MEN article-"Northern Rail is crumbling from the inside out and things are only going to get worse"

[paul1609]

The north WCML isn't even nearly full.

I suspect the southern part of the WCML only provides around 1/2 the seats per hour of Southern region Lines like the Brighton and SEML too!

 

[scrapy]

The north WCML isn't even nearly full.

To run trains 1hr 15 mins apart where others are hourly you need to have effectively 4 different minutes past an hour in each direction that trains can run on that route. The WCML may not be full but this is much less efficient than an hourly service and I still doubt paths can be found based on the current timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To run trains 1hr 15 mins apart where others are hourly you need to have effectively 4 different minutes past an hour in each direction that trains can run on that route. The WCML may not be full but this is much less efficient than an hourly service and I still doubt paths can be found based on the current timetable.

I would be amazed if they could not. There is not a substantially increased service through Preston over what there was before.

If it couldn't drop it to two hourly provided you provide commuter services "off pattern" if necessary. Better that than an unreliable mess.

 

[gazzaa2]

Chaos tonight at Piccadilly after one of the new trains breaks down again and in the rush hour.

That MEN article is hardly an exclusive. I've heard Northern guards pretty much word for word say the same several times.

 

[scrapy]

Am hearing Manchester Victoria dispatchers have now walked out and job stopped. Passenger frustrations boiled over following track circuit failure at Castleton resulting in an assault.

 

[gazzaa2]

Am hearing Manchester Victoria dispatchers have now walked out and job stopped. Passenger frustrations boiled over following track circuit failure at Castleton resulting in an assault.

Staff well within their right to do so if there's abuse or assaults but i'm surprised tempers haven't boiled over more lately. It's an absolute horror show at the moment, trains in the north. People already irritable after a day at work and just want to get home.

 

[Djgr]

Yesterday I was told on this forum that this is not a meltdown. If it looks like a meltdown and sound like a meltdown, it's a meltdown!

 

[Llama]

Am hearing Manchester Victoria dispatchers have now walked out and job stopped. Passenger frustrations boiled over following track circuit failure at Castleton resulting in an assault.

More than one assault. Completely unacceptable and they are 100% right to walk off the job until given the protection they need.

 

[gazzaa2]

More than one assault. Completely unacceptable and they are 100% right to walk off the job until given the protection they need.

It's been a powder keg there for a while, it's always chaos at rush hour and delays, short forms and cancellations daily from the hellish Northern and TPE trains.

It's not fair on the staff.

 

[LowLevel]

We've all had enough of it. Our rostering folks cannot get guards to work trains through Manchester for all the gold in the bank. I refuse to go unless I have to.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Sounds like an enhanced police presence is required at MCV if it’s getting as bad as that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like an enhanced police presence is required at MCV if it’s getting as bad as that.

Or private security. Here's an idea, they could use private security staff for, er, security, instead of pratting about using them for checking tickets?

 

[Llama]

There was a BTP office off the concourse at Victoria, until the late 1990s if I remember rightly. About time there was actually a permanent BTP presence there now.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think I've tried to be positive about rail in the north of England until today.

It isn't getting better. It is getting worse weekly. Major problems and cancellations are now so regularly I plan my life around them. Today two friends agreed both wouldn't renew season ticket next week and they'd instead start car pool from dewsbury to Manchester. Another person has got a new job in Leeds, one was also talking about an office transfer. Surely they are four of many!!!

 

[158756]

Maybe just go back to the 2016 timetable (in terms of Monday to Saturday daytimes) for both Northern and TPE and start again.

Nothing should maybe run across Manchester Victoria or Leeds

Probably might be a good idea to slim down the franchise as well as it’s obviously too big. Either separate it back into two halves, or not as drastic, maybe separate the almost distinct North East and Cumbria part into a separate franchise.

It seems so bad to me that the cuts need to go far beyond the 2016 timetable. E.g Anything currently 2tph should be reduced to 1, long term bus replacement for some routes (not Windermere though because Tim Farron). Nothing running across Victoria probably means there need to be permanent cuts to the Calder Valley/Wigan/Bolton services below 2016 levels, unless TPE are evicted, which in turn means either TPE cease serving Liverpool or major cuts to services at Piccadilly.

