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Guinness

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Absolute disgrace. Yet another one of Blair's "let everyone in from the EU" policy. All Blair cares about it is (failing) Economy, illegal wars, Green Tax (Doesn't do anything at all), Gordon Brown and Stealth Tax.

Blair will one day open his eyes and the cesspool he's led Britain into. Give a few more years and labour will be destroyed by either leading Britain into Economic Meltdown, Voted out or Civil War. Not even Blair's "trust me" smile can save us.
 

devon_metro

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Does the government actually care about the British?

Or is it: Let the British suffer and lets look like softies and giver everything and anything to anybody who might like to live in our country. Can't upset the EU now can we :roll:

Joining the EU was the biggest mistake this country ever made.
 

Mojo

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The EU has certaintly opened us up to Economic benefits (free-trade area), as well as better Human rights protection and a check on certain things that have been going down the pan in the UK for ages. Eg: the EU brought in rulings that Water supplies must be inspected, and in one area, something poisonus which could have killed many people was detected.

However, why are we paying money in which is being withdrawn by countries like Spain for Motorways, Museums and the like, whilst we grind to a halt. And let's not forget the Spanish fishermen putting the Cornish fishermen out of the job.

By the way, we didn't *have* to accept these people to come and work here. Most other EU countries imposed limits on who could work here.
 

AlexS

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The EU has certaintly opened us up to Economic benefits (free-trade area), as well as better Human rights protection and a check on certain things that have been going down the pan in the UK for ages. Eg: the EU brought in rulings that Water supplies must be inspected, and in one area, something poisonus which could have killed many people was detected.

However, why are we paying money in which is being withdrawn by countries like Spain for Motorways, Museums and the like, whilst we grind to a halt. And let's not forget the Spanish fishermen putting the Cornish fishermen out of the job.

By the way, we didn't *have* to accept these people to come and work here. Most other EU countries imposed limits on who could work here.

Ha ha, human rights protection that means if a band of people try and rob you on a train and stab a knife through your hand into a table, and you do them some damage in return that lands them in hospital, you're the one on trial.

Same for some **** who hurts themselves falling through a glass roof trying to rob you. The Human Right Act is the biggest mockery since Hitler's enabling act.
 

Mojo

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Who's Human rights is it protecting anyway? The Govt are the only one who can do anything that "steals" someone's Human rights, and the Govt can also repeal the Human Rights Act!

I'm not sure about what you say though, Alex. Lawful Force is a reasonable General Defence under s3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 to make an arrest, and a Common law definition for self defence, protection of another or protection of property.

In deciding whether it's a defence, the courts will look into: -
1. Whether the defendant could have retreated
2. Whether the threat was imminent
3. Whether the defendant made a mistake in thinking he was being attacked

However, what is "reasonable" can be controvertial, and it's up to the jury (a bunch of men & women who can be racist, biased or thick) to decide what's reasonable (in the rare cases something has even gone to court; I'd say the jury would say "Not guilty.") The courts do make allowances for traumatic situations, where even the reasonable man can't judge defensive action to a nicity.
 

AlexS

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What is reasonable should be what disables the attacker so that they can't get back up and hit you again. If they end up dead, a necessary evil perhaps. Some people just don't give up with that kind of thing. It's my property and my person and if someone doesn't stop with reasonable warning given, why shouldn't I be able to use lethal force.
 

David

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Erm, £38k a year to fit windows?
If that's what the company is offering their employees/contracters....

My betting is that the contractor has realised that they are over-running the budget, and has decided to save some money by hiring cheap immigrants.

For example, if the immigrants are employed on a salary of £19k a year (half of the wage paid to the British workers), over the remaining period of the contract they will save £912k in salaries alone. Add in employers NIC, and other benefits, the total saved comes to well over a million pounds. A quick and easy saving there.....

All they have to do then is replace the rest of the workers on the contract with more immigrants, and the potential savings are huge.

Before anyone says this can never happen, it is already happening. Manchester and Liverpool city centers are currently building sites, and there is a lot more foreign labourers and british labourers.
 

devon_metro

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What I don't get is how criminals sometimes have more of a right that the victims.

Why do people in jail get TVs? It's more than a lot of people have.

Prison should be a deterance and it should be a 2m x2m cell and nothing else, but of course...

That's against their human rights :roll:
 

Alekseys

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Yet more (skilled) British workers replaced by immigrants.

It's money-grabbing firms that are directly responsible for the replacements. If comprehensive laws were brought in to address the problem of immigrants replacing skilled workers for lower pay, then it wouldn't be such of an issue.

