Heath Station), - that usually brough on a snigger from somebody in the family.
I did ride in the front cab of a 691 once to the Green Gate, there was a good view, plenty of room but nothing to sit on.

I'm envious of that cab ride!

 

[simple simon]

somewhere I have photos of the front of the building shortly before it was demolished (ie: before any demolition works had started)

Google Streetview still has 2014 views of the rear entrance, which was in Perth Road.

I hope this link works! https://goo.gl/maps/TanYKcicHPgQSKAz7

Alas however if you try to move down Perth Road alongside the building and towards Ley Street you will end up seeing the school instead of the bus depot.

 

[Busaholic]

Been looking through some printed material recently and rediscovered a comprehensive article entitled 'From river deep to mountain high' about the history of bus services between North Woolwich and Beckton over the years, initially numbered 54 but altered to 101 in 1913, a situation that still pertained almost a century later! The article, by Malcolm Payne, was in the members-only London Bus Magazine, winter 2019/2020 edition, meant to be Part 1 but now left high and dry by the printer going bust, and now Covid. I won't quote anything directly, but East Ham Council had introduced a tram service to the Royal Albert Dock from Wanstead Park Avenue in 1913 and desired to extend it over the single swing bridge to North Woolwich, but the technical difficulties were too great. Payne doesn't say this, but if that tram routeing had gone ahead then it would almost certainly have been converted to trolleybus just prior to WW2, thus bringing trolleybuses to North Woolwich from two different directions, with the possibility at least of 'through' services from Royal Albert Dock to Canning Town, say.

 

[John Webb]

….. East Ham Council had introduced a tram service to the Royal Albert Dock from Wanstead Park Avenue in 1913 and desired to extend it over the single swing bridge to North Woolwich, but the technical difficulties were too great. Payne doesn't say this, but if that tram routeing had gone ahead then it would almost certainly have been converted to trolleybus just prior to WW2, thus bringing trolleybuses to North Woolwich from two different directions, with the possibility at least of 'through' services from Royal Albert Dock to Canning Town, say.

Regarding the East Ham tram service, there is more publicly available information in "East Ham and West Ham Tramways" by the Middleton Press.