Arriva should implement the cuts, and then Arriva should be stripped of all their franchises and banned from ever again bidding for UK government contracts.

 

[SteveM70]

I managed to get out of Victoria on the delayed 1620 to Leeds, possibly one of the last trains out before they walked off the job.

Something of a perfect storm....

- a non-Northern/TPE problem miles away causing delays
- only 4 through platforms meaning the initial delays began to affect every route as platforms 5 and 6 were blocked
- start of the evening peak
- more customers than normal having been drinking
- complete failure of the information screens for at least 20 minutes
- Northern staff reduced to asking passengers to check on their phones as that was seen as the best way to get updates

Then depending on whose version of events you believe, either a physical assault on a member of staff or a prolonged verbal attack. Both of them unacceptable of course

 

[londonmidland]

Looking at the bigger picture, this isn't something that can be fixed quickly or easily. This isn't just about what happened today, but something that happens on a regular basis and has been happening for a while now.

Disruption that can happen miles away can have a massive impact on services in and around Manchester and the North West as well as Leeds and West Yorkshire. At the risk of going off topic, this boils down to too many services on a congested railway, as well as too many 'through' services which were previously separate, independent and more reliable services which have been joined together.

Made worse by TPE and Northern having their staff, training/traction issues as well as an increasing amount of broken down trains/train faults.

 

[SteveM70]

Looking at the bigger picture, this isn't something that can be fixed quickly or easily. This isn't just about what happened today, but something that happens on a regular basis and has been happening for a while now.

Disruption that can happen miles away can have a massive impact on services in and around Manchester and the North West as well as Leeds and West Yorkshire. At the risk of going off topic, this boils down to too many services on a congested railway, as well as too many 'through' services which were previously separate, independent and more reliable services which have been joined together.

Made worse by TPE and Northern having their staff, training/traction issues as well as an increasing amount of broken down trains/train faults.

Agree with all of that. The service is just too fragile. And the other downside of all the through services is that most involve at least one crew change, so more opportunity for things to go wrong

 

[js1000]

At the risk of going off topic, this boils down to too many services on a congested railway, as well as too many 'through' services which were previously separate, independent and more reliable services which have been joined together.

In a nutshell, yes. The Southport to Alderley Edge, Crewe to Liverpool and Blackpool to Manchester 'through' services introduced in May 2018 have been an unmitigated disaster. Too many chokepoints to minimise disruption and too reliant on staff being in the right place at the right time.

 

[Killingworth]

Looking at the bigger picture, this isn't something that can be fixed quickly or easily. This isn't just about what happened today, but something that happens on a regular basis and has been happening for a while now.

Disruption that can happen miles away can have a massive impact on services in and around Manchester and the North West as well as Leeds and West Yorkshire. At the risk of going off topic, this boils down to too many services on a congested railway, as well as too many 'through' services which were previously separate, independent and more reliable services which have been joined together.

Made worse by TPE and Northern having their staff, training/traction issues as well as an increasing amount of broken down trains/train faults.

Delays all around the region and beyond compound upon each other and result in the farcical situation we now see. It's seen as worst in Manchester because more people are inconvenienced and Andy Burnham shouts loudest. The MEN is often quoted but it's not alone. Here in Sheffield both the daily Sheffield Star and weekly Sheffield Telegraph have published articles about rail punctuality in the last week, see the following extract;

"Dore and Totley station in the south of the city is 2,599th out of 2,618 stations for punctuality, according to the website ontimetrains.co.uk, which ranks stations according to how likely passengers are to be left waiting.

Just 13 per cent of trains arrived on time over the last 12 weeks, its statistics show, with 18 per cent running 10 minutes or more late and five percent of services being cancelled.

Sheffield station is also languishing in the bottom 200, ranking 2,454th, with only 30 per cent of services on time and 19 per cent either cancelled or delayed by at least 10 minutes.