I don't think we should point the finger at immigrants themselves or our Government's policies, rather at the companies who practice the cheap-labour method.

EU membership has many benefits, including an economy-boosting common market.

Does the government actually care about the British?

Yes, but they need to bother about other people too. We don't "giver everything and anything" to immigrants; it's called free healthcare, and I'd say we owe them that with 27% of health professionals in the NHS being born abroad.

---

Despite what the article seems to suggest, immigration is a sign of a healthy economy creating jobs. And since immigrants are, on average, younger than UK-born people, they do not contribute to Britain's pensions crisis. We'll need extra young workers to carry the economy when this pensions crisis comes, and immigrants are the answer to that.
 

Tom B

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People can't complain about cheap labour taking over from expensive British labour if they then go and demand all their products and services cost less!
 

frasier

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Joining the EU was the biggest mistake this country ever made.

Not at the time, it was exceptionally important to avoid a war, and establish trade links after the Second World War.

I still think it is worth being in the EU, but we need to consider what sort of part we should play in it.

It's money-grabbing firms that are directly responsible for the replacements. If comprehensive laws were brought in to address the problem of immigrants replacing skilled workers for lower pay, then it wouldn't be such of an issue.

Such laws would be impossible to enforce, and would harm our economy anyway. I think the fact is we either need to give the British populace an advantage, or we need to get British people working for less. These are the only two solutions. The "money-grabbing" firms which you blame pretty much everything on - they are trying to make money true. But they are helping our economy, and therefore the British worker and general populace.

I don't think we should point the finger at immigrants themselves or our Government's policies, rather at the companies who practice the cheap-labour method.

Who was doing so?

EU membership has many benefits, including an economy-boosting common market.

Many advantages? Like what? Universally sized banannas?

Yes, but they need to bother about other people too. We don't "giver everything and anything" to immigrants; it's called free healthcare, and I'd say we owe them that with 27% of health professionals in the NHS being born abroad.

This is irrelevant. This is what I always find; both sides of this debate look at it in a too rigid way, either "immigrants" hinder, so all should be punished, or immigrants help us, so they should all be rewarded.

How about rewarding those who do something, and not help those who don't?

Despite what the article seems to suggest, immigration is a sign of a healthy economy creating jobs.

There is no evidence that wide spread immigration helps our economy in the slightest.

And since immigrants are, on average, younger than UK-born people, they do not contribute to Britain's pensions crisis.

They will do in the end, and wide spread immigration has its problems as well.

We'll need extra young workers to carry the economy when this pensions crisis comes, and immigrants are the answer to that.

The key here is workers. You are generalising too much - not all immigrants can help us, just like not all hinder us.
 

David

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EU membership has many benefits, including an economy-boosting common market.

Many advantages? Like what? Universally sized banannas?

That and stupid laws being foisted upon us. Oh, and I nearly forgot about other countries taking our money....

Despite what the article seems to suggest, immigration is a sign of a healthy economy creating jobs.

There is no evidence that wide spread immigration helps our economy in the slightest.

True. Since the EU was expanded to include some Easter European countries, unemployment has risen by approximately 1 million in this country. Also, the immigrants live as frugaly as possible, so they can sent as much as possible to their families back home. I don't see how people on lower wages, and sending money out of the country boosts our economy.
 

frasier

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True. Since the EU was expanded to include some Easter European countries, unemployment has risen by approximately 1 million in this country. Also, the immigrants live as frugaly as possible, so they can sent as much as possible to their families back home. I don't see how people on lower wages, and sending money out of the country boosts our economy.

It is worth remembering however that some immigrants, perhaps even the majority, do contribute to our economy postiviely, in that they pay their taxes, and are generally positive to our society. The problem, as always, is dealing with those who are not are not a positive influence to our society - whether they be immigrants or not.
 

47205

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People can't complain about cheap labour taking over from expensive British labour if they then go and demand all their products and services cost less!

There'll never be lower prices, as the average UK earning is rising, producers will be able to sell things for more as people will still be able to buy it at the increased price on their increased pay. The producers simply do it as a way of saving as much money as is possbile. If anyone has read 'An Inspector Calls' by J.B Priestley they'll know what I mean...
 

Tom B

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Yes, I have read An Inspector Calls.

It is true that manufacturers would continue to reduce costs, however there is continual pressure from the public to reduce prices - so costs must be cut and this often means employing cheaper labour.

So you hear people whinging about projects overspending, and then whinge when they cut costs to meet the budget...
 
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