And Meadowhall fares even worse, sitting in 2,501st place, with 17 per cent of trains on time and 19 per cent either cancelled or delayed by at least 10 minutes."

In Sheffield's case we have conflicting trains on routes from Liverpool to Norwich, Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport, Leeds to Nottingham and Lincoln, all points north of York to all points south of Birmingham, London to Sheffield, Sheffield to Huddersfield and a whole lot more Northern services - all trying to use 2 tracks in from both north and south. At the north end Meadowhall to Sheffield is another Castlefield situation but there's not even a design on a drawing board to resolve it. To the south there used to be 4 tracks and one might be restored if HS2 ever comes our way. The 4th is currently blocked by a Tesco supermarket and other lineside items that would need to be relocated. Electrification may force some serious thinking about this - by 2035-40?

In the last week the punctuality record has got even worse, prompting The Star's cartoonist to produce the following cartoon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I've tried to be positive about rail in the north of England until today.

It isn't getting better. It is getting worse weekly. Major problems and cancellations are now so regularly I plan my life around them. Today two friends agreed both wouldn't renew season ticket next week and they'd instead start car pool from dewsbury to Manchester. Another person has got a new job in Leeds, one was also talking about an office transfer. Surely they are four of many!!!

I wonder if the bus companies will consider instituting more services like Transdev's Zap and 36? They would make mincemeat of the railway at the moment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems so bad to me that the cuts need to go far beyond the 2016 timetable. E.g Anything currently 2tph should be reduced to 1, long term bus replacement for some routes (not Windermere though because Tim Farron). Nothing running across Victoria probably means there need to be permanent cuts to the Calder Valley/Wigan/Bolton services below 2016 levels, unless TPE are evicted, which in turn means either TPE cease serving Liverpool or major cuts to services at Piccadilly.

Arriva should implement the cuts, and then Arriva should be stripped of all their franchises and banned from ever again bidding for UK government contracts.

I would suggest looking at the pre-1998 timetable for a start, but simplify further. Probably no need to bustitute anything, but you might need buses to add capacity.

The most important thing is to slacken off crew diagrams and keep them really simple. Much of the delay on the "bad TOCs" at the moment seems to be caused by overambitious crew diagrams. Rarely is the unit not there, it tends to be hanging around for the crew. So for instance if they have to do crew changes in central Manchester, institute a minimum layover (on top of PNB) of say 30 minutes between trains to make sure they are ready, and have "hot spares" in the messroom. Cut the service to the level that you can do this while maxing out train lengths.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Delays all around the region and beyond compound upon each other and result in the farcical situation we now see. It's seen as worst in Manchester because more people are inconvenienced and Andy Burnham shouts loudest. The MEN is often quoted but it's not alone. Here in Sheffield both the daily Sheffield Star and weekly Sheffield Telegraph have published articles about rail punctuality in the last week, see the following extract;

"Dore and Totley station in the south of the city is 2,599th out of 2,618 stations for punctuality, according to the website ontimetrains.co.uk, which ranks stations according to how likely passengers are to be left waiting.

Just 13 per cent of trains arrived on time over the last 12 weeks, its statistics show, with 18 per cent running 10 minutes or more late and five percent of services being cancelled.

Sheffield station is also languishing in the bottom 200, ranking 2,454th, with only 30 per cent of services on time and 19 per cent either cancelled or delayed by at least 10 minutes.

And Meadowhall fares even worse, sitting in 2,501st place, with 17 per cent of trains on time and 19 per cent either cancelled or delayed by at least 10 minutes."

In Sheffield's case we have conflicting trains on routes from Liverpool to Norwich, Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport, Leeds to Nottingham and Lincoln, all points north of York to all points south of Birmingham, London to Sheffield, Sheffield to Huddersfield and a whole lot more Northern services - all trying to use 2 tracks in from both north and south. At the north end Meadowhall to Sheffield is another Castlefield situation but there's not even a design on a drawing board to resolve it. To the south there used to be 4 tracks and one might be restored if HS2 ever comes our way. The 4th is currently blocked by a Tesco supermarket and other lineside items that would need to be relocated. Electrification may force some serious thinking about this - by 2035-40?

In the last week the punctuality record has got even worse, prompting The Star's cartoonist to produce the following cartoon.

View attachment 71759

Thank you for posting this, I get sick and tired of hearing how bad it is for poor old Manchester when the situation is just as bad for other major Northern cities.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Delays all around the region and beyond compound upon each other and result in the farcical situation we now see. It's seen as worst in Manchester because more people are inconvenienced and Andy Burnham shouts loudest. The MEN is often quoted but it's not alone. Here in Sheffield both the daily Sheffield Star and weekly Sheffield Telegraph have published articles about rail punctuality in the last week, see the following extract;

"Dore and Totley station in the south of the city is 2,599th out of 2,618 stations for punctuality, according to the website ontimetrains.co.uk, which ranks stations according to how likely passengers are to be left waiting.

Just 13 per cent of trains arrived on time over the last 12 weeks, its statistics show, with 18 per cent running 10 minutes or more late and five percent of services being cancelled.

Sheffield station is also languishing in the bottom 200, ranking 2,454th, with only 30 per cent of services on time and 19 per cent either cancelled or delayed by at least 10 minutes.

And Meadowhall fares even worse, sitting in 2,501st place, with 17 per cent of trains on time and 19 per cent either cancelled or delayed by at least 10 minutes."

In Sheffield's case we have conflicting trains on routes from Liverpool to Norwich, Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport, Leeds to Nottingham and Lincoln, all points north of York to all points south of Birmingham, London to Sheffield, Sheffield to Huddersfield and a whole lot more Northern services - all trying to use 2 tracks in from both north and south. At the north end Meadowhall to Sheffield is another Castlefield situation but there's not even a design on a drawing board to resolve it. To the south there used to be 4 tracks and one might be restored if HS2 ever comes our way. The 4th is currently blocked by a Tesco supermarket and other lineside items that would need to be relocated. Electrification may force some serious thinking about this - by 2035-40?

In the last week the punctuality record has got even worse, prompting The Star's cartoonist to produce the following cartoon.

View attachment 71759

The whole network is that congested. It’s genuinely surprising how much Thameslink affects Sheffield for example, despite the closest they come is Bedford.

Mind you, York ROC do make some baffling regulating decisions of their own.

 

[sheff1]

In a nutshell, yes. The Southport to Alderley Edge, Crewe to Liverpool and Blackpool to Manchester 'through' services introduced in May 2018 have been an unmitigated disaster.

?? Blackpool to Manchester through services have been around for decades.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The whole network is that congested

Which gives rise to the solution, at least away from the South East where train lengths are not maxed out.

 

[sheff1]

Which gives rise to the solution, at least away from the South East where train lengths are not maxed out.

Indeed. When the much trumpeted new Northern trains started to appear in Sheffield I was amazed to see that overcrowded 2-coach services were, in reality, being replaced by more 2-coach trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. When the much trumpeted new Northern trains started to appear in Sheffield I was amazed to see that overcrowded 2-coach services were, in reality, being replaced by more 2-coach trains.

When I saw the number of units Northern had ordered months if not years ago, it was clear to me that they had not ordered enough, hence the 2 car sets which despite the bluster clearly are going to spend a lot of time working singly.

 

[Kite159]

?? Blackpool to Manchester through services have been around for decades.

Unless they meant Hazel Grove services, but I could swear that Blackpool trains terminated there when they were DMUs (with the peak time extensions to Buxton)

 

[158756]

When I saw the number of units Northern had ordered months if not years ago, it was clear to me that they had not ordered enough, hence the 2 car sets which despite the bluster clearly are going to spend a lot of time working singly.

Maybe other bidders wanted more units, but if they did that would be at least part of why they lost, because in common with everything else Northern does the extra units would come nowhere close to covering their costs. Properly diagrammed and without disruption, there is plenty of work for 2 car trains.